I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[bigred90gt]

When it is just me and my wife playing for the day, the stick never gets touched. When I play with my regular group, we all pretty much lag it up then the stick comes out. We have 1 guy that seems to believe the notion that it provides an advantage and always wants it in, so he typically putts out first then pulls it. We have the same discussion over the course of the round every time we play, and it always results in some kind of trash talking, in good spirits of course. There’s never any real hostility and it doesn’t hurt or help anything with pace. We are usually waiting on the group ahead of us anyway, so if it speeds up play to leave it, we’ll just wait longer.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> >

> > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

>

> You guys are pretty tough.

>

> When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

 

Our group is trying to drive a behavior. > @nsxguy said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> >

> > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

>

> You guys are pretty tough.

>

> When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

 

It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love :)

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > >

> > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> >

> > You guys are pretty tough.

> >

> > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

>

> **Our group is trying to drive a behavior**. > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > >

> > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> >

> > You guys are pretty tough.

> >

> > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

>

>** It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love** :)

 

For the first bolded, my question to you is "Should you ?" I mean we're talking about a Rule that a player wants to play by. We're not talking about taking 10 minutes to find a lost ball or an issue of etiquette like "We're falling behind and have to pick up the pace".

 

Would you tell the guy whose ball off the tee is in dense woods not to look for it and move on or would you allow him his 3 minutes to search ?

 

As for the second bolded item, if you wait until everyone is close then I don't see the problem. The closest guy will take it out, stand aside, and put it back in as needed. For the guy who wants it tended from 40 feet, well, that's the old rule anyway.

 

Anywho, hope you guys work it out.

 

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > >

> > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> >

> > You guys are pretty tough.

> >

> > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

>

> Our group is trying to drive a behavior. > @nsxguy said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > >

> > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> >

> > You guys are pretty tough.

> >

> > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

>

> It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love :)

 

I hope they start asking for it to be pulled from 100 yards and in. “ hey bill. You mind walking up and pulling that for me “? Lol I’m sure you’d say no way ! But it would be fun asking every hole.

[RickK]

If I have an extremely long putt, I will leave it in. Otherwise, unless it is simply a tap in and the pin is still in...I don't bother pulling it. Personally, I tried it and got what I consider to be robbed of 3 birdies in the first 5 rounds as a result of leaving it in. Even if I am off the green but still putting from a medium distance (not long way away), I have always pulled the pin.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > >

> > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > >

> > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > >

> > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> >

> > Our group is trying to drive a behavior. > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > >

> > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > >

> > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > >

> > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> >

> > It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love :)

>

> I hope they start asking for it to be pulled from 100 yards and in. “ hey bill. You mind walking up and pulling that for me “? Lol I’m sure you’d say no way ! But it would be fun asking every hole.

 

LOL pulling it from 100 :) Blade, I played w/a different group of friends yesterday, 3 of which didn't want it pulled and we successfully converted another hold out today. He started out by "pull that please" from 30ft and after some gentle persuasion about half way through the round he's like "ah just leave it in" :)

 

Honestly none of us mind pulling it if close and convenient, but we're not doing in and out nonsense or pulling it for 1 if we're all 20 feet either.

 

Also I'm finding the hole is visually bigger. Also like the fact that everyone can be at their ball rather than having someone tend and is much more conducive to continuous putting.

 

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > > >

> > > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > > >

> > > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> > >

> > > Our group is trying to drive a behavior. > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > > >

> > > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > > >

> > > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> > >

> > > It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love :)

> >

> > I hope they start asking for it to be pulled from 100 yards and in. “ hey bill. You mind walking up and pulling that for me “? Lol I’m sure you’d say no way ! But it would be fun asking every hole.

>

> LOL pulling it from 100 :) Blade, I played w/a different group of friends yesterday, 3 of which didn't want it pulled and we successfully converted another hold out today. **He started out by "pull that please" from 30ft and after some gentle persuasion about half way through the round he's like "ah just leave it in"** :)

>

> Honestly none of us mind pulling it if close and convenient, but we're not doing in and out nonsense or pulling it for 1 if we're all 20 feet either.

