Who Said That Ya Can Never Go Back......

[wmblake2000]

> @farmer said:

> Strictly a golf forum meme. The tour is a marketing engine for golf companies. They will never put their sponsored players out there with one of those old steel drivers or a new/old persimmon driver, because there is no market for them. Give a tour player some acclimation time, and I doubt there would be much change.

 

TRUTH

[lowheel]

 

> Futile argument from the word go. Pure fantasy-land talk. Has anything so widely accepted in any sport been reigned in and done away with, going backwards to an obsolete piece of equipment? Maybe we should get rid of the 3-point line in the NBA, let's go back to the glory years...

 

I have never been for any roll back of ball or equipment.I think its simply 19th hole/bar talk. With the agronomy tech that exists today the people setting up the course can make the winning score whatever they want more than equipment can.

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > >

> >

> > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> >

> > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

>

> Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

 

It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

 

And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

[lowheel]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > >

> > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> >

> > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

>

> It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

>

> And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

 

Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > > >

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> > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > >

> > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > >

> > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> >

> > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> >

> > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

>

> Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

 

DJ isn’t 2000-2100. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

[tiderider]

> @lowheel said:

> Case in point

>

 

clubhead felt heavier? ... shaft was 'whippier'? ... ball was like a marshmallow? ... you expect us to believe those guys know what they're talking about? ...

 

seriousness aside, i assume those balatas are 20 years old (or 30, depending on what age i want to recognize) ... does that affect the results? ...

 

i have to say if i won an 8-figure lottery amount after taxes, i'd do my best to get 10 top pros to play a 36 hole tournament or so with yesterday's equipment, just for fun ... but the old style balls would have to be made today, so i don't know if that's possible ... and i don't have that lottery ...

[iteachgolf]

PS. Dustin Johnson averaged over 2700rpms last year and Rickie averaged over 2800rpms. The persimmon driver spun less than 50rpms different than his average for the season last year

[lowheel]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > >

> > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > >

> > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > >

> > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> >

> > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

>

>** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

 

 

 

 

 

[lowheel]

> @tiderider said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > Case in point

> >

>

> clubhead felt heavier? ... shaft was 'whippier'? ... ball was like a marshmallow? ... you expect us to believe those guys know what they're talking about? ...

>

> seriousness aside, i assume those balatas are 20 years old (or 30, depending on what age i want to recognize) ... does that affect the results? ...

>

> i have to say if i won an 8-figure lottery amount after taxes, i'd do my best to get 10 top pros to play a 36 hole tournament or so with yesterday's equipment, just for fun ... but the old style balls would have to be made today, so i don't know if that's possible ... and i don't have that lottery ...

 

Im with you man.Id pay to watch these guys play a 36 hole event with old school equipment at a legendary track.I would think it would be must see tv and a ratings hit. I play 2-3 rounds a year with my old gear and its hilarious how you have to actually think your way around the course as certain bunkers are now in play.

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

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> > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > >

> > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > >

> > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > >

> > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > >

> > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> >

> >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

 

Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

[lowheel]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > >

> > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > >

> > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > >

> > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

>

> Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

 

I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info.Ialready stated it was elevation.his #s in hawaii and california at sea level were the same. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this.Rory is at 2200-2300. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well. Read it for yourself and dig up the video

 

https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > >

> > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> >

> > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

>

> I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

>

> https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

 

Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course.

 

Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

 

Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

[Forged4ever]

Wow, I thought this would be a one page, maybe a page and a half and drop off the bottom of the board, lol?

 

Granted, Dan & LH are drivin the thread, lolol

 

I love you guys?, lmao!!!

 

Have a great weekend?

RP

[lowheel]

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

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> > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > > >

> > > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> > >

> > > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

> >

> > I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

> >

> > https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

>

> **Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course. **

>

> Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

>

> Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

 

Youre apparently searching for an argument for some reason.Im not FYI.You were provided with actual #s from fittings and driving range sessions. You just moved the goalposts to only measured drives in tourneys. I think its quite disingenuous. I appreciate and respect your opinion from your teaching POV but i provided actual data while you provided anecdotal evidence. Trackmans on measured hole arent always positioned properly so spin #s and ball speed #s are skewed. Bubba watson fitting in arizona dry heat is the same effect as altitude.it drops spin sure but hes also swinging freely. bubba on the course carving a 70 yard banana peeler fade will obviously hover around 2750-3000 but he doesnt hit those #s 70% of the time. Ping says so themselves and so does he. Koepka is 300-500 higher than DJ. This cant even be disputed.

 

Heres Justin Thomas on course...

