What creates better, more solid contact?

[wmblake2000]

I know this is a dumb sounding question. And maybe a dumb question, period.

 

I am a decent ball striker - 5-7 index. Not a world beater, but not awful. I drive the ball consistently, make great contact, etc.

 

But irons always baffle me. I own two sets I am comparing now - p790 and some JDM blades (RomaRo, pretty small heads). Both have 105R shafts in them (TT in the P790, Modus in the RR). On the course, I hit the RR more frequently solidly. The p790 still perform well - as straight, as long or longer on what feel like less than solid strikes than the RR. (And of course spin less and have a lower, flatter trajectory, which is kind of a mixed thing) But this infrequent 'not solid' hit on the p790 is frustrating. When I do flush it, they are really long. But that's just too infrequent.

 

Any suggestions about what to look at? I think the p790's are a better fit for my game, but I need to figure out why they feel so bad. On the range, on mats, it's much better. I can't quite diagnose the miss on the course, but it's not fat so much as it is just 'not solid' - sort of like the club bounces off the turf. Is this the sole, my swing, and the turf where I play not meshing?

 

Anyway, I don't know if this is the kind of question anyone can really answer, but I thought I'd ask. Thx. Chuck

[Socrates]

I would bet you are hitting the ground with the back of the sole at or before the ball. It likely isn't noticeable with the iron with the narrower sole. A good fitter would be able to tell you and tell you what you should do to either fix it or what type of iron head suits you better. Although, you likely have your answer already with the RR irons.

[Stuart_G]

First step is to get some foot powder spray to get more accurate info about these mis-hits. How much is real and how much is feel?

 

However, since the shafts are the same I'd suggest getting 1) the lie angles checked and 2) the swing weights checked. I'm assuming the same grips and grip size is being used in both sets?

[uwhockey14]

If I had to bet i'm thinking, one look gives you more confidence to make a good swing than another.... Its why I mishit cavity back irons and player improvement clubs and I hit blades on the screws... I can't and won't ever get use to a player improvement club. I am from the school that the look of the club is every bit as important as its specs.

[Adam C]

If they are okay on the range but not on the course, two options. Either it's in your head (ie self fulfilling prophecy), or possibly turf interaction based on uneven lies on the course. Those are my guesses.

[wmblake2000]

Thx... I was going to play, had foot power and dry erase marker ready but wife’s car needed towing so there went that plan. I did get to range and lie seems good. My guess I am hitting it a little fat and that idea of the back of the sole makes some sense too.

 

Really appreciate the input.

[wmblake2000]

> @"Stuart G." said:

> First step is to get some foot powder spray to get more accurate info about these mis-hits. How much is real and how much is feel?

>

> However, since the shafts are the same I'd suggest getting 1) the lie angles checked and 2) the swing weights checked. I'm assumiwng the same grips and grip size is being used in both sets?

 

Not the same grips but very close to same size.

[chershey]

If you strike the RomaRo more solidly with more predictable distances, why don't you just stick with those? I just recently went through a club fitting and found that I hit muscleback irons more solidly and consistently then any other head. Sometimes a club head style just fits your swing better. If you are looking for more distance out of them, you could get the lofts bent a little stronger.

[Ri_Redneck]

ALL irons have some bounce and most have sole camber (rounding). Look at the sole of the iron heads and see if they are different. If so, there's your issue. FYI, increased camber/bounce helps on softer turf. It can lead to the feel you are describing on firm turf. GI & UGI irons tend to have more camber to help high-cappers on contact.

 

BT

[wmblake2000]

> @chershey said:

> If you strike the RomaRo more solidly with more predictable distances, why don't you just stick with those? I just recently went through a club fitting and found that I hit muscleback irons more solidly and consistently then any other head. Sometimes a club head style just fits your swing better. If you are looking for more distance out of them, you could get the lofts bent a little stronger.

 

That’s one debate i am having inside my head to be sure,,,

 

 

[wmblake2000]

> @Ri_Redneck said:

> ALL irons have some bounce and most have sole camber (rounding). Look at the sole of the iron heads and see if they are different. If so, there's your issue. FYI, increased camber/bounce helps on softer turf. It can lead to the feel you are describing on firm turf. GI & UGI irons tend to have more camber to help high-cappers on contact.

>

> BT

 

This makes sense. I play a course (Rustic Canyon) and it’s pretty hard even after a rainy winter. And then another course with kikuyu fairways (wiry tangle, tough - head just bounces off it rather than cutting thru). Thx

[SwooshLT]

Which set of romaRo are you playing out of curiosity?

[wmblake2000]

Pro forged blades. Very nice.

