I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Imp said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > The thing with the tales of balls that hit the flagstick and stayed out, you really do NOT know if they would have gone in without the stick. You can make a guess, but you don't know. For me this year, I've seen three or maybe four putts that hit the stick and stayed out when I thought they had a chance to go in. Not "definitely", but I thought they had a chance. There's also a chance that they could have gone 4 feet past, instead of stopping 12 inches away. I've seen lots hit the stick and go in, and I've seen a fair number hit the stick when they were clearly going too fast, and end up pretty close to the hole. On balance, I'd say that the flagstick has helped more often than it has hurt. Even so, I'm happy to take it out when I'm absolutely certain I can control my speed properly, meaning putts within about 15 feet.

> >

> > Do not know? I missed an 8-inch birdie tap-in off the middle of the flag. That was the last time. Pitched it to 8-inches and figured I’d “save time” by not pulling the stick with a gimme of a putt. Nope.

> >

> > All 12 of my misses, and many of the others I’ve seen, I know 100% they would have been in. These aren’t 40-footers. They are 6 feet, 8 feet and closer. Putts that have absolutely the correct speed and happen to the glance the stick, that is STILL in the middle of the hole, and stay out.

> >

> > My friend is a scratch and he’s a faster learner than I am. He had TWO glance the stick and stay out before he became an always out putter. The first he was sure he made, but chalked it up to a freak break. The second he absolutely knew he made. If it happens twice, it’s no longer an anomaly.

> >

> > If I weren’t playing for money every single round, then I’d likely not pull the flag. For posting purposes, there’s not much difference between an 80 or 81 in the rounds that the stick keeps one out. They are few and far between.

> >

> > But playing for money, I don’t want ANY extra shots. Every shot costs money or makes money in some way. To think that not pulling the flag could end up costing me a chance at $20, $50, $100+? No way.

> >

> Your results appear to be an anomaly. I'm not really questioning your results, more as to find out why your results seem to have a higher percentage of refusals. You usually play the same course, right?

>

> 1) What's the flag stick material made out?

>

> 2) And I know this may be a big ask, but... is it a confirming diameter at the hole where the ball would come in contact with it? Supposed to be 1/2" wide where the ball would contact it, and no more. So, to be safe, usually about 1" above the surface where contact would occur and below (but usually higher). Go full Bryson (I know, no one goes full Bryson) but... bring some calipers in your bag. Measure 1" above the surface of the green.

>

> 3) If it's a tapered stick, is it possible the cup may be sunk deeper than it should?

>

> 4) You're not playing oversized balls like the Magna?

>

> --kC

 

Not really that much of an anomaly. It happened to me at the first of the year once. After that miss, pin is out always for me unless I don't care (solo rounds when it doesn't matter, a giggles round, etc...). The most important factors seem to be pin composition, pin diameter, and pin orientation. In windier climes the pins tend to be fat and metal. They reject more balls. The skinny, flimsy sticks are much more compliant and retain more balls. If you add the pin effects to a bit of confirmation bias you get the wide variation in opinion seen in this thread (and many others).

[Imp]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Imp said:

> >

> > 2) And I know this may be a big ask, but... is it a confirming diameter at the hole where the ball would come in contact with it? Supposed to be 1/2" wide where the ball would contact it, and no more. So, to be safe, usually about 1" above the surface where contact would occur and below (but usually higher). Go full Bryson (I know, no one goes full Bryson) but... bring some calipers in your bag. Measure 1" above the surface of the green.

>

> Just to be accurate, the flagstick may be no more than 0.75 inches in diameter from a point 3 inches above the green surface to the bottom of the cup.

> https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/equipment-rules-2019/equipment-rules/equipment-rules.html#!ruletype=er&section=rule&partnum=8&rulenum=1

> Most flagsticks I see are 1/2", but a larger one (3/4") would impact the response. I once did a google search for commercially available flagsticks, and didn't see any non-conforming flagsticks available.

>

>

Well then....

 

Dave Pelz: Science proves you should leave flagstick in

 

"The diameter of a standard flagstick is 0.5” (some pins taper to ¾” and even 1” above the hole). If you look at the space left for a golf ball, the 2.125” half-hole minus the 0.25” half-pin, leaves 1.875” between the cup edge and the pin. Golf balls are 1.68” in diameter."

 

https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

 

I took "standard" as that's the final number (working with standards in industry and production). Sure, my fault for not checking USGA.

 

So, if it *can be up to ".75"*, that's a good argument to standardize the width to one size only.

