I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[cmagnusson]

The worst part of the rule change that I've seen so far is the discussion about it this week with some of the Old Boys commentating. Was watching a preview show on Wednesday and they were talking about how "Even though the rule changed, it just feels wrong to leave the pin in at AUGUSTA, with its storied history. They just shouldn't do it this week, out of respect to the course"

 

 

And I just yelled at my TV: "Pretentious windbags like you (I called them far worse words but don't want to repeat them here) are the reason golf is dying and young people in my generation think its a ridiculous sport!"

 

There was an article in Golf Digest a couple years ago about the trend of guys playing shirtless down south with club permission, much to the extreme chagrin of all the old timers and rich members there. They are among my personal heros.

[HatsForBats]

I wonder, with the flag being left in more often during PGA events, how long it will be until it becomes prime advertising space.

[rogolf]

> @HatsForBats said:

> I wonder, with the flag being left in more often during PGA events, how long it will be until it becomes prime advertising space.

Already discussed by the Ruling Bodies in 2006 or so. There are limits to the construction of the flagstick (diameter, material) which will effectively limit the "benefits" to advertisers.

 

[Newby]

There is nothing in the Equipment Requirements which prevents the 'flag' being larger. It could also be made from a light rigid plastic so that it always stands out to the side.

[bladehunter]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > @Lukshannon said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > **It is very annoying playing with people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT. **If my whole group wants it out, I’ll keep it out. If they want it in, even better. But if we are playing a tournament I will put it back in to putt.

> > > > > > Like @bladehunter says, the opposite can be true as well. If you're going to get annoyed when people make choices different from yours, you'll spend a lot of your life being annoyed. Its really just not a huge deal if everyone communicates with one another. We'll all have to adapt just a little. Even this old dog can learn that new trick.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think that is a case of being annoyed with someone making a different choice but rather being annoyed that they are completely uncompromising. We have one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. It is annoying if someone is so extreme. If it's a tournament, league or some other competition with higher stakes then it is what it is.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a player in our regular group is insisting the flag is removed when they are all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag it is going to be annoying to the rest of us. That player might just get told flat out no. I like my group. Luckily we haven't run across that behavior.... yet.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm willing to go with whatever the rest of the group wants even when they don't all agree. When it is my turn it is staying how the last player played it unless there are extenuating circumstances (fast down-hiller, flag leaning or distracting etc.).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But isn’t that the issue. 3 in the group being unwilling to comprise is worse or same as the 1 who wants it out and is unwilling to compromise. It’s literally the pot calling the kettle black. If there’s an uneven number of in and out preferences it should be taken in and out. Not one side suited one side not. The rule affords a choice. Not a majority rules situation.

> > >

> > > I don't see it as an issue or the pot calling the kettle black. Every differing group I have been in this year has been very cooperative with each others preferences. Usually by the third hole the pattern is set and it has gone smoothly even when you have players of both types (prefer it in and prefer it out) plus me (fine either way). When someone starts upsetting the flow of the round with what the very large majority would consider an unreasonable request they are likely going to hear about it. Not just from our group but from the group following and likely in the bar afterwards as well.

> >

> > I’m not certain what scenario you’d find unreasonable?

> >

> > But I suppose that stance is fine so long as you are able to take what I’d dish back ? Would be pretty easy to flip your phone out and let you read the rule that says a player can choose one way or another.

> >

> > I don’t mean that as harsh as it sounds. But it is literally that cut and dried of a topic. You can choose. The reasoning is immaterial.

>

> I outlined the scenario in my original post... recap:

> one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. non-tournament/league rounds, regular group (those that choose to play together often), player all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag.

>

> A player certainly could 'dish back' and pull out their phone or even the rule book. However, they would just be wasting more time and increasing the likelihood of getting flak about their decision. The rules certainly afford them their behavior just like they could spend a full 3 minutes looking for their 10th lost ball on the day. We probably sound a little harsh when we ask a player to curb their behavior. It's either that or eventually they don't get invited back.

>

> If it was a player that did not have other habits that tended to slow up the pace they might raise an eyebrow but probably wouldn't get much flak other than some (mostly) good natured ribbing.