[maslie]

All come back to the setup - ball position and most importand the grip. The CG location is different so that your grip need to be adjust tiny bit accordingly. Yes...millimeter matter when you dig into that deep.

Tips: try to study how the club sit naturally on the flat table and compare those 2 clubs.

[wmblake2000]

So, while I need to really think this through and pay attention (tired of ho’ing, big time) the leader in the clubhouse is the sole. Now, I really like p790 performance (age 67, like a little more distance at each shaft length) and the blades’ misses are a reality. When I’m on, they are great. When not, ....

 

Question: does a sole like Srixon where the rear of the sole is beveled tend to solve hitting back of the sole on the ground? Or do I really need a thin/low bounce sole(IF that’s the real issue)?

[wmblake2000]

PS: this kind of input is what makes golfwrx so great.

[Howard_Jones]

> @wmblake2000 said:

> I know this is a dumb sounding question. And maybe a dumb question, period.

>

> I am a decent ball striker - 5-7 index. Not a world beater, but not awful. I drive the ball consistently, make great contact, etc.

>

> But irons always baffle me. I own two sets I am comparing now - p790 and some JDM blades (RomaRo, pretty small heads). Both have 105R shafts in them (TT in the P790, Modus in the RR). On the course, I hit the RR more frequently solidly. The p790 still perform well - as straight, as long or longer on what feel like less than solid strikes than the RR. (And of course spin less and have a lower, flatter trajectory, which is kind of a mixed thing) But this infrequent 'not solid' hit on the p790 is frustrating. When I do flush it, they are really long. But that's just too infrequent.

>

> Any suggestions about what to look at? I think the p790's are a better fit for my game, but I need to figure out why they feel so bad. On the range, on mats, it's much better. I can't quite diagnose the miss on the course, but it's not fat so much as it is just 'not solid' - sort of like the club bounces off the turf. Is this the sole, my swing, and the turf where I play not meshing?

>

> Anyway, I don't know if this is the kind of question anyone can really answer, but I thought I'd ask. Thx. Chuck

 

Play length, Total weight, Club balance or resistance

Those are the 3 most important for impact, and since you dont deliver any specs, i guess your set is a classic 4/8"SW matched....if so, tell me if any club in the problematic set works better than the other, (whats the best iron in the set for YOU), and whats the best club in the other set that works better in general?

 

If i can have specs for those 2 clubs, Total wgt and SW value...

Thats what i need to know to identify the differences for why one set works better than the

other, and then we might find a short cut to fix it.

[BB28403]

I'd argue, a persons swing being athletic and timed well creates this. Not equipment tweaks. A shallow swing travels face to target for over a foot in some swings. Solid contact is very easy in those swings with any club. Fix your swing.

[Howard_Jones]

> @BB28403 said:

> I'd argue, a persons swing being athletic and timed well creates this. Not equipment tweaks. A shallow swing travels face to target for over a foot in some swings. Solid contact is very easy in those swings with any club. Fix your swing.

 

So when one club works better then the other, its the player, not the clubs?

[BB28403]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > I'd argue, a persons swing being athletic and timed well creates this. Not equipment tweaks. A shallow swing travels face to target for over a foot in some swings. Solid contact is very easy in those swings with any club. Fix your swing.

>

> So when one club works better then the other, its the player, not the clubs?

 

I'm saying good players, athletic players, can hit Anything. With them, it's just tweaks for small changes in the club department.

Having the face square six inches before the ball and six inches after is what any player should aim for. And it is done by having a correct, tour level swing.

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @BB28403 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @BB28403 said:

> > > I'd argue, a persons swing being athletic and timed well creates this. Not equipment tweaks. A shallow swing travels face to target for over a foot in some swings. Solid contact is very easy in those swings with any club. Fix your swing.

> >

> > So when one club works better then the other, its the player, not the clubs?

>

> I'm saying good players, athletic players, can hit Anything. With them, it's just tweaks for small changes in the club department.

> Having the face square six inches before the ball and six inches after is what any player should aim for. And it is done by having a correct, tour level swing.

>

>

 

so the amateur player cant expect to improve anything by equipment, he just need to get a Tour Level Golf swing...year right

 

That understanding belongs in another part of the forum, NOT the TECH part of it, in here we actually take care of technical hinders, and this is such a case where one club works better than the other, then its NOT the players swing who is the problem, but a mis fit on the club that dont work.

 

Its also far outside the truth to think a Tour player can hit anything and make it to his best, that cant be done, and i know since ive made equipment for players at the highest level who was about to give up their professional career, all due to BAD fitted equipment who ruined their game, but it was solved....by correctly fitted equipment, so it matters A LOT, even on that level.