 

--kC

[davep043]

> @Imp said:

> Well then....

>

> Dave Pelz: Science proves you should leave flagstick in

>

>

"The diameter of a standard flagstick is 0.5” (some pins taper to ¾” and even 1” above the hole). If you look at the space left for a golf ball, the 2.125” half-hole minus the 0.25” half-pin, leaves 1.875” between the cup edge and the pin. Golf balls are 1.68” in diameter."

>

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

>

> I took "standard" as that's the final number (working with standards in industry and production). Sure, my fault for not checking USGA.

>

> So, if it *can be up to ".75"*, that's a good argument to standardize the width to one size only.

>

> --kC

 

Sloppiness on the part of Pelz doesn't exactly encourage me to trust his conclusions. I'm pretty sure all of us have heard about the Pelz study, as well as the Molinari study, studies done by other golf websites, and a bunch of others. Each one produces different conclusions, and none of them are definitive. We can each find something from an "authority" to back up our own personal preference. MY conclusion is that when distance control is a potential issue, the flagstick is more likely to help than it is to hurt, mostly by stopping "too fast" putts closer to the hole. I've read folks say that **no competent player ever hits a putt 4 feet or more past the hole,** but those people are just flat wrong, even PGA Tour pros do it sometimes. If distance control is nearly certain, the flagstick can only hurt. If the speed is so good that you'll make 100% of the putts that hit the hole, you can only go down from 100%.

 

As far as further standardizing flagsticks, I don't think its necessary.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Imp said:

> > Well then....

> >

> > Dave Pelz: Science proves you should leave flagstick in

> >

> >

"The diameter of a standard flagstick is 0.5” (some pins taper to ¾” and even 1” above the hole). If you look at the space left for a golf ball, the 2.125” half-hole minus the 0.25” half-pin, leaves 1.875” between the cup edge and the pin. Golf balls are 1.68” in diameter."

> >

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> >

> > I took "standard" as that's the final number (working with standards in industry and production). Sure, my fault for not checking USGA.

> >

> > So, if it *can be up to ".75"*, that's a good argument to standardize the width to one size only.

> >

> > --kC

>

> Sloppiness on the part of Pelz doesn't exactly encourage me to trust his conclusions. I'm pretty sure all of us have heard about the Pelz study, as well as the Molinari study, studies done by other golf websites, and a bunch of others. Each one produces different conclusions, and none of them are definitive. We can each find something from an "authority" to back up our own personal preference. MY conclusion is that when distance control is a potential issue, the flagstick is more likely to help than it is to hurt, mostly by stopping "too fast" putts closer to the hole. I've read folks say that **no competent player ever hits a putt 4 feet or more past the hole,** but those people are just flat wrong, even PGA Tour pros do it sometimes. If distance control is nearly certain, the flagstick can only hurt. If the speed is so good that you'll make 100% of the putts that hit the hole, you can only go down from 100%.

>

> As far as further standardizing flagsticks, I don't think its necessary.

 

Lol. No competent player indeed. I shot 70 yesterday and did it thrice. And made all 3 coming back.

 

But I will say. I’ve still yet to run across a player who wants it left in unless it’s a putt you can’t stop and they think hitting the pin is better than going off the green.

[dpb5031]

> @Imp said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Imp said:

> > >

> > > 2) And I know this may be a big ask, but... is it a confirming diameter at the hole where the ball would come in contact with it? Supposed to be 1/2" wide where the ball would contact it, and no more. So, to be safe, usually about 1" above the surface where contact would occur and below (but usually higher). Go full Bryson (I know, no one goes full Bryson) but... bring some calipers in your bag. Measure 1" above the surface of the green.

> >

> > Just to be accurate, the flagstick may be no more than 0.75 inches in diameter from a point 3 inches above the green surface to the bottom of the cup.

> > https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/equipment-rules-2019/equipment-rules/equipment-rules.html#!ruletype=er&section=rule&partnum=8&rulenum=1

> > Most flagsticks I see are 1/2", but a larger one (3/4") would impact the response. I once did a google search for commercially available flagsticks, and didn't see any non-conforming flagsticks available.

> >

> >

> Well then....

>

> Dave Pelz: Science proves you should leave flagstick in

>

>

"The diameter of a standard flagstick is 0.5” (some pins taper to ¾” and even 1” above the hole). If you look at the space left for a golf ball, the 2.125” half-hole minus the 0.25” half-pin, leaves 1.875” between the cup edge and the pin. Golf balls are 1.68” in diameter."