 

I suppose. But doesn’t sound like A group you’d honestly want to play with again. If playing fast is the only goal of the day. It’s best achieved by staying at home to start with. Golf takes some measure of time. Time I enjoy.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > @Lukshannon said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **It is very annoying playing with people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT. **If my whole group wants it out, I’ll keep it out. If they want it in, even better. But if we are playing a tournament I will put it back in to putt.

> > > > > > > Like @bladehunter says, the opposite can be true as well. If you're going to get annoyed when people make choices different from yours, you'll spend a lot of your life being annoyed. Its really just not a huge deal if everyone communicates with one another. We'll all have to adapt just a little. Even this old dog can learn that new trick.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think that is a case of being annoyed with someone making a different choice but rather being annoyed that they are completely uncompromising. We have one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. It is annoying if someone is so extreme. If it's a tournament, league or some other competition with higher stakes then it is what it is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If a player in our regular group is insisting the flag is removed when they are all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag it is going to be annoying to the rest of us. That player might just get told flat out no. I like my group. Luckily we haven't run across that behavior.... yet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm willing to go with whatever the rest of the group wants even when they don't all agree. When it is my turn it is staying how the last player played it unless there are extenuating circumstances (fast down-hiller, flag leaning or distracting etc.).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But isn’t that the issue. 3 in the group being unwilling to comprise is worse or same as the 1 who wants it out and is unwilling to compromise. It’s literally the pot calling the kettle black. If there’s an uneven number of in and out preferences it should be taken in and out. Not one side suited one side not. The rule affords a choice. Not a majority rules situation.

> > > >

> > > > I don't see it as an issue or the pot calling the kettle black. Every differing group I have been in this year has been very cooperative with each others preferences. Usually by the third hole the pattern is set and it has gone smoothly even when you have players of both types (prefer it in and prefer it out) plus me (fine either way). When someone starts upsetting the flow of the round with what the very large majority would consider an unreasonable request they are likely going to hear about it. Not just from our group but from the group following and likely in the bar afterwards as well.

> > >

> > > I’m not certain what scenario you’d find unreasonable?

> > >

> > > But I suppose that stance is fine so long as you are able to take what I’d dish back ? Would be pretty easy to flip your phone out and let you read the rule that says a player can choose one way or another.

> > >

> > > I don’t mean that as harsh as it sounds. But it is literally that cut and dried of a topic. You can choose. The reasoning is immaterial.

> >

> > I outlined the scenario in my original post... recap:

> > one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. non-tournament/league rounds, regular group (those that choose to play together often), player all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag.

> >

> > A player certainly could 'dish back' and pull out their phone or even the rule book. However, they would just be wasting more time and increasing the likelihood of getting flak about their decision. The rules certainly afford them their behavior just like they could spend a full 3 minutes looking for their 10th lost ball on the day. We probably sound a little harsh when we ask a player to curb their behavior. It's either that or eventually they don't get invited back.

> >

> > If it was a player that did not have other habits that tended to slow up the pace they might raise an eyebrow but probably wouldn't get much flak other than some (mostly) good natured ribbing.

>

> I suppose. **But doesn’t sound like A group you’d honestly want to play with again.** If playing fast is the only goal of the day. It’s best achieved by staying at home to start with. Golf takes some measure of time. Time I enjoy.

 

Wow, looking at all that, I'm glad the new software abbreviates all the previous quotes.

That aside, I agree completely agree with @bladehunter . Today I was the one guy asking to have the flag pulled for putts, mostly the 3 to 8 footers. Of course we're all friends, but nobody said a word. We were a three-ball, so we didn't need to hurry to keep up, but we played in 4 hours, walking a hilly "residential" course, so it was a good 6 to 7 miles. Its simply not a problem for any of us to be considerate and helpful to our playing companions. I can't understand those who are annoyed when someone makes choices that differ from their own.

[MaxBuck]

Biggest advantage (timewise) I've seen so far is that no one needs to wait for someone else to tend the pin. That whole dance can get more time-consuming than one would think.

