Why not just move the tee on #13 to the left?

[kizell]

I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway. I would agree with you if every player was able to make it in two with a bad tee shot or a 3-metal off the tee. #13 is no push-over. People still make big numbers there. If you move tee further left, all you are doing is handicapping right-handed players because it's impossible to accurately hook a ball that extreme with a driver. Besides, the members have always wanted the par 5's to be reachable in two.

And I most definitely think making it a par 4 is silly. ANGC already has 3 monster par 4's (1, 11, 18)

 

That being said, I think moving the tee back 10 yards would be sufficient. Both the fairway and the green are heavily sloped so the hole has other barriers to overcome.

[golfgirlrobin]

Could always just narrow the fairway and grow some rough.

[DLiver]

In person, the 13th is a wickedly challenging tee shot. It looks impossible viewing it from the landing area back to the tee. But these guys are so good they can thread the needle much of the time. I would hate to see them move the tee anywhere but straight back. Another 30 yards might put some challenge back into the hole for the big hitters.

[TexasTurf]

Par 4.5's are the best holes out there.

[Asiangolfer1995]

13 is one of the most iconic holes at ANGC, it doesn't need to be changed regardless of length. Besides, even if you do Eagle that hole, you still have 17 others that can still ruin your good round, especially since #5 just got redesigned to play dumb long as a Par 4.

[BiggErn]

They’ve ruined some holes by stretching them out too much. Sheer distance shouldn’t dictate the difficulty of a hole. I liked 7 better when it was shorter. Hole 5 is worse now than it was. I personally think 13 is fine the way it is. There’s a few more holes that have lost their luster by being stretched out too much.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

The _relative to par_ obsession does nothing the help tournament golf.

[munichop]

While many here defend the distance gains, ANGC and its regular modifications show what is wrong with the USGA and Rand A when it comes to equipment. This club has had to keep their grounds as a construction site almost every year in the off season to try to remain relevant as a test for the best players in the world. Their vast financial means has masked the issue and unless the wind blows the course appears helpless at times to challenge these guys. The hole locations used to use the 6-6-6 standard and let the nerve of the players decide things. Today's 2nd round pins look like they were set by a guy whose wife just kicked him out of the house- angry pins.

I understand the problem at 13. Years ago even the best drives left you a 2 iron or 5 wd with the ball about a foot above your feet and a 200 yd carry. Then Tiger obliterated the place in '97 and panic started to set in. In an effort to diminish his advantage the club tried in vain to have it both ways. Reward great play but "level" the playing field so he wouldn't get 6 jackets in 8 years. Meanwhile the manufacturers were creating more forgiving equipment so more guys could hit it as far as Tiger. Fast forward to now and his advantage off the tee is gone. He hasn't won a jacket in more than a decade and every April we get to watch 340 yard drives carry hazards that were supposed to challenge the players. The game has been fundamentally transformed in its balance of skills skewing it to power over everything else.

Ridley was beseeching the USGA and R and A to fix this the other day in his remarks while claiming to "wait" yet again for them to do their job. They won't. 13 will be changed again. More miniature golf hole locations will be used and no one will care come Sunday when another jacket is laid on the shoulders of the winner.

[denvergolf]

> @CobbTiger said:

> They should make the 13th a par four hole under. All of a sudden you will have a monster par four that strikes fear into the players when they come to the teebox, instead of a hole where players are looking to gain on the field. Majors mentality at work here.

 

The score is the score, regardless of par. Does anyone truly care?

[denvergolf]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> I don't understand the need to stretch every course to the breaking point. To me that shows just how unimaginative these guys are. There are so many ways to make any hole, any course, any where play more difficult. With the masters it matters even less. It is pretty much a putting contest.

 

Merion held up

[QuigleyDU]

> @denvergolf said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > I don't understand the need to stretch every course to the breaking point. To me that shows just how unimaginative these guys are. There are so many ways to make any hole, any course, any where play more difficult. With the masters it matters even less. It is pretty much a putting contest.

>

> Merion held up

 

exactly. Length is not the only defense a course has... I think you will see today with the rain and soft conditions that Augusta will play very strong.

[kizell]

> @munichop said:

> While many here defend the distance gains, ANGC and its regular modifications show what is wrong with the USGA and Rand A when it comes to equipment. This club has had to keep their grounds as a construction site almost every year in the off season to try to remain relevant as a test for the best players in the world. Their vast financial means has masked the issue and unless the wind blows the course appears helpless at times to challenge these guys. The hole locations used to use the 6-6-6 standard and let the nerve of the players decide things. Today's 2nd round pins look like they were set by a guy whose wife just kicked him out of the house- angry pins.

