I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[rogolf]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Edward_Majorwin said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies.

> > > > I didn't even know this was a common thing until it happened right in front of me a few weeks ago. Dude saw me looking at him so he offered up "yep, that's mine" and put it down all fluffy from a previous tough lie. I looked away and tried to find the 10 other golfers in our group who had just tee'd off...you know, thereby making such an action slightly justifiable, but alas there were only four of us in the group - we had somehow managed to find our balls using just our eyes.

> > > >

> > > > Back on topic I now proceed...thought I'd be putting with pin in all year but have now reverted to removing it for anything inside 15 feet. Nobody I play with can putt worth a darn anyway so everyone agrees with leave it for lags and yank for the deuce attempt.

> > >

> > > I’m telling you they use it. Especially in a hazard. Ball burried in a nest of twigs. “ ah shoot. I need to make sure that’s me ... “ picks it up then clears out all the brush then places it back. Whala clean lie.

> >

> > Exactly, one of my pet peeves as well. But a few guys in our Saturday group don't even do it the way you mention. They do it to other people's ball as well. Usually you can figure out what the brand and number are WITHOUT TOUCHING THE **** BALL. But no.... These bozos have to pick it up and peer closely at it. I'm thinking to myself Joe was the only guy down the right side of the fairway why in the world are you picking it up to look at it!!!!????

>

> Yep. The rolling cheater I describe does that too. Almost as a way of including you in their actions. If that makes sense. So you can’t say anything. I hAd him last weekend on a club comp say this to me. “ if you hit that from there and scuff up your new club you’re an idiot. Move it to the grass “.

>

> I had wiped a drive right to the edge of the woods. Clean lie on hardpan with a few pebbles around. I ignored him. Cleared the pebbles and proceeded to hit a high 9 iron to 6 ft. And then Made the putt. Some scratches on the 9 iron sole. Brand new set of irons. And I don’t give a single shat. Tools not jewels. I’m after birdies.

>

>** I truthfully believe that golf karma exists. And I’m rewarded for playing honest. **

 

It does exist, and I love watching those that complain about their bad lie, bad luck etc. The more you complain, the more you have to complain about! If you want perfect conditions, play "golf" in simulators, not outdoors.

[antip]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > I think the rule may get overturned and revert back to the old way of removing the flag from the cup while putting. First off, I don't think it really saves a whole lot of time if at all. Secondly, damage to the hole is being noticed because hands don't fit down the hole comfortably and rake the sides of the cup both down and back upward and out causing damage to the putting hole.

>

> I sure hope not! It's definitely saving time with all the people I play with. It's great to be able to walk up and putt without worrying about the flag when others aren't ready.

>

> A agree hands don't fit well but there is a trick... Simply reach in from the side opposite the stick and no fit issues. I'm showing all the guys that trick.

 

I agree also. Putting the hand in carefully on the opposite side of the cup to where the ball is makes it much easier to get the ball out without any contact with the sides of the hole. At our club, we had some early problems with holes getting knocked around, mostly caused by thoughtless people jamming their putter (with a lifting tool on the grip end) into the hole without lifting the flag out first or with the putter grip not going in on the vertical line. Some brain-dead behaviours on the course are just mind-boggling. A few months on, the early damage experience is now dramatically improved as people get more experience.

[HatsForBats]

> @hybrid25 said:

> I think the rule may get overturned and revert back to the old way of removing the flag from the cup while putting. First off, I don't think it really saves a whole lot of time if at all. Secondly, damage to the hole is being noticed because hands don't fit down the hole comfortably and rake the sides of the cup both down and back upward and out causing damage to the putting hole.

 

I would rather they relax the rules on flag sticks and/or even increase the size of the hole slightly **gasp** rather than go back to flag stick out when on the green.

[bladehunter]

Wanted to say that I played my state am qualifier Monday and didn’t say a word about pin in or out and my 3 playing partners immediately wanted it out. So I started noticing other groups. Didn’t see one putt made with pin in. Just an observation

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @longballjs said:

> > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> And yet in 2007

> https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

>

 

I could not find any data to study. Was there?

 

There are quite a few of those tests done during past years and the results are neither comparable nor uniform. But what I remember from those past years when I was still actively following pro golf I do remember that almost everyone had the pin removed when putting from the apron even though it would have been allowed to have it in. Chipping is a different animal as the speed is much more difficult to control and there the pin statistically helps in many cases as it stops the ball from travelling too far.