[Mcgeeno]

I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

"We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

[Sawgrass]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

 

I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

 

You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

[HatsForBats]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Lukshannon said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > **It is very annoying playing with people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT. **If my whole group wants it out, I’ll keep it out. If they want it in, even better. But if we are playing a tournament I will put it back in to putt.

> > > > > > > > Like @bladehunter says, the opposite can be true as well. If you're going to get annoyed when people make choices different from yours, you'll spend a lot of your life being annoyed. Its really just not a huge deal if everyone communicates with one another. We'll all have to adapt just a little. Even this old dog can learn that new trick.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think that is a case of being annoyed with someone making a different choice but rather being annoyed that they are completely uncompromising. We have one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. It is annoying if someone is so extreme. If it's a tournament, league or some other competition with higher stakes then it is what it is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If a player in our regular group is insisting the flag is removed when they are all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag it is going to be annoying to the rest of us. That player might just get told flat out no. I like my group. Luckily we haven't run across that behavior.... yet.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm willing to go with whatever the rest of the group wants even when they don't all agree. When it is my turn it is staying how the last player played it unless there are extenuating circumstances (fast down-hiller, flag leaning or distracting etc.).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But isn’t that the issue. 3 in the group being unwilling to comprise is worse or same as the 1 who wants it out and is unwilling to compromise. It’s literally the pot calling the kettle black. If there’s an uneven number of in and out preferences it should be taken in and out. Not one side suited one side not. The rule affords a choice. Not a majority rules situation.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't see it as an issue or the pot calling the kettle black. Every differing group I have been in this year has been very cooperative with each others preferences. Usually by the third hole the pattern is set and it has gone smoothly even when you have players of both types (prefer it in and prefer it out) plus me (fine either way). When someone starts upsetting the flow of the round with what the very large majority would consider an unreasonable request they are likely going to hear about it. Not just from our group but from the group following and likely in the bar afterwards as well.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not certain what scenario you’d find unreasonable?

> > > >

> > > > But I suppose that stance is fine so long as you are able to take what I’d dish back ? Would be pretty easy to flip your phone out and let you read the rule that says a player can choose one way or another.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t mean that as harsh as it sounds. But it is literally that cut and dried of a topic. You can choose. The reasoning is immaterial.

> > >

> > > I outlined the scenario in my original post... recap:

> > > one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. non-tournament/league rounds, regular group (those that choose to play together often), player all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag.

> > >

> > > A player certainly could 'dish back' and pull out their phone or even the rule book. However, they would just be wasting more time and increasing the likelihood of getting flak about their decision. The rules certainly afford them their behavior just like they could spend a full 3 minutes looking for their 10th lost ball on the day. We probably sound a little harsh when we ask a player to curb their behavior. It's either that or eventually they don't get invited back.

> > >

> > > If it was a player that did not have other habits that tended to slow up the pace they might raise an eyebrow but probably wouldn't get much flak other than some (mostly) good natured ribbing.

> >

> > I suppose. **But doesn’t sound like A group you’d honestly want to play with again.** If playing fast is the only goal of the day. It’s best achieved by staying at home to start with. Golf takes some measure of time. Time I enjoy.

>

> Wow, looking at all that, I'm glad the new software abbreviates all the previous quotes.

> That aside, I agree completely agree with @bladehunter . Today I was the one guy asking to have the flag pulled for putts, mostly the 3 to 8 footers. Of course we're all friends, but nobody said a word. We were a three-ball, so we didn't need to hurry to keep up, but we played in 4 hours, walking a hilly "residential" course, so it was a good 6 to 7 miles. Its simply not a problem for any of us to be considerate and helpful to our playing companions. I can't understand those who are annoyed when someone makes choices that differ from their own.

 

Again people are trying to apply my statement to all situations rather than the one very specific situation I outlined. In the original post I said 'That player **might** just get told flat out no' in that particular situation. If a player already has habits that make them slow by our standards and then they start doing things that are further going to add time to the round, when they are unnecessary, then they are going to be viewed as annoying and might get told flat out no. If it was a round at a higher level of competition it would be different.