 

 

 

Koepka

 

DJ

DJ at the kingdom literally has to hit a banana to get to 2700 but never over 2200 on stock swings

Rahm

 

 

You cant have your own facts when there is actual data right there for the taking. You want to talk on course in tournament #s? no problem but lets not pretend Brooks is suddenly dropping 600+rpms and DJ is suddenly adding 600. Like I said the #s are there but for some reason youre not accepting them. I have the same fitting charts you have but these guys dont always have optimals according to the charts because theyre elite. Lets not derail the thread anymore. Youre welcome to DM me or start another thread.

[Forged4ever]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> > > >

> > > > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

> > >

> > > I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

> > >

> > > https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

> >

> > **Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course. **

> >

> > Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

> >

> > Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

>

> Youre apparently searching for an argument for some reason.Im not FYI.You were provided with actual #s from fittings and driving range sessions. You just moved the goalposts to only measured drives in tourneys. I think its quite disingenuous. I appreciate and respect your opinion from your teaching POV but i provided actual data while you provided anecdotal evidence. Trackmans on measured hole arent always positioned properly so spin #s and ball speed #s are skewed. Bubba watson fitting in arizona dry heat is the same effect as altitude.it drops spin sure but hes also swinging freely. bubba on the course carving a 70 yard banana peeler fade will obviously hover around 2750-3000 but he doesnt hit those #s 70% of the time. Ping says so themselves and so does he. Koepka is 300-500 higher than DJ. This cant even be disputed.

>

> Heres Justin Thomas on course...

>

>

>

>

> Koepka

>

>

> DJ

>

> DJ at the kingdom literally has to hit a banana to get to 2700 but never over 2200 on stock swings

>

> Rahm

>

>

>

> You cant have your own facts when there is actual data right there for the taking. You want to talk on course in tournament #s? no problem but lets not pretend Brooks is suddenly dropping 600+rpms and DJ is suddenly adding 600. Like I said the #s are there but for some reason youre not accepting them. I have the same fitting charts you have but these guys dont always have optimals according to the charts because theyre elite. Lets not derail the thread anymore. Youre welcome to DM me or start another thread.

 

Did you forget who started this thread?????

 

I’ve made “derailment” an art form, lolol?

 

This is a great discussion and I’ve actually learned a few things from both of you that I was unaware of.

 

You guys can take my threads anywhere that you want. There is no such thing as “derailment” in one of my threads, lol

 

Stay well Brother?

RP

[Ferguson]

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > @new2g0lf said:

> > > > > The groove rule was the biggest failure since the change of the Coke formula, it did nothing to change the game for the pro's. Unless you go across the board, all pro tours including the LPGA, you're not going to see any rollback of drivers on the PGA Tour.

> > > >

> > > > Poor compare.

> > > >

> > > > New Coke was a marketing campaign directed at regaining market share lost to Pepsi (and others).

> > > >

> > > > The groove rule was enacted with the intent to make "playing from the rough" more challenging thus promoting accuracy from the tee. It had nothing to do with marketing.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > ? He only compared them as both being big failures...he never said they shared the same purpose.

> >

> >

> > He stated the groove rule was the biggest failure since New Coke.

> >

> > New Coke didn't fail because of a change in consumption methodology.

> > It failed due to taste and negative customer sentiment.

> >

> > The groove rule didn't fail at all.

> > It just didn't have the impact on the sport at the pro level as intended.

> >

> >

>

> Not having the intended impact = (some degree of) failure

>

> I think he was just being playful with the Coke comment, and you're way overanalyzing it.

>

> Like if I said "Tiger Woods is the Wayne Gretsky of golf"---and you said "No, Tiger is not from Canada and never had long flowy hair".

 

On the contrary, I believe any sort of impact could be considered a success.

 

He made no mention of being playful, and if it was "simply playfulness", why make that comparison?

Why new coke, and not something more closely tied to golf?

 

 

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> > > >

> > > > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

> > >

> > > I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

> > >

> > > https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

> >

> > **Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course. **

> >

> > Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

> >

> > Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

>

> Youre apparently searching for an argument for some reason.Im not FYI.You were provided with actual #s from fittings and driving range sessions. You just moved the goalposts to only measured drives in tourneys. I think its quite disingenuous. I appreciate and respect your opinion from your teaching POV but i provided actual data while you provided anecdotal evidence. Trackmans on measured hole arent always positioned properly so spin #s and ball speed #s are skewed. Bubba watson fitting in arizona dry heat is the same effect as altitude.it drops spin sure but hes also swinging freely. bubba on the course carving a 70 yard banana peeler fade will obviously hover around 2750-3000 but he doesnt hit those #s 70% of the time. Ping says so themselves and so does he. Koepka is 300-500 higher than DJ. This cant even be disputed.

>

> Heres Justin Thomas on course...