 

This player has a tech problem, NOT a swing problem since he has clubs that works and some who dont.

[wmblake2000]

@"Howard Jones" Thx. Cataract surgery yesterday. Will measure tomorrow. I am confident it is a mix of weight/sw and sole design - @BB28403 I also am sure my swing is still a work in progress but the fact that I hit other iron sets much more frequently solidly and hit Driver, fw and hybrids solidly says to me something about this setup an outlier.

[BB28403]

Sorry guys I was just answering this "What creates better, more solid contact?"

[wmblake2000]

> @BB28403 said:

> Sorry guys I was just answering this "What creates better, more solid contact?"

 

I agree... the swing’s the thing. But within any swing there are better and lessor clubs.

 

[Kale_m]

Sounds like a lie angle thing.

 

My wedges felt clunky and contact was off. Got them bent 2 degrees flat and wow. Dead center contact and feel soooooo smooth through the ground now. Just perfect.

[wmblake2000]

> @Kale_m said:

> Sounds like a lie angle thing.

>

> My wedges felt clunky and contact was off. Got them bent 2 degrees flat and wow. Dead center contact and feel soooooo smooth through the ground now. Just perfect.

 

On the range, with 3 clubs, I used a dry erase marker and all three swings looked to me like the line on the club was vertical. I wish it was lie angle and maybe I'll do more extensive testing.... but first feedback suggests something else.

 

 

[BrickDaFunk]

Two different shafts? True Temper 105 in the 790’s and Modus 105’s in the RR’s? Could shaft deflection be the culprit?

[wmblake2000]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > I know this is a dumb sounding question. And maybe a dumb question, period.

> >

> > I am a decent ball striker - 5-7 index. Not a world beater, but not awful. I drive the ball consistently, make great contact, etc.

> >

> > But irons always baffle me. I own two sets I am comparing now - p790 and some JDM blades (RomaRo, pretty small heads). Both have 105R shafts in them (TT in the P790, Modus in the RR). On the course, I hit the RR more frequently solidly. The p790 still perform well - as straight, as long or longer on what feel like less than solid strikes than the RR. (And of course spin less and have a lower, flatter trajectory, which is kind of a mixed thing) But this infrequent 'not solid' hit on the p790 is frustrating. When I do flush it, they are really long. But that's just too infrequent.

> >

> > Any suggestions about what to look at? I think the p790's are a better fit for my game, but I need to figure out why they feel so bad. On the range, on mats, it's much better. I can't quite diagnose the miss on the course, but it's not fat so much as it is just 'not solid' - sort of like the club bounces off the turf. Is this the sole, my swing, and the turf where I play not meshing?

> >

> > Anyway, I don't know if this is the kind of question anyone can really answer, but I thought I'd ask. Thx. Chuck

>

> Play length, Total weight, Club balance or resistance

> Those are the 3 most important for impact, and since you dont deliver any specs, i guess your set is a classic 4/8"SW matched....if so, tell me if any club in the problematic set works better than the other, (whats the best iron in the set for YOU), and whats the best club in the other set that works better in general?

>

> If i can have specs for those 2 clubs, Total wgt and SW value...

> Thats what i need to know to identify the differences for why one set works better than the

> other, and then we might find a short cut to fix it.

 

@"Howard Jones" thx...

The specs are very close... Eg, overall weight on RR 6/8 irons is 409/422 grams respectively. For the P790, for 6 and 8 irons, 413/426 grams. SW for RR 6/8 is D1 and for P790 D2. They are the same length... These seem to me to be pretty negligible differences...

 

 

[wmblake2000]

> @BrickDaFunk said:

> Two different shafts? True Temper 105 in the 790’s and Modus 105’s in the RR’s? Could shaft deflection be the culprit?

I am sure these profiles are a little different, but I think my release isn't so late that these differences are a major factor.

[wmblake2000]

I wonder... as a boy, I played Wilson K-31 irons - with a wide sole. On a course in rural Arkansas, where the fairways got pretty hard. There were no sprinklers back then, you played what nature gave you. I never liked this sole, it bounced off that turf whereas the earlier blades I had didn't. I wonder if I see the narrow sole vs wide sole and way down deep I swing a little different at them. I don't like that answer, but I can't help but wonder. I know for example I have worked hard at learning to chip/pitch with the P790 to overcome my aversion to the wider sole. I just have this instinctive feel of the head bouncing off the turf.

 

This idea annoys me, because I really want to make the P790's work. They are otherwise a very good head/design for me...