 

Let me ask it this way. If you are playing a round with your **REGULAR** group for **low stakes** but your group is falling a bit behind pace mostly because of one player. On the next green the player that is the cause of the slow up has a 120 foot putt uphill, 2-tiered green, and they ask for the pin to be pulled when nobody is near the pin (everyone is near the front of the green and pin is located in the back). None of the players have made the top tier and there are other players in the same vicinity who are going to have a similar putt and will obviously want the pin in. The group behind you is standing in the fairway with hands on hips. The group behind them has just finished up the previous hole and are headed to the tee box. Do you let that player get away with having the pin pulled? If so I don't want your group in front of me.

 

Yesterday we had our local Golf Association team matches. 1 of the players wanted the flag out every time but did compromise on at least two occasions, without being asked to compromise, when he had very long putts. If he had asked for the flag to be pulled we would have gladly obliged. It was a much higher level of competition than I outlined in my earlier scenario. I was very pleased he was not one of the **ABSOLUTELY** HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT players even though the stakes were much higher than our regular rounds.

[bladehunter]

> @cmagnusson said:

> The worst part of the rule change that I've > @HatsForBats said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Lukshannon said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > **It is very annoying playing with people who ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT. **If my whole group wants it out, I’ll keep it out. If they want it in, even better. But if we are playing a tournament I will put it back in to putt.

> > > > > > > > > Like @bladehunter says, the opposite can be true as well. If you're going to get annoyed when people make choices different from yours, you'll spend a lot of your life being annoyed. Its really just not a huge deal if everyone communicates with one another. We'll all have to adapt just a little. Even this old dog can learn that new trick.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don't think that is a case of being annoyed with someone making a different choice but rather being annoyed that they are completely uncompromising. We have one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. It is annoying if someone is so extreme. If it's a tournament, league or some other competition with higher stakes then it is what it is.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If a player in our regular group is insisting the flag is removed when they are all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag it is going to be annoying to the rest of us. That player might just get told flat out no. I like my group. Luckily we haven't run across that behavior.... yet.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm willing to go with whatever the rest of the group wants even when they don't all agree. When it is my turn it is staying how the last player played it unless there are extenuating circumstances (fast down-hiller, flag leaning or distracting etc.).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But isn’t that the issue. 3 in the group being unwilling to comprise is worse or same as the 1 who wants it out and is unwilling to compromise. It’s literally the pot calling the kettle black. If there’s an uneven number of in and out preferences it should be taken in and out. Not one side suited one side not. The rule affords a choice. Not a majority rules situation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't see it as an issue or the pot calling the kettle black. Every differing group I have been in this year has been very cooperative with each others preferences. Usually by the third hole the pattern is set and it has gone smoothly even when you have players of both types (prefer it in and prefer it out) plus me (fine either way). When someone starts upsetting the flow of the round with what the very large majority would consider an unreasonable request they are likely going to hear about it. Not just from our group but from the group following and likely in the bar afterwards as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m not certain what scenario you’d find unreasonable?

> > > > >

> > > > > But I suppose that stance is fine so long as you are able to take what I’d dish back ? Would be pretty easy to flip your phone out and let you read the rule that says a player can choose one way or another.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t mean that as harsh as it sounds. But it is literally that cut and dried of a topic. You can choose. The reasoning is immaterial.

> > > >

> > > > I outlined the scenario in my original post... recap:

> > > > one player that likes to request some balls are marked on the green when they are nowhere near to interfering with their shot. It's annoying and he has been told flat out no, in non-tournament/league rounds, a few times. non-tournament/league rounds, regular group (those that choose to play together often), player all the way across the green, with an uphill putt, and nobody is near the flag.

> > > >

> > > > A player certainly could 'dish back' and pull out their phone or even the rule book. However, they would just be wasting more time and increasing the likelihood of getting flak about their decision. The rules certainly afford them their behavior just like they could spend a full 3 minutes looking for their 10th lost ball on the day. We probably sound a little harsh when we ask a player to curb their behavior. It's either that or eventually they don't get invited back.

> > > >

> > > > If it was a player that did not have other habits that tended to slow up the pace they might raise an eyebrow but probably wouldn't get much flak other than some (mostly) good natured ribbing.