> I understand the problem at 13. Years ago even the best drives left you a 2 iron or 5 wd with the ball about a foot above your feet and a 200 yd carry. Then Tiger obliterated the place in '97 and panic started to set in. In an effort to diminish his advantage the club tried in vain to have it both ways. Reward great play but "level" the playing field so he wouldn't get 6 jackets in 8 years. Meanwhile the manufacturers were creating more forgiving equipment so more guys could hit it as far as Tiger. Fast forward to now and his advantage off the tee is gone. He hasn't won a jacket in more than a decade and every April we get to watch 340 yard drives carry hazards that were supposed to challenge the players. The game has been fundamentally transformed in its balance of skills skewing it to power over everything else.

> Ridley was beseeching the USGA and R and A to fix this the other day in his remarks while claiming to "wait" yet again for them to do their job. They won't. 13 will be changed again. More miniature golf hole locations will be used and no one will care come Sunday when another jacket is laid on the shoulders of the winner.

 

The amount forgiveness and distance built into mishits with today's drivers is insane. It's why players are able to swing so hard. Add that with the ball technology and you've got a course-challenge problem rendering narrow fairways and rough pretty un-important. These days the only for-sure way of making a course harder is really firm greens.

[BiggErn]

I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

[tgoodspe1991]

IMO, it's the 3rd shot that's too easy at the 13th hole, not the 2nd or 1st. Guys can hit it anywhere up there (except the creek) and have a relatively easy time getting down for Birdie. I wouldn't change much about the length of the hole, but maybe find a way to make the misses into 13th green a little more penalizing.

 

If you can't change the area around the green, then I guess you have no choice but to lengthen the hole so much that the 2nd shot is hit from like 250y away, effectively demanding it be a 3-shot-hole for all but the longest/boldest of players. But that's going to involve moving the tee back and the green further away. That seems like a really big and risky undertaking for ANGC to take on.

 

Or maybe just stick a massive tree middle-left to force players to start it out over the bulk of Rae's Creek if they want to go for it, lol.

[golfer07840]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @denvergolf said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > I don't understand the need to stretch every course to the breaking point. To me that shows just how unimaginative these guys are. There are so many ways to make any hole, any course, any where play more difficult. With the masters it matters even less. It is pretty much a putting contest.

> >

> > Merion held up

>

> exactly. Length is not the only defense a course has... I think you will see today with the rain and soft conditions that Augusta will play very strong.

 

So far you are correct.

[denvergolf]

> @tgoodspe1991 said:

> IMO, it's the 3rd shot that's too easy at the 13th hole, not the 2nd or 1st. Guys can hit it anywhere up there (except the creek) and have a relatively easy time getting down for Birdie. I wouldn't change much about the length of the hole, but maybe find a way to make the misses into 13th green a little more penalizing.

>

> If you can't change the area around the green, then I guess you have no choice but to lengthen the hole so much that the 2nd shot is hit from like 250y away, effectively demanding it be a 3-shot-hole for all but the longest/boldest of players. But that's going to involve moving the tee back and the green further away. That seems like a really big and risky undertaking for ANGC to take on.

>

> Or maybe just stick a massive tree middle-left to force players to start it out over the bulk of Rae's Creek if they want to go for it, lol.

 

But...why does it need to be "harder"? The ability to torch a few holes - good and bad - is what makes the tournament.

[QuigleyDU]

> @golfer07840 said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @denvergolf said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > I don't understand the need to stretch every course to the breaking point. To me that shows just how unimaginative these guys are. There are so many ways to make any hole, any course, any where play more difficult. With the masters it matters even less. It is pretty much a putting contest.

> > >

> > > Merion held up

> >

> > exactly. Length is not the only defense a course has... I think you will see today with the rain and soft conditions that Augusta will play very strong.

>

> So far you are correct.

 

The PGA should hire me.

[Roadking2003]

> @Whiskey_fire said:

> Why not just leave it alone. It’s perfect the way it is.

 

This is true. Par is really about 4.5 and that makes it quite exciting.

If they wanted to protect against short irons into the green, why not increase the slope toward the creek on the left side of the landing area so that balls landing within 15 yards of the creek would roll in. That would increase the risk of hitting a huge drive around the corner.

[Roadking2003]

> @kizell said:

> I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

 

 

[kizell]

> @BiggErn said:

> I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

 

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @kizell said:

> > I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

> I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

>

>

 

Firstly, the scoring stats don't lie....Bubba Watson and Mickelson torch that hole

Secondly, it's because of the way modern drivers are built....it's hard to draw the ball but easy to fade it, and that's the perfect shot shape for a lefty on that hole.

[BiggErn]

> @kizell said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

>

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @kizell said:

> > > I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

> > I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

> >

> >

>

> Firstly, the scoring stats don't lie....Bubba Watson and Mickelson torch that hole

> Secondly, it's because of the way modern drivers are built....it's hard to draw the ball but easy to fade it, and that's the perfect shot shape for a lefty on that hole.