[North Butte]

> @antip said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > I think the rule may get overturned and revert back to the old way of removing the flag from the cup while putting. First off, I don't think it really saves a whole lot of time if at all. Secondly, damage to the hole is being noticed because hands don't fit down the hole comfortably and rake the sides of the cup both down and back upward and out causing damage to the putting hole.

> >

> > I sure hope not! It's definitely saving time with all the people I play with. It's great to be able to walk up and putt without worrying about the flag when others aren't ready.

> >

> > A agree hands don't fit well but there is a trick... Simply reach in from the side opposite the stick and no fit issues. I'm showing all the guys that trick.

>

> I agree also. Putting the hand in carefully on the opposite side of the cup to where the ball is makes it much easier to get the ball out without any contact with the sides of the hole. At our club, we had some early problems with holes getting knocked around, mostly caused by thoughtless people jamming their putter (with a lifting tool on the grip end) into the hole without lifting the flag out first or with the putter grip not going in on the vertical line. Some brain-dead behaviours on the course are just mind-boggling. A few months on, the early damage experience is now dramatically improved as people get more experience.

 

I'm pretty sure we are seeing *less* hole damage for just that reason. A lot of guys (hate to say it but a especially a lot of us older guys) used to gouge the ball out of the hole with the toe of their putter. The edges of the holes were constantly dented and beat up from maybe a couple dozen times a day having that "technique" done to them.

 

They can't do that now. And maybe it's my imagination but if a fresh hole is cut first thing in the morning, by 5-6pm when I'm playing after work it is still pretty decent looking lately. That wasn't the case a year ago.

 

Back when I had chronic back spasms I briefly used one of those suction cups on the end of the putter. I don't think those really do any damage unless you are extremely sloppy with it. But they probably also don't work too well with the flag in.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > > I think the rule may get overturned and revert back to the old way of removing the flag from the cup while putting. First off, I don't think it really saves a whole lot of time if at all. Secondly, damage to the hole is being noticed because hands don't fit down the hole comfortably and rake the sides of the cup both down and back upward and out causing damage to the putting hole.

> > >

> > > I sure hope not! It's definitely saving time with all the people I play with. It's great to be able to walk up and putt without worrying about the flag when others aren't ready.

> > >

> > > A agree hands don't fit well but there is a trick... Simply reach in from the side opposite the stick and no fit issues. I'm showing all the guys that trick.

> >

> > I agree also. Putting the hand in carefully on the opposite side of the cup to where the ball is makes it much easier to get the ball out without any contact with the sides of the hole. At our club, we had some early problems with holes getting knocked around, mostly caused by thoughtless people jamming their putter (with a lifting tool on the grip end) into the hole without lifting the flag out first or with the putter grip not going in on the vertical line. Some brain-dead behaviours on the course are just mind-boggling. A few months on, the early damage experience is now dramatically improved as people get more experience.

>

> I'm pretty sure we are seeing *less* hole damage for just that reason. A lot of guys (hate to say it but a especially a lot of us older guys) used to gouge the ball out of the hole with the toe of their putter. The edges of the holes were constantly dented and beat up from maybe a couple dozen times a day having that "technique" done to them.

>

> They can't do that now.

 

Oh yes, they can!!

[North Butte]

Yikes!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> Wanted to say that I played my state am qualifier Monday and didn’t say a word about pin in or out and my 3 playing partners immediately wanted it out. So I started noticing other groups. Didn’t see one putt made with pin in. Just an observation

 

Doesn't surprise me because they will emulate what they see on TV. Also I bet the round was closer to 5 hours and not 4 hours? Not because of the pin but because of emulation :)

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Wanted to say that I played my state am qualifier Monday and didn’t say a word about pin in or out and my 3 playing partners immediately wanted it out. So I started noticing other groups. Didn’t see one putt made with pin in. Just an observation

>

> Doesn't surprise me because they will emulate what they see on TV. Also I bet the round was closer to 5 hours and not 4 hours? Not because of the pin but because of emulation :)

 

Nope. The SCGA doesn’t mess about. We teed off at 1130 sharp and finished 337. I was home by 440 and I had a 35 minute drive.

 

5 hour rounds aren’t being played by guys at that level. Period. Where the jump goes from that to TV I don’t know. But it’s not at that level. 5 hour rounds locally are caused by drunks or beginners who do not know or do not care that they are holding up the world. Shooting 112 takes time.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Wanted to say that I played my state am qualifier Monday and didn’t say a word about pin in or out and my 3 playing partners immediately wanted it out. So I started noticing other groups. Didn’t see one putt made with pin in. Just an observation

> >

> > Doesn't surprise me because they will emulate what they see on TV. Also I bet the round was closer to 5 hours and not 4 hours? Not because of the pin but because of emulation :)

>

> Nope. The SCGA doesn’t mess about. We teed off at 1130 sharp and finished 337. I was home by 440 and I had a 35 minute drive.

