I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[bladehunter]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

>

> I see it every week. The time savings is obvious in my group.

 

I don’t doubt that it saves some time if every body does it. What I’m saying is I’ve not seen a group where more than 1 guy wanted it in. Not once.

[dpb5031]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

> >

> > I see it every week. The time savings is obvious in my group.

>

> I don’t doubt that it saves some time if every body does it. What I’m saying is I’ve not seen a group where more than 1 guy wanted it in. Not once.

 

Exactly! I've got over 60 rounds posted now since the rule change. Most at my club, some at resort courses, some at other privates, and several tournament rounds in county/state golf association events. I've yet to play a round where the entire foursome chooses to leave the flag in, but I've played a bunch where everyone wants it out save for the longest of lag putts.

[bladehunter]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

>

> I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

 

Make the hole 6 inches and theyd be a run on spots for the tours. I’ve putted to a 6 inch cup before. It’s literally hard to miss a putt inside 12ft.

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

> I don’t doubt that it saves some time if every body does it. What I’m saying is I’ve not seen a group where more than 1 guy wanted it in. Not once.

 

After 50+ rounds of golf, our group has voluntarily established a comfortable routine. Everybody wants it in for very long putts. Then it stays in until somebody says to take it out which is usually when within 15 - 20 feet of the hole. We never have anybody ask to put it back in. No fuss. No irritation. And we didn't even have to talk about it. It just became a comfortable routine. Personally, I don't care inside 15 feet. I have never asked somebody to pull the pin and if it's still in, I putt with it in.

[Sawgrass]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > > > >

> > > > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

> > >

> > > Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

> > >

> > > So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

> >

> > http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

> >

> > It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

> >

> > To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

> >

>

> One-off was about hitting your own equipment as it's such a rare occurrence.

>

> You didnt answer, do you believe it's an advantage or not. I say no advantage

>

> I also do not think it saves time overall in most instances

>

> Edit: to add that I do like not having to worry about having it tended on long lags, but the time savings is often offset with the in, out, in stuff

 

My, "I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts" was meant to be my answer. It's sometimes an advantage, sometimes not. I do like it a bit in that for me it inspires me to hit short putts harder than I otherwise tend to, but that's not important enough for me to pick it up and put it back in.

[rogolf]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

> > > >

> > > > Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

> > > >

> > > > So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

> > >

> > > http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

> > >

> > > It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

> > >

> > > To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

> > >

> >

> > One-off was about hitting your own equipment as it's such a rare occurrence.

> >

> > You didnt answer, do you believe it's an advantage or not. I say no advantage

> >

> > I also do not think it saves time overall in most instances

> >

> > Edit: to add that I do like not having to worry about having it tended on long lags, but the time savings is often offset with the in, out, in stuff

>

> My, "I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts" was meant to be my answer. It's sometimes an advantage, sometimes not. I do like it a bit in that for me it inspires me to hit short putts harder than I otherwise tend to, but that's not important enough for me to pick it up and put it back in.

I like it out for shorter putts; I've never "slammed" shorter putts into the hole (it didn't work out). I'm quite prepared to take the flagstick out myself and hand it to someone I'm playing with, or lay it down. And we play fast enough that any time-saving/loss due to in and out is not a big deal, estimate it to be 3-4 minutes either way per round.

On the other hand, there are lots of golfers who aren't adhering to the three minute search time!

 

[Sawgrass]

> @rogolf said:

 

> On the other hand, there are lots of golfers who aren't adhering to the three minute search time!

>

 

Now, there's the place for our torches and pitchforks!

[HatsForBats]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> >

> > I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

>

> Make the hole 6 inches and theyd be a run on spots for the tours. I’ve putted to a 6 inch cup before. It’s literally hard to miss a putt inside 12ft.

 

The top pro's are already at 90'ish percent from inside 10 feet?

 

I'm sure there would be those that would think they could make a run at the tour but I would also think the tournaments would start setting up more pins in difficult locations and less in easy locations. I would also think they would experiment with something more conservatitve than a jump to 6" if they would even consider it at all.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > >

> > > I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

> >

> > Make the hole 6 inches and theyd be a run on spots for the tours. I’ve putted to a 6 inch cup before. It’s literally hard to miss a putt inside 12ft.

>

> The top pro's are already at 90'ish percent from inside 10 feet?

>

> I'm sure there would be those that would think they could make a run at the tour but I would also think the tournaments would start setting up more pins in difficult locations and less in easy locations. I would also think they would experiment with something more conservatitve than a jump to 6" if they would even consider it at all.

 

Pros are generally about 50% from 8 feet. They don't make 90% kinds of numbers until 4 feet or less.