>

> Also I'm finding the hole is visually bigger. Also like the fact that everyone can be at their ball rather than having someone tend and is much more conducive to continuous putting.

>

 

It's called "peer pressure". LOL

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > > > >

> > > > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > > > >

> > > > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> > > >

> > > > Our group is trying to drive a behavior. > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > > > @"Matt J" said:

> > > > > > > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

> > > > >

> > > > > You guys are pretty tough.

> > > > >

> > > > > When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

> > > >

> > > > It's not as bad as I can explain it here but most the guys I'm playing with will keep it in until we're very near the hole. However a couple odd men want it pulled even when they are 40 feet away. We're working on converting those guys with a little tough love :)

> > >

> > > I hope they start asking for it to be pulled from 100 yards and in. “ hey bill. You mind walking up and pulling that for me “? Lol I’m sure you’d say no way ! But it would be fun asking every hole.

> >

> > LOL pulling it from 100 :) Blade, I played w/a different group of friends yesterday, 3 of which didn't want it pulled and we successfully converted another hold out today. **He started out by "pull that please" from 30ft and after some gentle persuasion about half way through the round he's like "ah just leave it in"** :)

> >

> > Honestly none of us mind pulling it if close and convenient, but we're not doing in and out nonsense or pulling it for 1 if we're all 20 feet either.

> >

> > Also I'm finding the hole is visually bigger. Also like the fact that everyone can be at their ball rather than having someone tend and is much more conducive to continuous putting.

> >

>

> It's called "peer pressure". LOL

 

Lol. Yea. I generally rebel against that. It’s actually fun. Everyone should try it sometimes. The look on the pressers faces are usually a trip.

[Hawkeye77]

I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.

[nsxguy]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

 

Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

>

> Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

 

Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

 

The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

> >

> > Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

>

> Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

>

> The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

 

Don't be dramatic. If you're implying my groups are bullying you are off base. Educating and influencing is not bullying.

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

> > >

> > > Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

> >

> > Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

> >

> > The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

>

> Don't be dramatic. If you're implying my groups are bullying you are off base. Educating and influencing is not bullying.

 

Of course I’m not there. So I wouldn’t claim bullying. Bullying is too strong a term. To me that involves some sort of mental or physical violence. Which is why I’m ok with the death penalty for bullying. Lol. But I digress. Going by what you’re saying , you don’t allow a guy to have his choice in a pressure free environment. So ...... I’d call it a pack mentality or just simply being passive aggressive in a rude overall tone in hopes to achieve dominance and/or a personal preference. No offense meant. Just trying to point out how it looks from the outside. People don’t generally need to be educated when they have a choice and are attempting to exercise that choice. When you “ educate “ them you’re only passively pushing them to conform for your own personal reasons. Again. Not trying to make you an enemy. Just pointing out how I’d take it.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

> > > >

> > > > Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

> > >

> > > Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

> > >

> > > The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

> >

> > Don't be dramatic. If you're implying my groups are bullying you are off base. Educating and influencing is not bullying.

>

> Of course I’m not there. So I wouldn’t claim bullying. Bullying is too strong a term. To me that involves some sort of mental or physical violence. Which is why I’m ok with the death penalty for bullying. Lol. But I digress. Going by what you’re saying , you don’t allow a guy to have his choice in a pressure free environment. So ...... I’d call it a pack mentality or just simply being passive aggressive in a rude overall tone in hopes to achieve dominance and/or a personal preference. No offense meant. Just trying to point out how it looks from the outside. People don’t generally need to be educated when they have a choice and are attempting to exercise that choice. When you “ educate “ them you’re only passively pushing them to conform for your own personal reasons. Again. Not trying to make you an enemy. Just pointing out how I’d take it.

 

Thats the problem trying to explain it in a forum. It's not bullying but education and persuasion. Our league is lighthearted and fun enough that we always have new guys (subs) telling us how much fun they have playing with us and ask to be called again.

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

> > > > >

> > > > > Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

> > > >

> > > > Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

> > > >

> > > > The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

> > >

> > > Don't be dramatic. If you're implying my groups are bullying you are off base. Educating and influencing is not bullying.