>

> 5 hour rounds aren’t being played by guys at that level. Period. Where the jump goes from that to TV I don’t know. But it’s not at that level. 5 hour rounds locally are caused by drunks or beginners who do not know or do not care that they are holding up the world. Shooting 112 takes time.

 

Nice pace!

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Wanted to say that I played my state am qualifier Monday and didn’t say a word about pin in or out and my 3 playing partners immediately wanted it out. So I started noticing other groups. Didn’t see one putt made with pin in. Just an observation

> > >

> > > Doesn't surprise me because they will emulate what they see on TV. Also I bet the round was closer to 5 hours and not 4 hours? Not because of the pin but because of emulation :)

> >

> > Nope. The SCGA doesn’t mess about. We teed off at 1130 sharp and finished 337. I was home by 440 and I had a 35 minute drive.

> >

> > 5 hour rounds aren’t being played by guys at that level. Period. Where the jump goes from that to TV I don’t know. But it’s not at that level. 5 hour rounds locally are caused by drunks or beginners who do not know or do not care that they are holding up the world. Shooting 112 takes time.

>

> Nice pace!

 

Yep. It was. We did get a warning as well. Had a lost ball twice in the group on our 9 th hole. Then stopped at the turn for potty break and after 10 we saw an official let us know that we were behind and needed to catch up. We never did catch the group in front of us , but we also never saw a group catch up behind us. Was a great pace.

[RainShadow]

I don't like it on putts inside 15ft. Otherwise don't care.

My issue is if I'm away and I want the pin out, the next guy want's it in. Waste of time.

 

[RJ_MJ_JJ]

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> I would rather they relax the rules on flag sticks and/or even increase the size of the hole slightly **gasp** rather than go back to flag stick out when on the green.

**GASP**, indeed!!

 

[zdobson71]

I still take it out for some short chips. Just can’t get used to looking at it!

[RJ_MJ_JJ]

A few days ago, I had a BOMB that hit the pin and pop out while turning into the hole. Might have been 3-4 ft by, downhill. Slightly off-center (half a ball?). I'd like to think it would have gone in the pin out. Had one yesterday, same situation, really similar break and speed, but the pin WASN'T in. BUCKETS. The pin being in is adding an obstacle - seems silly for scoring purposes. **IF** it speeds up your round and you're willing to sacrifice a stroke every 2-3 rounds (maybe?), by all means - you do you.

[nsxguy]

> @RJ_MJ_JJ said:

> A few days ago, I had a BOMB that hit the pin and pop out while turning into the hole. Might have been 3-4 ft by, downhill. Slightly off-center (half a ball?). I'd like to think it would have gone in the pin out. Had one yesterday, same situation, really similar break and speed, but the pin WASN'T in. BUCKETS. The pin being in is adding an obstacle - seems silly for scoring purposes. **IF** it speeds up your round and you're willing to sacrifice a stroke every 2-3 rounds (maybe?), by all means - **you do you**.

 

Of course, you can't be sure they'd have ghone in but by all means, you do you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @RJ_MJ_JJ said:

> A few days ago, I had a BOMB that hit the pin and pop out while turning into the hole. Might have been 3-4 ft by, downhill. Slightly off-center (half a ball?). I'd like to think it would have gone in the pin out. Had one yesterday, same situation, really similar break and speed, but the pin WASN'T in. BUCKETS. The pin being in is adding an obstacle - seems silly for scoring purposes. **IF** it speeds up your round and you're willing to sacrifice a stroke every 2-3 rounds (maybe?), by all means - you do you.

 

One every 2-3 rounds? Bet we've played over 50 rounds and finally saw one that might have been deflected out. If true, then a good way to help sandbag your handicap.

[Imp]

In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

 

--kC

[dpb5031]

> @Imp said:

> In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

>

> --kC

Thing is, it's simply not true. There are studies clearly demonstrating putts striking the pin slightly off center and the ball being deflected with regularity. This was tested at multiple speeds. The exact same putts (same speed/same break) absolutely did drop with significantly higher frequency when the pin was out. It's not even really questionable at this point. Only putts rolling dramatically too fast were helped.