> > >

> > > I suppose. **But doesn’t sound like A group you’d honestly want to play with again.** If playing fast is the only goal of the day. It’s best achieved by staying at home to start with. Golf takes some measure of time. Time I enjoy.

> >

> > Wow, looking at all that, I'm glad the new software abbreviates all the previous quotes.

> > That aside, I agree completely agree with @bladehunter . Today I was the one guy asking to have the flag pulled for putts, mostly the 3 to 8 footers. Of course we're all friends, but nobody said a word. We were a three-ball, so we didn't need to hurry to keep up, but we played in 4 hours, walking a hilly "residential" course, so it was a good 6 to 7 miles. Its simply not a problem for any of us to be considerate and helpful to our playing companions. I can't understand those who are annoyed when someone makes choices that differ from their own.

>

> Again people are trying to apply my statement to all situations rather than the one very specific situation I outlined. In the original post I said 'That player **might** just get told flat out no' in that particular situation. If a player already has habits that make them slow by our standards and then they start doing things that are further going to add time to the round, when they are unnecessary, then they are going to be viewed as annoying and might get told flat out no. If it was a round at a higher level of competition it would be different.

>

> Let me ask it this way. If you are playing a round with your **REGULAR** group for **low stakes** but your group is falling a bit behind pace mostly because of one player. On the next green the player that is the cause of the slow up has a 120 foot putt uphill, 2-tiered green, and they ask for the pin to be pulled when nobody is near the pin (everyone is near the front of the green and pin is located in the back). None of the players have made the top tier and there are other players in the same vicinity who are going to have a similar putt and will obviously want the pin in. The group behind you is standing in the fairway with hands on hips. The group behind them has just finished up the previous hole and are headed to the tee box. Do you let that player get away with having the pin pulled? If so I don't want your group in front of me.

>

> Yesterday we had our local Golf Association team matches. 1 of the players wanted the flag out every time but did compromise on at least two occasions, without being asked to compromise, when he had very long putts. If he had asked for the flag to be pulled we would have gladly obliged. It was a much higher level of competition than I outlined in my earlier scenario. I was very pleased he was not one of the **ABSOLUTELY** HAVE TO HAVE IT OUT players even though the stakes were much higher than our regular rounds.

 

I don’t recall the last time a group pushed any of our regular games groups (12 or more guys ). And most of us walk.

 

That maybe the disconnect here though. Our rounds are pretty serious competition. Putted out played down ( unless muddy ) etc.

 

If it’s a hit and giggle practice round. Who cares. Just give him the 40 footer

[Mcgeeno]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

>

> I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

>

> You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

 

They all said they were fine with it. Wasnt even a blip on anyones radar.

[dlygrisse]

I've played 5 rounds this year and I can honestly say not one single shot has been affected by the pin yet. I think it has sped up play a bit, especially when needing someone to tend the pin on a long one, now people just putt it. Most of the people I have played with don't care if it's in or out around the cup, as long as the wind isn't moving the stick toward you, then it makes sense to pull it. So I am sure it speeds up play, now much? My guess is 5-10 minutes a round. max. It's more of a convenience thing. Not needing to tend pins for people, wait on someone to tend it etc.

[HatsForBats]

> @bladehunter said:

> I don’t recall the last time a group pushed any of our regular games groups (12 or more guys ). And most of us walk.

>

> That maybe the disconnect here though. Our rounds are pretty serious competition. Putted out played down ( unless muddy ) etc.

>

> If it’s a hit and giggle practice round. Who cares. Just give him the 40 footer

 

To avoid the disconnect imagine your group is not your group but rather a group exactly as I have outlined it. It doesn't matter if you have never in your life even witnessed some other group holding up 2 others.

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

>

> I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

>

> You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

 

That seems odd to me. You would jump straight to 'I'm taking my ball and going home' if someone dared to simply ask the question as @Mcgeeno typed it? Seems like a pretty reasonable **question** for someone who is playing in a regular group that is already playing that way. You wouldn't perhaps first make an attempt at 'I prefer it out from X or XX feet in, do you mind?'.