> >

> > Of course I’m not there. So I wouldn’t claim bullying. Bullying is too strong a term. To me that involves some sort of mental or physical violence. Which is why I’m ok with the death penalty for bullying. Lol. But I digress. Going by what you’re saying , you don’t allow a guy to have his choice in a pressure free environment. So ...... I’d call it a pack mentality or just simply being passive aggressive in a rude overall tone in hopes to achieve dominance and/or a personal preference. No offense meant. Just trying to point out how it looks from the outside. People don’t generally need to be educated when they have a choice and are attempting to exercise that choice. When you “ educate “ them you’re only passively pushing them to conform for your own personal reasons. Again. Not trying to make you an enemy. Just pointing out how I’d take it.

>

> Thats the problem trying to explain it in a forum. It's not bullying but education and persuasion. Our league is lighthearted and fun enough that we always have new guys (subs) telling us how much fun they have playing with us and ask to be called again.

And I get that too and I’m sure it’s true.

 

But. There’s education to be had both ways. Plenty of studies out now showing the pin in isn’t the way to go.

 

[Lodestone]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

>

I haven't been robbed yet, but I've seen it 3 times...all were putts that would have dropped. I tend to be a "die it at the hole" putter, so generally, the stick would not help me. I am trying to learn to be a bit more aggressive, because I think I leave to many good putts just short, so I'm leaving the pin in on anything longer than 5 feet or so. Sometimes I leave it in, sometimes not on shorter putts. Sometimes it makes the hole feel only half as big...it's a mental thing.

I spent the winter in Florida playing with strangers, and the spring at a new club also playing with strangers and I haven't run into any bad feelings or bad vibes no matter who decides what to do with the pin. First guy in usually becomes the pin guy and asks and is more than happy to oblige everyone's desires.

Just not a problem unless someone wants to make it a problem.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > > > I’m happy to pull the flag if someone wants it out, whatever the distance. Slippery downhill from 20 feet, no way that thing is in for me, just as one example. **It’s an option so I figure I’ll let people exercise their options.**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Totally agree. This is such a non-issue it's hard to believe there is any resistance to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also agree. It’s the refusal to recognize the option that gets me. I’ll ask a guy who I know wants it in “ hey want it back in “ and if he says yes I’m getting it and putting it back in . Several here who are not open to the idea in reverse.

> > > > >

> > > > > The main symptom I’m reading here is the “ he said pull it please from 20 ft “. A guy shouldn’t have to ask often. Playing partners should ask the one putting “ you want it in or out “ just like we used to ask if we needed it attended or not. This rule is killing manners and allowing bullying tactics to take hold.

> > > >

> > > > Don't be dramatic. If you're implying my groups are bullying you are off base. Educating and influencing is not bullying.

> > >

> > > Of course I’m not there. So I wouldn’t claim bullying. Bullying is too strong a term. To me that involves some sort of mental or physical violence. Which is why I’m ok with the death penalty for bullying. Lol. But I digress. Going by what you’re saying , you don’t allow a guy to have his choice in a pressure free environment. So ...... I’d call it a pack mentality or just simply being passive aggressive in a rude overall tone in hopes to achieve dominance and/or a personal preference. No offense meant. Just trying to point out how it looks from the outside. People don’t generally need to be educated when they have a choice and are attempting to exercise that choice. When you “ educate “ them you’re only passively pushing them to conform for your own personal reasons. Again. Not trying to make you an enemy. Just pointing out how I’d take it.

> >

> > Thats the problem trying to explain it in a forum. It's not bullying but education and persuasion. Our league is lighthearted and fun enough that we always have new guys (subs) telling us how much fun they have playing with us and ask to be called again.

> And I get that too and I’m sure it’s true.

>

> But. There’s education to be had both ways. Plenty of studies out now showing the pin in isn’t the way to go.

>

Agreed. With Old worn cups that where the stick leans too much or gusty wind bouncing the stick around combined with a high probability putt the consensus has leaned strongly to out.

 

[I_HATE_SNOW]

Any studies done that show leaving it in to be detrimental?

[bladehunter]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> Any studies done that show leaving it in to be detrimental?

 

Yes. Several that show advantage to being out on mid range and longer putts. Short is always a wash. No clear advantage on either. Edwardo molinari did one of those. Google search will find them.