>

>

>

>

> Koepka

>

>

> DJ

>

> DJ at the kingdom literally has to hit a banana to get to 2700 but never over 2200 on stock swings

>

> Rahm

>

>

>

> You cant have your own facts when there is actual data right there for the taking. You want to talk on course in tournament #s? no problem but lets not pretend Brooks is suddenly dropping 600+rpms and DJ is suddenly adding 600. Like I said the #s are there but for some reason youre not accepting them. I have the same fitting charts you have but these guys dont always have optimals according to the charts because theyre elite. Lets not derail the thread anymore. Youre welcome to DM me or start another thread.

 

I’m not using my own facts. I’m using actual data of what they do on course. You know where it matters. And Brooks spins it less than Rickie and DJ on course. Justin averages mid 2200s on course. I’m not basing my response on a fitting chart. I’m basing it on being out there and knowing the numbers of what happens on course as well as training people on how to use launch monitors for fittings.

 

Spin and ballspeed isn’t skewed on holes due to Trackman position, clubhead speed can be but the other won’t be. How is my data anecdotal evidence? It’s literally data from the same machine you’re using. And I don’t move the goal post to on course swings, this has literally always been about on course performance. And you keep ignoring facts, like dropping spin from 2900-2400 only gains you 4-5 yards.

 

The fact is Rickie’s numbers with the persimmon driver were extremely close to his on course average and exactly what I said they were, 2ish mph slower clubhead speed and 4-5 mph slower ballspeed.

[lowheel]

 

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve seen this. His #s are way down. Losing 20 yards in carry.Look at that spin. Ricky swings @117 normally and gets 175+ in ball speed.This is with a pro v1.the #s with a balata would be even worse. Add cross wind and look out. I simply disagree with how much it’s downplayed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Nobody is talking about balata. And they’d never have to use persimmon. Like I said before he swings it 2mph slower with 5ish mph less ball speed. What do you want me to look at spin wise? That’s near optimal. He didn’t do a clubfitting, he just randomly hit a driver. He’d hit one fit correctly further.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > And if the rule ever changed they’d use modern materials with smaller heads, essentially a mini driver. And the impact would be minimal. Decreasing clubhead size isn’t going to change scoring significantly

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Well maybe were 2 ships in the night!!! His spin is 3000 , thats not optimal. I was positing the persimmon wood question not the smaller metal head question.I agree smaller metal heads wouldnt change things much but persimmon would dramatically.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > > > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

> > > >

> > > > I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

> > > >

> > > > https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

> > >

> > > **Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course. **

> > >

> > > Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

> > >

> > > Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

> >

> > Youre apparently searching for an argument for some reason.Im not FYI.You were provided with actual #s from fittings and driving range sessions. You just moved the goalposts to only measured drives in tourneys. I think its quite disingenuous. I appreciate and respect your opinion from your teaching POV but i provided actual data while you provided anecdotal evidence. Trackmans on measured hole arent always positioned properly so spin #s and ball speed #s are skewed. Bubba watson fitting in arizona dry heat is the same effect as altitude.it drops spin sure but hes also swinging freely. bubba on the course carving a 70 yard banana peeler fade will obviously hover around 2750-3000 but he doesnt hit those #s 70% of the time. Ping says so themselves and so does he. Koepka is 300-500 higher than DJ. This cant even be disputed.

> >

> > Heres Justin Thomas on course...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Koepka

> >

> >

> > DJ

> >

> > DJ at the kingdom literally has to hit a banana to get to 2700 but never over 2200 on stock swings

> >

> > Rahm

> >

> >

> >

> > You cant have your own facts when there is actual data right there for the taking. You want to talk on course in tournament #s? no problem but lets not pretend Brooks is suddenly dropping 600+rpms and DJ is suddenly adding 600. Like I said the #s are there but for some reason youre not accepting them. I have the same fitting charts you have but these guys dont always have optimals according to the charts because theyre elite. Lets not derail the thread anymore. Youre welcome to DM me or start another thread.

>

> I’m not using my own facts. I’m using actual data of what they do on course. You know where it matters. And Brooks spins it less than Rickie and DJ on course. Justin averages mid 2200s on course. I’m not basing my response on a fitting chart. I’m basing it on being out there and knowing the numbers of what happens on course as well as training people on how to use launch monitors for fittings.

>

> Spin and ballspeed isn’t skewed on holes due to Trackman position, clubhead speed can be but the other won’t be. How is my data anecdotal evidence? It’s literally data from the same machine you’re using. And I don’t move the goal post to on course swings, this has literally always been about on course performance. And you keep ignoring facts, like dropping spin from 2900-2400 only gains you 4-5 yards.

>

> The fact is Rickie’s numbers with the persimmon driver were extremely close to his on course average and exactly what I said they were, 2ish mph slower clubhead speed and 4-5 mph slower ballspeed.