 

Maybe there is some other post in the past I am missing that leads you to jump straight to that reaction?

[Sawgrass]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

> >

> > I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

> >

> > You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

>

> They all said they were fine with it. Wasnt even a blip on anyones radar.

 

Perhaps they were fine, perhaps they didn't want to quarrel on the first tee with strangers they were forced to spend four hours with.

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @Vindog said:

>

>

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @xxio said:

> > > > > > > > Found an extra advantage today. I could shoot the pin with my range finder even when the group ahead was putting. Happened on a couple of par 3s that tend to be difficult to decide club selection.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If pin is out point range finder at one of the guys standing near the hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Some gwrxers will say that isn't precise enough for them

> > > > >

> > > > > It is precise enough to pull a club. It might not be good enough to determine exactly how you are going to hit it. Still saves time regardless, but a little less than shooting the pin direct.

> > > >

> > > > I don't agree. Say you shoot a player on the green and it's 128 yards, so you pull your PW which is a maximum of 130 yards when well struck. Then you shoot it after the flag is in and it's now 132 yards. That's a different club.

> > >

> > > Wow, such precision - surprised you're not at the Valero Texas Open this week.

> >

> > So you would pull the same club at 128 yds as 132 yds even though that club can only 130 when flushed? Strange.

>

> In that situation the full club wins. But I guess it also depends on if it's better to be short than long.

 

I agree, but my point is every yard potentially influences what club you pull.

[MaineMariner]

Pace of play in my group is noticeably improved with the pin left in. It's maybe not even a time thing, but more of a flow improvement. It seems like such a minor thing, but that time spent tending the pin is now spent reading the putt.

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> Let me ask it this way. If you are playing a round with your **REGULAR** group for **low stakes** but your group is falling a bit behind pace mostly because of one player. On the next green** the player that is the cause of the slow up** has a 120 foot putt uphill, 2-tiered green, and they ask for the pin to be pulled when nobody is near the pin (everyone is near the front of the green and pin is located in the back). None of the players have made the top tier and there are other players in the same vicinity who are going to have a similar putt and will obviously want the pin in. The group behind you is standing in the fairway with hands on hips. The group behind them has just finished up the previous hole and are headed to the tee box. Do you let that player get away with having the pin pulled? If so I don't want your group in front of me.

 

The way this reads to me is that you're annoyed by a slow player. Yes, one of the factors is the flagstick, but apparently there are a number of other factors. He's going to be slow, no matter how the flagstick is handled, so the rule really doesn't have any impact. Seems to me this is a standard slow-play complaint, its just that the flagstick is functioning as the proverbial straw.

 

 

 

[Mcgeeno]

Yeah our group went around quicker leaving it in. I could envision it being slow with the pin in/out repeatedly. If there was someone who was staunchly> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > > > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > > > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

> > >

> > > I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

> > >

> > > You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

> >

> > They all said they were fine with it. Wasnt even a blip on anyones radar.

>

> Perhaps they were fine, perhaps they didn't want to quarrel on the first tee with strangers they were forced to spend four hours with.

>

>

Quarrel with a stranger over the pin?

If they didnt want the pin in we would have played without it. I think we golf with different types of people.

There is only drama here if you create it. Nobody cared.

 

[Mcgeeno]

> @MaineMariner said:

> Pace of play in my group is noticeably improved with the pin left in. It's maybe not even a time thing, but more of a flow improvement. It seems like such a minor thing, but that time spent tending the pin is now spent reading the putt.

 

Both my rounds on the weekend were noticeably quicker as well.

I could see the pin in/pin out tug of war being an issue but getting on the same page early made things easy for rounds I played.

[Sawgrass]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> Yeah our group went around quicker leaving it in. I could envision it being slow with the pin in/out repeatedly. If there was someone who was staunchly> @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > > > > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > > > > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

> > > >

> > > > I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

> > > >

> > > > You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

> > >

> > > They all said they were fine with it. Wasnt even a blip on anyones radar.

> >

> > Perhaps they were fine, perhaps they didn't want to quarrel on the first tee with strangers they were forced to spend four hours with.