[Imp]

> @hybrid25 said:

> I think the rule may get overturned and revert back to the old way of removing the flag from the cup while putting. First off, I don't think it really saves a whole lot of time if at all. Secondly, damage to the hole is being noticed because hands don't fit down the hole comfortably and rake the sides of the cup both down and back upward and out causing damage to the putting hole.

 

It saves time. You may not see it.... but don't let your bubble be the rule for everyone elses ocean. Our league has shaved 15 minutes+ off almost everyones rounds (16 foursomes every thursday off the 1st tee) across all four flights, for 9 hole match play rounds. Almost all of that is 1-2 minutes saved from not having almost everyone away from the hole, figuring out who will have to go tend/remove the flag (which a few would never volunteer for because they are in their own little world) and then figure out their putts later. Then, figure out where to put the flag away from the hole if it's surrounded. Then after all that, someone, usually the slower guy in the group who should be 1st off the tee, (never the guy in his own little world, if you asked him how much a flag weighs, after "I don't know" he STILL won't understand why that question is even being asked) will have to go get the flag, and put it back in and THEN walk away. You may think 20 seconds is nothing, but that's 180 seconds, or, 3 minutes totaled over 9 holes.

 

Around here there was more damage from the carelessness of lifting and reinserting the flag than anything else. Leaving it in has left edges a bit more pristine than they had been.

 

--kC

[RJ_MJ_JJ]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> One every 2-3 rounds? Bet we've played over 50 rounds and finally saw one that might have been deflected out. If true, then a good way to help sandbag your handicap.

And I've played about 20 rounds this year, and seen about 5 deflect out that I thought would have gone in otherwise. It's all a matter of experience, I guess.

 

[RJ_MJ_JJ]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @RJ_MJ_JJ said:

> > A few days ago, I had a BOMB that hit the pin and pop out while turning into the hole. Might have been 3-4 ft by, downhill. Slightly off-center (half a ball?). I'd like to think it would have gone in the pin out. Had one yesterday, same situation, really similar break and speed, but the pin WASN'T in. BUCKETS. The pin being in is adding an obstacle - seems silly for scoring purposes. **IF** it speeds up your round and you're willing to sacrifice a stroke every 2-3 rounds (maybe?), by all means - **you do you**.

>

> Of course, you can't be sure they'd have ghone in but by all means, you do you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

>

Of course not! Haha - that's why I said "I'd like to think they would have..." but yes, I'll never know. You're right.

 

[Newby]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Imp said:

> > In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

> >

> > --kC

> Thing is, it's simply not true. There are studies clearly demonstrating putts striking the pin slightly off center and the ball being deflected with regularity. This was tested at multiple speeds. The exact same putts (same speed/same break) absolutely did drop with significantly higher frequency when the pin was out. It's not even really questionable at this point. Only putts rolling dramatically too fast were helped.

Thing is, it may well be true. The six or seven studies I have seen clearly demonstrate that the tests are not exactly the same.

There is no definitive answer. There are as many on one side of the fence as the other or they are sitting on the fence.

It boils down to what you believe.

But empirical evidence seems to be showing that there is significant time saving.

 

[Imp]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Imp said:

> > In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

> >

> > --kC

> Thing is, it's simply not true. There are studies clearly demonstrating putts striking the pin slightly off center and the ball being deflected with regularity. This was tested at multiple speeds. The exact same putts (same speed/same break) absolutely did drop with significantly higher frequency when the pin was out. It's not even really questionable at this point. Only putts rolling dramatically too fast were helped.

 

And what regularity is that? (He asks knowingly.) If you're referencing the study by Cal Poly (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time) I have said before I have a problem with that study. It only confirms that off center hits with a miss that would leave the ball at a pace that would leave the ball 4.5 feet+ by the hole, it's better to take it out. I strongly feel the statement/conclusion/summary they made (that everyone is regurgitating without actually having read the data) is disingenuous at best...

So that’s the only time the flagstick will help a putt go in the hole that would not have gone in otherwise. The rest of the time—99.99 percent—the better play is to putt with the flagstick out of the hole.

It should should say at the end: '... by putts, if missed, would stop 4.5+ feet past the hole.' Because the study did conclude that if the pace was such that it was only 2.5 feet, it doesn't matter in or out. I don't know about you, most of my putts under 20 feet aren't 4+ feet by the hole (only if downhill).

 

Think about this for a second... how far does one have to be, or how strong of a putter (if closer) are you, that you're missing and leaving it 4.5+ feet away from the hole? Next round, take note of your misses and by how much distance the come-back putt was (I had more putts short this weekend than went by the hole - like, 5 birdie putts short GAH!). Also note, how many of those misses atr 4.5 feet by the hole actually **touched** the hole? And most importantly, record the time it took you (or someone else) to tend/remove/replace the flag on top of that vs the "almosts". To me, time saved vs a 1% chance at a miss vs in? I'll take the time, thanks.