>

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

>

> I took "standard" as that's the final number (working with standards in industry and production). Sure, my fault for not checking USGA.

>

> So, if it *can be up to ".75"*, that's a good argument to standardize the width to one size only.

>

> --kC

 

...and the Cal Poly study claims you should take it out. The visual of them rolling the ball and off center pin strikes being deflected is pretty compelling, and mirrors what I've seen on the course.

 

Ill acknowledge that both studies have some flaws

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

>

> Lol. No competent player indeed. I shot 70 yesterday and did it thrice. **And made all 3 coming back.**

>

> But I will say. I’ve still yet to run across a player who wants it left in unless it’s a putt you can’t stop and they think hitting the pin is better than going off the green.

And you claim to be a bad putter! (laughing)

I know some reasonably good players who are happy to leave it in all the time. There just seem to be a few combinations of speed and location relative to the center of the hole that produce the "rejections", and nobody is precise enough to control both speed and line well enough to know when they'll happen.

 

[nsxguy]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @chippa13 said:

> > I love how everybody believes they had absolutely perfect putts rejected. I still haven't seen it all year.

>

> It's fairly obvious that there's significant confirmation bias at play on both sides of this discussion. Like a lot of things, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

>

> Personally, I don't like "the look" of the flag stick left in. I have seen putts strike the stick and end up closer to the hole than had it been out, but I've also seen a significant number of breaking putts that in my view would have gone in, glance the stick and get rejected. All in all, I really don't believe there's any significant advantage in either scoring or pace of play to leaving it in.

>

> I've played quite a bit of tournament golf with the Palm Beach County Golf Association and the FSGA this year...lots of really good players. It's notable that in the beginning of the season quite a few of the competitors were leaving the stick in, but more recently very few are doing so. From a practical perspective it's almost as if the rule hadn't changed at this point if you were to watch most players in these comps.

 

"Confirmation bias". Exactly. Frankly the thought that the PIN rejected an 8 inch putt and the player had nothing to do with it is just laughable.

 

I think I've mentioned this before but this reversion (to taking the pin out) was entirely predictable and NO golfer is entirely immune.

 

It's like we remember all the times we hit a tree and the ball ended up right behind it with NO shot available and curse our bad luck - but when that same tree kicks the ball into the fairway we forget all about that one - guess we "deserve" good luck. LMAO

 

Similarly, we hit a putt or a chip too hard and it smacks the stick and the ball drops or stops for an easy tap-in. Who remembers that ? We deserve that, right ? LOL But let us hit the pin once and it comes out and it's the pin's fault it didn't fall.

 

Entirely predictable at pretty much all handicap levels.

 

 

 

[Imp]

Sorry, I wasn't doing this to re-open the argument about the studies, but to instead show where I got the "standard 1/2" from. Can those just studies just go away?

 

--kC

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> >

> > Lol. No competent player indeed. I shot 70 yesterday and did it thrice. **And made all 3 coming back.**

> >

> > But I will say. I’ve still yet to run across a player who wants it left in unless it’s a putt you can’t stop and they think hitting the pin is better than going off the green.

> And you claim to be a bad putter! (laughing)

> I know some reasonably good players who are happy to leave it in all the time. There just seem to be a few combinations of speed and location relative to the center of the hole that produce the "rejections", and nobody is precise enough to control both speed and line well enough to know when they'll happen.

>

 

Yea. I should qualify that and say that I too don’t care in or out from say 12 ft and longer. It’s the 3-8 or so where I actually feel like there’s something blocking the hole and it interferes with my mindset.

 

As for me. I’m now calling myself a “ reformed bad putter “. Lol. I’ve been into an Armlock with a wide low setup which puts my head behind the ball and over the line for 6 weeks or so. And I’ve made everything I looked at. Turns out I could handle the pressure all along. I just couldn’t see the line over the ball. Now I can.

[dpb5031]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @chippa13 said:

> > > I love how everybody believes they had absolutely perfect putts rejected. I still haven't seen it all year.

> >

> > It's fairly obvious that there's significant confirmation bias at play on both sides of this discussion. Like a lot of things, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

> >

> > Personally, I don't like "the look" of the flag stick left in. I have seen putts strike the stick and end up closer to the hole than had it been out, but I've also seen a significant number of breaking putts that in my view would have gone in, glance the stick and get rejected. All in all, I really don't believe there's any significant advantage in either scoring or pace of play to leaving it in.