[dpb5031]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

>

 

There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

 

Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

 

Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> >

>

> There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

>

> Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

>

> Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

 

And too my point it largely doesn't matter if it's in or out, a 50/50 at best/worst. The rule was made to speed things up. The guy that's 30 ft away asking for it to be pulled when no one else is nearby is being a little inconsiderate. I guess the same could said for the guy that wants it back in as well.

 

My "keep it in" guys aren't opposed to removing it so long as it doesn't cause a delay. The problem comes when everyone is far away perhaps opposite sides of the green and one guy with a 30 footer say can you pull that? Once everyone is close then no problem.

[bladehunter]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > >

> >

> > There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

> >

> > Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

> >

> > Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

>

> And too my point it largely doesn't matter if it's in or out, a 50/50 at best/worst. The rule was made to speed things up. The guy that's 30 ft away asking for it to be pulled when no one else is nearby is being a little inconsiderate. I guess the same could said for the guy that wants it back in as well.

>

> My "keep it in" guys aren't opposed to removing it so long as it doesn't cause a delay. The problem comes when everyone is far away perhaps opposite sides of the green and one guy with a 30 footer say can you pull that? Once everyone is close then no problem.

 

I’m not truly sure that the main agenda was pace of play. Otherwise why not mandate it be left in ? I’d say it was more to simplify the game for the rec crowd who may not putt out anyway. This may indeed speed up their game.

But that’s the issue. The perception that exercising the choice afforded by the rules is a “ delay”. It’s not. No more than measuring for a proper drop , or looking for your ball the full 3 minutes. It’s called golf.

[dpb5031]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > >

> > >

> > > There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

> > >

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

> > >

> > > Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

> > >

> > > Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

> >

> > And too my point it largely doesn't matter if it's in or out, a 50/50 at best/worst. The rule was made to speed things up. The guy that's 30 ft away asking for it to be pulled when no one else is nearby is being a little inconsiderate. I guess the same could said for the guy that wants it back in as well.

> >

> > My "keep it in" guys aren't opposed to removing it so long as it doesn't cause a delay. The problem comes when everyone is far away perhaps opposite sides of the green and one guy with a 30 footer say can you pull that? Once everyone is close then no problem.

>

> I’m not truly sure that the main agenda was pace of play. Otherwise why not mandate it be left in ? I’d say it was more to simplify the game for the rec crowd who may not putt out anyway. This may indeed speed up their game.

> But that’s the issue. The perception that exercising the choice afforded by the rules is a “ delay”. It’s not. No more than measuring for a proper drop , or looking for your ball the full 3 minutes. It’s called golf.

 

I agree that it was just a matter of simplification. My guess is the USGA determined that there's no advantage to putting with the stick in, therefore decided to eliminate what was previously a silly penalty.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

My course must have soft flag sticks as I've yet to see one rejected that should have dropped.

[Roadking2003]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> My course must have soft flag sticks as I've yet to see one rejected that should have dropped.

 

Same here. I've played 52 times this year and haven't seen one putt rejected by the pin other than a few going lightning speed.

Of course, "should have dropped" is highly subjective.

 

[bladehunter]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> My course must have soft flag sticks as I've yet to see one rejected that should have dropped.

 

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> My course must have soft flag sticks as I've yet to see one rejected that should have dropped.

 

I’ve seen it 3 times ( once mine) since January. Mine 10000% would have dropped. Dead center downhill putt , very fast , that I barely touched. Gained holing speed and I early walked it in , and then it clanked and came out to the lip and rolled down hill 6 inches. Every playing partner gasped. And immediately lost their minds that it spit it out. It just wasn’t moving enough to not go in. Never again.

[bladehunter]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > My course must have soft flag sticks as I've yet to see one rejected that should have dropped.

>

> Same here. I've played 52 times this year and haven't seen one putt rejected by the pin other than a few going lightning speed.

> Of course, "should have dropped" is highly subjective.

>

 

 

Just as subjective as “ too fast to go in “. We saw that in tv with Jim Furyk. He absolutely got robbed on a long uphill putt . It isn’t moving too fast to drop and it’s dead center.

[bladehunter]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

 

 

Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

>

>

> Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

 

You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

 

**Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_