> >

> >

> Quarrel with a stranger over the pin?

> If they didnt want the pin in we would have played without it. I think we golf with different types of people.

> There is only drama here if you create it. Nobody cared.

>

It is you who have created the drama by subtly imposing your preference on others. I say play as you choose, and leave your “experiments” to you and your friends.

 

And if you truly don’t think there’s a potential to quarrel, consider that we are in fact quarreling.

 

[duffer987]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> > @MaineMariner said:

> > Pace of play in my group is noticeably improved with the pin left in. It's maybe not even a time thing, but more of a flow improvement. It seems like such a minor thing, but that time spent tending the pin is now spent reading the putt.

>

> Both my rounds on the weekend were noticeably quicker as well.

> I could see the pin in/pin out tug of war being an issue but getting on the same page early made things easy for rounds I played.

 

And if you never get on the same page?

Had my first annoying pin/no pin round a few weeks ago. The threesome I joined had two ardent leave it in, 1 either way, and me (20'+ sure leave it in, inside that I want it out). Simply and inelegantly put: it sucked. These guys were of the rake it back from distance or say "it's good" after the guy missed his short - not actually short - putt. They weren't looking for some Scott/Bryson advantage, they were just out to slap it around the place. We'll see how that ratio plays out over the year.

[Mcgeeno]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > @MaineMariner said:

> > > Pace of play in my group is noticeably improved with the pin left in. It's maybe not even a time thing, but more of a flow improvement. It seems like such a minor thing, but that time spent tending the pin is now spent reading the putt.

> >

> > Both my rounds on the weekend were noticeably quicker as well.

> > I could see the pin in/pin out tug of war being an issue but getting on the same page early made things easy for rounds I played.

>

> And if you never get on the same page?

> Had my first annoying pin/no pin round a few weeks ago. The threesome I joined had two ardent leave it in, 1 either way, and me (20'+ sure leave it in, inside that I want it out). Simply and inelegantly put: it sucked. These guys were of the rake it back from distance or say "it's good" after the guy missed his short - not actually short - putt. They weren't looking for some Scott/Bryson advantage, they were just out to slap it around the place. We'll see how that ratio plays out over the year.

That sounds like a rough time.

If I had someone staunchly against leaving it in I would just do what they wanted. I'm not really one to get too worried either way.

I guess I've been lucky so far. I can envision it being a problem if you have 2-3 differing opinions on the subject.

[Mcgeeno]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > Yeah our group went around quicker leaving it in. I could envision it being slow with the pin in/out repeatedly. If there was someone who was staunchly> @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > > > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > > > > > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > > > > > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

> > > >

> > > > They all said they were fine with it. Wasnt even a blip on anyones radar.

> > >

> > > Perhaps they were fine, perhaps they didn't want to quarrel on the first tee with strangers they were forced to spend four hours with.

> > >

> > >

> > Quarrel with a stranger over the pin?

> > If they didnt want the pin in we would have played without it. I think we golf with different types of people.

> > There is only drama here if you create it. Nobody cared.

> >

> It is you who have created the drama by subtly imposing your preference on others. I say play as you choose, and leave your “experiments” to you and your friends.

>

> And if you truly don’t think there’s a potential to quarrel, consider that we are in fact quarreling.

>

A quarrel is heated argument by definition no?

Are you really that raw over this subject?

I'm definitely not heated and neither were the people I 'imposed my experiment on' (IE asked them if they minded)

 

[duffer987]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > > @MaineMariner said:

> > > > Pace of play in my group is noticeably improved with the pin left in. It's maybe not even a time thing, but more of a flow improvement. It seems like such a minor thing, but that time spent tending the pin is now spent reading the putt.

> > >

> > > Both my rounds on the weekend were noticeably quicker as well.

> > > I could see the pin in/pin out tug of war being an issue but getting on the same page early made things easy for rounds I played.

> >

> > And if you never get on the same page?