> >

> > I've played quite a bit of tournament golf with the Palm Beach County Golf Association and the FSGA this year...lots of really good players. It's notable that in the beginning of the season quite a few of the competitors were leaving the stick in, but more recently very few are doing so. From a practical perspective it's almost as if the rule hadn't changed at this point if you were to watch most players in these comps.

>

> "Confirmation bias". Exactly. Frankly the thought that the PIN rejected an 8 inch putt and the player had nothing to do with it is just laughable.

>

> I think I've mentioned this before but this reversion (to taking the pin out) was entirely predictable and NO golfer is entirely immune.

>

> It's like we remember all the times we hit a tree and the ball ended up right behind it with NO shot available and curse our bad luck - but when that same tree kicks the ball into the fairway we forget all about that one - guess we "deserve" good luck. LMAO

>

> Similarly, we hit a putt or a chip too hard and it smacks the stick and the ball drops or stops for an easy tap-in. Who remembers that ? We deserve that, right ? LOL But let us hit the pin once and it comes out and it's the pin's fault it didn't fall.

>

> Entirely predictable at pretty much all handicap levels.

>

>

>

 

These are good points and I mostly agree. Thing is though, in the beginning, many viewed "pin in" as an advantage. TV commentators declared it an advantage as did Pelz, DeChambeau, and Adam Scott. Most are going to go with what they perceive to help them shoot lower scores and I'd like to think are smart enough to process their experiences impartially.

 

In my case I just dont like the "visual" of the stick left in, especially inside of 20'. Some guys actually prefer it as they feel it helps with depth perception.

 

In terms of actual advantage or disadvantage or effect on scoring, my guess is it's pretty much a wash/statistically insignificant.

[Augster]

It’s not really an anomaly. The results I’m seeing are in line with the Golf Digest testing.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

 

BTW, I love the questioning of integrity on the net. Like I’m lying about my 8-inch tap-in that missed off the stick and ended up costing me about $26. I should have lied and told my friends I made it.

[chippa13]

I just don't understand how it is possible for someone to pound an 8 inch putt hard enough to bounce off the stick and not drop.

[Roadking2003]

> @Augster said:

> Most of the guys I play with are flag out guys now inside 30’. We’ve just seen too many made putts get knocked away by the pin. I’m at 12 of them myself this year and that’s when I finally threw in the towel.

 

Wow! You must have an ungodly aggressive putting style. I never see a putt rejected by the pin.

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

>

> But I will say. I’ve still yet to run across a player who wants it left in unless it’s a putt you can’t stop and they think hitting the pin is better than going off the green.

 

I play with a different group. We almost always leave the pin in and NEVER have putts rejected.

[Augster]

How many are you picking up? A picked up putt has a zero percent chance of hitting the stick and coming out.

[farmer]

I play a lot by myself, always leave the pin in, depending on wind, and in hundreds of rounds have never had a putt rolling at the proper speed be rejected by the pin. In the wind, obviously, that changes. I've had putts lip out, but not because of the pin, just because they caught an edge. In any case leaving the pin in or taking it out is not a complicated issue to deal with.

[sui generis]

Astonishing isn't it, that the R&A and USGA figured this out. That the simple option of in/out would work; that Western civilization would survive. They knew, of course, that there would be the posers and prima donnas and the selfish who'd never be satisfied. The rest of us say, "Thanks, RBs for your foresight."

[b.mattay]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > Most of the guys I play with are flag out guys now inside 30’. We’ve just seen too many made putts get knocked away by the pin. I’m at 12 of them myself this year and that’s when I finally threw in the towel.

>

> Wow! You must have an ungodly aggressive putting style. I never see a putt rejected by the pin.

 

Not really, depends on the pins. My course has thick rubber coated wind pins. Anything going more than 2 feet by on a level or uphill putt is getting deflected. I have to consciously die in one foot tap ins after a good chip or else it won’t go in.

 

 

[Newby]

How thick at surface level?

[Mikey5e]

 

>

> Not really, depends on the pins. My course has thick rubber coated wind pins. Anything going more than 2 feet by on a level or uphill putt is getting deflected. I have to consciously die in one foot tap ins after a good chip or else it won’t go in.

>

 

I think this type of pin is an anomaly, and something most golfers don't encounter. For the 'normal' pins, I have only seen them be a benefit to the golfer inre of the ball staying in the hole. If you pound a two foot putt into the pin, well, you get what you deserve. With that being said, I prefer the pin out inside 10 feet due to the hole is more palatable to my eye,but will go either way depending on the group I am in. The beauty of the entire subject here is that I have a choice when it is my turn to putt, nobody is forcing me one way or another.