 

--kC

[dpb5031]

> @Newby said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Imp said:

> > > In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

> > >

> > > --kC

> > Thing is, it's simply not true. There are studies clearly demonstrating putts striking the pin slightly off center and the ball being deflected with regularity. This was tested at multiple speeds. The exact same putts (same speed/same break) absolutely did drop with significantly higher frequency when the pin was out. It's not even really questionable at this point. Only putts rolling dramatically too fast were helped.

> Thing is, it may well be true. The six or seven studies I have seen clearly demonstrate that the tests are not exactly the same.

> There is no definitive answer. There are as many on one side of the fence as the other or they are sitting on the fence.

> It boils down to what you believe.

> But empirical evidence seems to be showing that there is significant time saving.

>

Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

 

In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

 

IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I've got about 20 rounds in. That's 80 rounds in the foursome. 80 x 18 = 1,440 holes. We've only seen one deflection that "may" have been caused by pin. 1/1,440 = 0.07%. Sure it's not truly 1,440 because sometimes the pin was out because of wind, lean, early on with adoption time etc. Anyway I'll take my chances and leave it in most of the time.

 

Also the data is simply not conclusive. It really depends and here's some real world stuff...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

[dwboston]

Played in a tournament over the weekend where we went off in twosomes. Pace of play was such that we never really waited on a shot (maybe a minute or so on the par-3's). Playing partner on Saturday wanted the pin out for every putt inside 10 feet (as well as some others), playing partner on Sunday left it in (and subsequently so did I) for every putt. Saturday partner was 10 shots better than Sunday partner, but Sunday pace was 15 minutes quicker vs. the day before (3:10 vs. 3:25) - they were each riding in a cart, I walked with a pushcart. Not suggesting it was all due to flag in vs. out, but that played a big part.

 

I've played probably 20 rounds this year and have only seen one ball potentially deflected by the pin, and that was an uphill breaking 30-footer I hit with some pace that may have missed anyway, and left me with a tap-in. Regardless of what the "data" says (and none of the these studies have been perfect and they contradict), I think it's an advantage to bang the short putts in off the stick. It's a small target to be a little aggressive with.

 

 

[Imp]

> @dwboston said:

> Played in a tournament over the weekend where we went off in twosomes. Pace of play was such that we never really waited on a shot (maybe a minute or so on the par-3's). Playing partner on Saturday wanted the pin out for every putt inside 10 feet (as well as some others), playing partner on Sunday left it in (and subsequently so did I) for every putt. Saturday partner was 10 shots better than Sunday partner, but Sunday pace was 15 minutes quicker vs. the day before (3:10 vs. 3:25) - they were each riding in a cart, I walked with a pushcart. Not suggesting it was all due to flag in vs. out, but that played a big part.

>

> I've played probably 20 rounds this year and have only seen one ball potentially deflected by the pin, and that was an uphill breaking 30-footer I hit with some pace that may have missed anyway, and left me with a tap-in. Regardless of what the "data" says (and none of the these studies have been perfect and they contradict), I think it's an advantage to bang the short putts in off the stick. It's a small target to be a little aggressive with.

>

>

Some of these people, I think, can't understand the data, or the words used in the studies, or just choose to ignore it, going on feels (which is perfectly fine, because that's how they learned the game and there's nothing wrong with taking the flag out now - it's probably the biggest adjustment to get used to, I willingly concede). I just think they see "on a 4 1/2 foot putt, it's better to take the flag out" when that's not what the study said at all. It was if the pace was such as you'd miss the flag and have a come-back putt of 4 1/2+ feet. That's some seriously poor putting if you're putting it that far by.

 

The data almost all across the board on the studies is that on a 10 foot putt, leaving the stick in is the same as taking it out, even on off center shots, using the data in the link I posted above. If it would have gone in with the flag out, it'll still go in with the flag not removed (as long as the pace wasn't such that you now have a 3-4+ foot come-back putt).

 

The study goes to show you have to be a REALLY poor putter to put the ball 4 feet by the hole on a 10 foot putt (where the miss percentage starts going up, on the 4+ foot comeback misses). You only lose time on those holes by having to take the flag out, and putting it back in.

 

--kC

[BermBuster]

I like to leave the pin in. It keeps my brother from raking his ball out with his putter.