> > Had my first annoying pin/no pin round a few weeks ago. The threesome I joined had two ardent leave it in, 1 either way, and me (20'+ sure leave it in, inside that I want it out). Simply and inelegantly put: it sucked. These guys were of the rake it back from distance or say "it's good" after the guy missed his short - not actually short - putt. They weren't looking for some Scott/Bryson advantage, they were just out to slap it around the place. We'll see how that ratio plays out over the year.

> That sounds like a rough time.

> If I had someone staunchly against leaving it in I would just do what they wanted. I'm not really one to get too worried either way.

> I guess I've been lucky so far. I can envision it being a problem if you have 2-3 differing opinions on the subject.

 

Ya for the most part this year, the majority of golfers I've played with have been of the in-far-away/out-closer camp, especially when playing comps everyone has wanted it out within some distance, so it's not been a thing.

But I do think there will be more and more leavers as the year progresses though, of the variety I encountered who rarely putt out and have long gimme ranges, because they don't care to begin with. We'll see I guess.

[HitEmTrue]

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> That seems odd to me. You would jump straight to 'I'm taking my ball and going home' if someone dared to simply ask the question as @Mcgeeno typed it? Seems like a pretty reasonable **question** for someone who is playing in a regular group that is already playing that way. You wouldn't perhaps first make an attempt at 'I prefer it out from X or XX feet in, do you mind?'.

>

> Maybe there is some other post in the past I am missing that leads you to jump straight to that reaction?

He didn't say he'd leave...my take is that he would choose on his own whether he'd take the pin out, or leave it in. Not participate in the experiment.

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Mcgeeno said:

> > > I played Sat and Sun this week and my conversation went like this with the 4 new golfers I played with over the weekend who joined our regular guys:

> > > "We've been leaving the flag in to experiment with the new rules so far are you guys cool with leaving it in to try?"

> > > We had no problems. We played in 3 hours and it seemed to go very smoothly.

> >

> > I’d tell you to enjoy your “experiment” without my participation.

> >

> > You can’t find your way clear to let strangers play their own game?

>

> That seems odd to me. You would jump straight to 'I'm taking my ball and going home' if someone dared to simply ask the question as @Mcgeeno typed it? Seems like a pretty reasonable **question** for someone who is playing in a regular group that is already playing that way. You wouldn't perhaps first make an attempt at 'I prefer it out from X or XX feet in, do you mind?'.

>

> Maybe there is some other post in the past I am missing that leads you to jump straight to that reaction?

 

The “experiment” lingo was obviously bs. The legit communication was, “we’re doing it this way and we hope you will too.”

 

IMO it’s rude to push your preference on a stranger in that way. The respectful thing is to let the stranger play as he/she wants to, and further to help them do just that.

 

The freakin’ rule gives us a choice, let people choose.

 

 

 

 

[Mcgeeno]

You make a lot of implications about me personally @Sawgrass in this discussion.

 

Firstly you do not know that my lingo was BS, as I said it was my first two rounds of the year. Nobody is completely decided on this issue in my group. There was no BS or deception involved it was a simple question prior to our tee off with new golfers. I would assume sorting out this new rule early in the season on the first tee would be the best way to handle it.

 

Secondly you infer that I wouldnt help them "play their way". There was no pushing of a style or agenda. We didnt know how they play or if they even knew the new rule, thats why I attempted to clarify prior to the round. I'd tend the flag happily for 18 holes if I had to. I have no problem pulling it out and putting it back in all day. Its no skin off my nose. Its OK for someone to say no and not be offended in this situation it wouldnt have effected us in any way. Even saying "I'm not sure" or "Heck no" or "Yeah sure whatever" would at least give us some idea going into a round with strangers. Doing this on the first tee before hand seemed considerate to me and avoided any confusion with strangers on the first green.

 

 

I don't get the perceived anger or frustration you are portraying here. I'd expect more from someone with 14000 posts. I honestly thought clarifying prior to the round with new playing partners would be the way to go has this not been your experience? I can assure you nobody would have been upset in any of the groups if someone wanted the flag out for every putt. The round went a lot smoother than this simple discussion has.

[HatsForBats]

I would think you would be better off without that type of player in your group. If they are going to have that type of reaction to such a simple question you are better off leaving them behind.