 

I don’t see anything wrong with being rewarded for a great shot. Extend the creek out a little or add a bunker or tree. People want to see guys make great shots under pressure and not just survive brutal setups. That’s why the Master’s is much better than the US Open.

[kizell]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @kizell said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

> >

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @kizell said:

> > > > I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

> > > I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Firstly, the scoring stats don't lie....Bubba Watson and Mickelson torch that hole

> > Secondly, it's because of the way modern drivers are built....it's hard to draw the ball but easy to fade it, and that's the perfect shot shape for a lefty on that hole.

>

> I don’t see anything wrong with being rewarded for a great shot. Extend the creek out a little or add a bunker or tree. People want to see guys make great shots under pressure and not just survive brutal setups. That’s why the Master’s is much better than the US Open.

 

I agree with all that, so not sure why the response.

[3jacker]

> @kizell said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

>

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @kizell said:

> > > I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

> > I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

> >

> >

>

> Firstly, the scoring stats don't lie....Bubba Watson and Mickelson torch that hole

> Secondly, it's because of the way modern drivers are built....it's hard to draw the ball but easy to fade it, and that's the perfect shot shape for a lefty on that hole.

 

Maybe it's because they're bombers?

A lot of those guys draw the ball. Attend a tournament in person and you'd be surprised. To watch on TV you'd think it's all power fades, all the time. It's not.

[kizell]

> @3jacker said:

> > @kizell said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > I think if they let the first cut grow another inch it would affect play a lot. Guys hitting out of it now are still able to spin the ball however they like in most cases.

> >

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @kizell said:

> > > > I think #13 is just fine. It does give an advantage to lefties but they still have to find the fairway.

> > > I keep hearing that but why do you think lefties have an advantage?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Firstly, the scoring stats don't lie....Bubba Watson and Mickelson torch that hole

> > Secondly, it's because of the way modern drivers are built....it's hard to draw the ball but easy to fade it, and that's the perfect shot shape for a lefty on that hole.

>

> Maybe it's because they're bombers?

> A lot of those guys draw the ball. Attend a tournament in person and you'd be surprised. To watch on TV you'd think it's all power fades, all the time. It's not.

 

Who do you think you're talking to? Someone who's never been to a tournament?

Been to Masters 5 times, Harbour Town twice, and TPC Sawgrass three times.

And you are dead wrong. Some players do indeed draw the ball with the driver, but they are the minority. But that was not my point anyway, my point was that fading with a driver is EASIER to do.

[3jacker]

I guess I thought I was talking to a newb on an internet BB.

50%/50% on draws/fades on the FL swing this year.

Going left/right is not that big a deal for these guys.

[kizell]

> @3jacker said:

> I guess I thought I was talking to a newb on an internet BB.

> 50%/50% on draws/fades on the FL swing this year.

> Going left/right is not that big a deal for these guys.

 

You're right that it's not a big deal to a pro as they are capable of doing it, just that it's not the preferred path for most if they can avoid it. When most of the players "bomb" it, they are usually doing it with a fade because the aerodynamics of the driver (weight, inertia, etc) support it. Now this pertains to just the driver. 3 metals and utility clubs are much easier to shape a draw.

[3jacker]

OK, true enough. I'd rather fade it myself off the tee. But it really helps if you can carry it 320 to begin with!

But you said Bubba and Phil (not Mike W. and Brian H.) so it's all good.. those guys get the best of both worlds on that hole - you're right. Though with Phil it seems like every drive is a crap shoot.

[kizell]

> @3jacker said:

> OK, true enough. I'd rather fade it myself off the tee. But it really helps if you can carry it 320 to begin with!

> But you said Bubba and Phil (not Mike W. and Brian H.) so it's all good.. those guys get the best of both worlds on that hole - you're right. Though with Phil it seems like every drive is a **** shoot.

 

Actually now that I think about it you are right. What I should say is it favors long-hitting lefties. Short hitting lefties, though still with an advantage over righties as the trees to the right are less of an issue, have to take more of a direct route similar to right-handed players.

[MacAttack67]

No one but Augusta National thinks that 13 is a par 5. No matter what they do, guys will still make eagle on Sunday while others hit it in the creek

[golfortennis]

Some interesting points made on GC a few moments ago. Players walk up 12 feet from 12 green to 13 tee. Lower the tee box and all of a sudden those trees are a decision. Back it up a little bit, maybe shift the box 3 yards left, and you have a very different hole, without huge changes.

 

I agree with the "par is an arbitrary number" argument, but this is a hole where you want to make a 4. You'll obviously take a 3, but 4 is the goal. It played 4.55 yesterday. So 4 was not as tough an ask. Bobby Jones said it should be a momentous decision to go for that green. It's not a decision anymore. Basically what needs to happen is guys need to be back to the hanging lie. How you get there is a discussion, but if you have a flat lie with an 8 iron in your hand....