[Argonne69]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

> > >

> > > Make the hole 6 inches and theyd be a run on spots for the tours. I’ve putted to a 6 inch cup before. It’s literally hard to miss a putt inside 12ft.

> >

> > The top pro's are already at 90'ish percent from inside 10 feet?

> >

> > I'm sure there would be those that would think they could make a run at the tour but I would also think the tournaments would start setting up more pins in difficult locations and less in easy locations. I would also think they would experiment with something more conservatitve than a jump to 6" if they would even consider it at all.

>

> Pros are generally about 50% from 8 feet. They don't make 90% kinds of numbers until 4 feet or less.

 

The key word is 'inside'. Looking at the PGA 'Putting - Inside 10 ft' stat, the top 9 are 90% or better. The top 24 are 89% or better. Of course that includes a ton of taps ins from less than a foot.

 

Looking at 10 footers only, the top 3 are 70+%.

 

[Newby]

Hardly counts as 'Pros generally'

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

> > > >

> > > > Make the hole 6 inches and theyd be a run on spots for the tours. I’ve putted to a 6 inch cup before. It’s literally hard to miss a putt inside 12ft.

> > >

> > > The top pro's are already at 90'ish percent from inside 10 feet?

> > >

> > > I'm sure there would be those that would think they could make a run at the tour but I would also think the tournaments would start setting up more pins in difficult locations and less in easy locations. I would also think they would experiment with something more conservatitve than a jump to 6" if they would even consider it at all.

> >

> > Pros are generally about 50% from 8 feet. They don't make 90% kinds of numbers until 4 feet or less.

>

> The key word is 'inside'. Looking at the PGA 'Putting - Inside 10 ft' stat, the top 9 are 90% or better. The top 24 are 89% or better. Of course that includes a ton of taps ins from less than a foot.

>

> Looking at 10 footers only, the top 3 are 70+%.

>

 

I wondered about that wording. Sort of not applicable though since everything inside 3' is 99+%. Still cumulative probability inside 10' of 90% is impressive.

[Lodestone]

Right now, all of our cups have the pins in, and are full of water.

[hybrid25]

I haven't read through all the posts in this particular thread so my comment might have already been made, but I am hearing that there is more damage happening to the holes made by golfers wedging their hands into the hole to pick up/out their golf ball. If you can't imagine big hands going into the hole and rubbing on the side of the hole, especially at the top where the insert doesn't reach up to, then you can see there's good possibility of damage happening. I personally like the option of leaving the flag in for longer putts and then removing it for most of the five foot and closer type putts.

[Newby]

PGA Tour stars posted November 27, 2016

Distance (feet)

1' 100%

3' 96%

5' 76%

7' 56%

10' 38%

12' 31%

15' 23%

20' 15%

25' 10%

30' 7%

40' 4%

50' 3%

60' 2%

 

[Lodestone]

> @hybrid25 said:

> I haven't read through all the posts in this particular thread so my comment might have already been made, but I am hearing that there is more damage happening to the holes made by golfers wedging their hands into the hole to pick up/out their golf ball. If you can't imagine big hands going into the hole and rubbing on the side of the hole, especially at the top where the insert doesn't reach up to, then you can see there's good possibility of damage happening. I personally like the option of leaving the flag in for longer putts and then removing it for most of the five foot and closer type putts.

 

Indeed, this is an issue. I have relatively small hands for a guy, and am still flexible enough that I can get down there and try to delicately remove my ball from the cup while the flag is still in, but I see a lot of guys with bigger hands mangling the sides of the cup. When I was in The Villages this winter, a lot of old guys had those grabbers on the ends of the putter grips and while there was a lot of complaining down there about those things mangling the cups, I think they did less damage than a fat hand.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > I haven't read through all the posts in this particular thread so my comment might have already been made, but I am hearing that there is more damage happening to the holes made by golfers wedging their hands into the hole to pick up/out their golf ball. If you can't imagine big hands going into the hole and rubbing on the side of the hole, especially at the top where the insert doesn't reach up to, then you can see there's good possibility of damage happening. I personally like the option of leaving the flag in for longer putts and then removing it for most of the five foot and closer type putts.

>

> Indeed, this is an issue. I have relatively small hands for a guy, and am still flexible enough that I can get down there and try to delicately remove my ball from the cup while the flag is still in, but I see a lot of guys with bigger hands mangling the sides of the cup. When I was in The Villages this winter, a lot of old guys had those grabbers on the ends of the putter grips and while there was a lot of complaining down there about those things mangling the cups, I think they did less damage than a fat hand.

 

Why not just pull the pin and remove the ball?