[CaseyC]

Not sure I understand how a rubber coated pin, that meets the 0.75" dia rule would make a ball bounce off it more than a "regular" pin

[nsxguy]

> @Augster said:

> It’s not really an anomaly. The results I’m seeing are in line with the Golf Digest testing.

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

>

> BTW, I love the questioning of integrity on the net. Like I’m lying about my 8-inch tap-in that missed off the stick and ended up costing me about $26. I should have lied and told my friends I made it.

 

I don't recall anybody saying you're lying about it happening. Just that from 8 inches it's NOT the pin's fault. It's yours.

 

 

[Imp]

> @CaseyC said:

> Not sure I understand how a rubber coated pin, that meets the 0.75" dia rule would make a ball bounce off it more than a "regular" pin

 

The flagstick must not:

 

a. incorporate features, including materials, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball, or

 

b. have features or properties which are designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball

 

I would argue that it doesn't meet a or b. And... It's not fiberglass, plastic., or metal.

 

Got a picture or a link to the MFR? (My search-fu is weak looking for one)

 

--kC

[RainShadow]

My take is it's not saving any time, which was the USGA's reasoning for the change.

I prefer the pin out, and have had 2 or 3 longer putts that should have gone in bounce of the stick only to hang on the edge.

Playing is groups, some want it out, some in. Waste's time if ya ask me.

 

[Mikey5e]

> @RainShadow said:

> My take is it's not saving any time, which was the USGA's reasoning for the change.

> I prefer the pin out, and have had 2 or 3 longer putts that should have gone in bounce of the stick only to hang on the edge.

> Playing is groups, some want it out, some in. Waste's time if ya ask me.

>

 

It's not like you don't have a choice

[scooterhd2]

My only problem is with bad pins that dont sit straight. if they are leaning into your putt, then its bad news bears for me. otherwise if the whole group leaves the pin in we play faster. its ready golf if someone is jumping bunkers. ive only seen a few putts hit the pin and not go in and to be fair i have seen an equal number jump the cup when the pin was out. personally i feel its no advantage or disadvantage, just faster.

[RainShadow]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @RainShadow said:

> > My take is it's not saving any time, which was the USGA's reasoning for the change.

> > I prefer the pin out, and have had 2 or 3 longer putts that should have gone in bounce of the stick only to hang on the edge.

> > Playing is groups, some want it out, some in. Waste's time if ya ask me.

> >

>

> It's not like you don't have a choice

 

I know. I take it out.

[Augster]

I missed two more putts off the flag inside of 4 feet today. Both center cut. One of them was 18 inches. I was playing 9 by myself and not pulling pins to “save time”. No time was saved, and my score suffered.

 

It further reinforced my “always pull the flag” philosophy. Especially with money on the line. I really don’t see how this isn’t happening to the “leave it in” crowd. The only explanation I can come up with is either they are playing to bigger than standard cups, or they are picking up a lot of putts inside 4 feet for “pace of play” purposes. Putt them all out. You’ll see.

[nsxguy]

> @Augster said:

> I missed two more putts off the flag inside of 4 feet today. Both center cut. One of them was 18 inches. I was playing 9 by myself and not pulling pins to “save time”. No time was saved, and my score suffered.

>

> It further reinforced my “always pull the flag” philosophy. Especially with money on the line. I really don’t see how this isn’t happening to the “leave it in” crowd. The only explanation I can come up with is either they are playing to bigger than standard cups, or they are picking up a lot of putts inside 4 feet for “pace of play” purposes. Putt them all out. You’ll see.

 

I thought you'd already decided to pull the pin all the time after the pin last rejected your 18 inch putt. Changed your mind ? LOL

 

And once again, IMO, if they WERE center cut and rejected, had you pulled the pin they would've been going too fast to stay in the hole anyway.

 

But it's a personal choice. Do what ya gotta do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and stick to it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[sethdavidsdad]

I said when this rule came out it will eventually slow down play. Sure enough it happened, final group of our club championship one of the three wanted it in everytime. So we were constantly putting the flag in and out of the hole. It was stupid. Finally me and the other guy gave in and started putting with it in for some putts. Personally can’t believe anyone thinks the flag in helps the ball go in the hole. It’s been proven this is wrong. I was just exhausted with the experience especially on the last hole having to put the pin back in for his 10 footer.