[Sawgrass]

Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

[Lodestone]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > I haven't read through all the posts in this particular thread so my comment might have already been made, but I am hearing that there is more damage happening to the holes made by golfers wedging their hands into the hole to pick up/out their golf ball. If you can't imagine big hands going into the hole and rubbing on the side of the hole, especially at the top where the insert doesn't reach up to, then you can see there's good possibility of damage happening. I personally like the option of leaving the flag in for longer putts and then removing it for most of the five foot and closer type putts.

> >

> > Indeed, this is an issue. I have relatively small hands for a guy, and am still flexible enough that I can get down there and try to delicately remove my ball from the cup while the flag is still in, but I see a lot of guys with bigger hands mangling the sides of the cup. When I was in The Villages this winter, a lot of old guys had those grabbers on the ends of the putter grips and while there was a lot of complaining down there about those things mangling the cups, I think they did less damage than a fat hand.

>

> Why not just pull the pin and remove the ball?

 

There is no reason not to pull the pin to get the ball out other than most golfers are lazy. It is helpful if someone hangs around to help you do it, because you only have two hands, and one is already holding a putter, and if the other is holding the pin, that leaves no hands left to reach down and grab the ball out of the hole. You can try to pop the ball out with the flagstick, but that again endangers the cup. Or you can put the stick and the putter in the same hand and then try to bend down to pick up the ball while holding a putter and a flagstick in the same hand, but now you are getting into the rarified air of athleticism that few possess, like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

There are just layers and layers of problems with this whole flagstick thing. Probably we should just do away with flagsticks altogether.

[Lodestone]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

 

 

Sounds like we need a workshop on how to remove ball with stick still in...if there's technique involved, no matter how simple, it will get botched up.

[dpb5031]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

 

Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

 

The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

>

> Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

>

> The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

 

But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

[Augster]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

>

>

> Sounds like we need a workshop on how to remove ball with stick still in...if there's technique involved, no matter how simple, it will get botched up.

 

Put hand in on the side opposite the ball. Reach fingers across the stick to the ball. Pick the ball up and out of the hole while the stick is still between your fingers. Release the stick, keep the ball in your hand.

 

Simple. No extra damage. No need to pull the flag.

 

 

 

 

[dpb5031]

> @Augster said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> >

> >

> > Sounds like we need a workshop on how to remove ball with stick still in...if there's technique involved, no matter how simple, it will get botched up.

>

> Put hand in on the side opposite the ball. Reach fingers across the stick to the ball. Pick the ball up and out of the hole while the stick is still between your fingers. Release the stick, keep the ball in your hand.

>

> Simple. No extra damage. No need to pull the flag.

>

>

>

>

If we can only get the word out to the remaining 59,000,000 players in the world...lol!

[Lodestone]

> @Augster said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> >

> >

> > Sounds like we need a workshop on how to remove ball with stick still in...if there's technique involved, no matter how simple, it will get botched up.

>

> Put hand in on the side opposite the ball. Reach fingers across the stick to the ball. Pick the ball up and out of the hole while the stick is still between your fingers. Release the stick, keep the ball in your hand.

>

> Simple. No extra damage. No need to pull the flag.

>

>

>

>

What about my spine angle?

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Lodestone said:

> > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > I haven't read through all the posts in this particular thread so my comment might have already been made, but I am hearing that there is more damage happening to the holes made by golfers wedging their hands into the hole to pick up/out their golf ball. If you can't imagine big hands going into the hole and rubbing on the side of the hole, especially at the top where the insert doesn't reach up to, then you can see there's good possibility of damage happening. I personally like the option of leaving the flag in for longer putts and then removing it for most of the five foot and closer type putts.

> >

> > Indeed, this is an issue. I have relatively small hands for a guy, and am still flexible enough that I can get down there and try to delicately remove my ball from the cup while the flag is still in, but I see a lot of guys with bigger hands mangling the sides of the cup. When I was in The Villages this winter, a lot of old guys had those grabbers on the ends of the putter grips and while there was a lot of complaining down there about those things mangling the cups, I think they did less damage than a fat hand.

>

> Why not just pull the pin and remove the ball?

 

That’s what I do. Get on the green , pull the pin. Then get the ball out of the hole.

[Roadking2003]

> @rogolf said:

> On the other hand, there are lots of golfers who aren't adhering to the three minute search time!

>

How do you know?

 

[Roadking2003]

> @dpb5031 said:> Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. **The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.**

>

> The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

 

Actually, it's not a new opportunity. Lazy golfers who use their putterhead to remove their ball from the hole have always been with us.

[rogolf]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > On the other hand, there are lots of golfers who aren't adhering to the three minute search time!

> >

> How do you know?

>

 

By timing them while I'm waiting behind them.

[hybrid25]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> >

> > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> >

> > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

>

> But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

 

I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.