 

At this point its run its course and its pointless to continue i invited you to create a thread or dm but you insist on repeating clealry wrong data and not backing it up with any evidence. youre ignoring what was posted and havent posted any of your public data.You're not arguing in good faith at this point and i believe you know it. I have done consults with claude harmon and DJ absolutely does not spin it more than Brooks( not that it matters in the grand scheme but its just factually wrong for you to state this repeatedly). I provided ample proof of that but you tripled down. You havent posted 1 iota of publicly available data. Rickie lost more than 2mph and the #s werent extremely close.. He gets it up there to 119-121 on par 5s and his balls speed is around 177-178-179 on those holes. Statistically thats 22+ yards of carry. a big difference but hey youre entitled to your own opinions but not facts. Of course tour players arent hitting those same #s i posted 100% of the time on course as theyll peel off a fairway finder some of the time but justin thomas is absolutely around 1900 to 2100-2200 on course depending on shot selection off the tee. I never claimed dropping spin that dramatically always equals a ton more yardage but in the right situation its more than 4-5 yards when you drop from 2900 to 2400.

 

As i said i wont continue to derail the thread so if you want to have the last word have at it.

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

>

> > @iteachgolf said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @iteachgolf said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It’s not 3,000 it’s 2,899. And ideal for playing elite golf is around 2650 IMO. Again if he went through a fitting with a persimmon head rather than just hitting a random one his numbers could be optimized.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And I said near optimal. Dropping spin rate to 2200 would only gain about 4 yards.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Lets no split hairs here.Depending on launch angle it varies but as a rule as im sure you know with your tour guys bigger hitters like Ricky is in the 2300-2400 range so big difference for him.On a slight mishit rickys #s would be in the 3100+ with that persimmon but absolutely if we could fit him properly for that it would change. 2650 is more optimal on the LPGA in my opinion from the #s i see. Tour averages are anywhere from 2500 to 2600 and the average launch angles vary but generally over 10.5*. For someone with rickys speed its optimal he be in the 2400 range.Guys like DJ are 2000-2100 with the driver because of angle of attack yet as you mentioned in your #s assessment Koepka negative attack angle puts his in the 2500-2650 area. Both get it done in different ways! Hope your guys stay healthy and have alot of success this season.Have a great weekend!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >** DJ isn’t 2000-2100**. I teach multiple guys who hit it extremely far and straight (180+ ballspeed), and I’d absolutely argue ideal to play elite golf is 2650-2800 for high speed guys. It’s not long drive, optimal IMO doesn’t mean longest. You have to keep it in play. The biggest hitters on tour average on the higher spin side. Not the lower

> > > > > > > He does though. here are his #s from WGC even at altitude you add 10% its at 2200 . Finau is in the 2200. Different strokes for different folks. As you said optimal for one is not optimal for the other.Angle of attack really changes that and as you said keeping it in play is way more important

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Angle of attack doesn’t have a huge impact. And no DJ doesn’t regularly spin it at 2000. The ball spins WAY less at elevation. Again at that elevation those spin rates are meaningless. It significantly lowers them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tony averaged over 2700rpms last year just like DJ.

> > > > >

> > > > > I dont understand why youre insisting on questioning publicly available info. Youre aware taylor made had DJs m3 fitting on video right? he says so and so do they.Hes nowhere near 2700. Koepka is at at that # not DJ and Finau himself has said hes 2200.My friend is an Accra rep and has confirmed this. i cant understand what youre disagreeing with.Oh well

> > > > >

> > > > > https://golfweek.com/2018/01/09/observe-dustin-johnson-getting-fit-for-his-taylormade-driver/

> > > >

> > > > **Because I deal in a world with facts. You do realize they measure spin rate on drives on the course on driving distance measuring holes right? And they keep track of it for the season right? What someone does on a driving range in a fitting where they are trying max things out isn’t what happens on course. **

> > > >

> > > > Bubba averages 1700-1800rpms in his fittings but averages around 3000rpms on the golf course. Their average spin rates for the season is also publicly available info.

> > > >

> > > > Btw Brooks averages LESS spin off the tee than both Rickie and DJ.

> > >

> > > Youre apparently searching for an argument for some reason.Im not FYI.You were provided with actual #s from fittings and driving range sessions. You just moved the goalposts to only measured drives in tourneys. I think its quite disingenuous. I appreciate and respect your opinion from your teaching POV but i provided actual data while you provided anecdotal evidence. Trackmans on measured hole arent always positioned properly so spin #s and ball speed #s are skewed. Bubba watson fitting in arizona dry heat is the same effect as altitude.it drops spin sure but hes also swinging freely. bubba on the course carving a 70 yard banana peeler fade will obviously hover around 2750-3000 but he doesnt hit those #s 70% of the time. Ping says so themselves and so does he. Koepka is 300-500 higher than DJ. This cant even be disputed.

> > >

> > > Heres Justin Thomas on course...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Koepka

> > >

> > >

> > > DJ

> > >

> > > DJ at the kingdom literally has to hit a banana to get to 2700 but never over 2200 on stock swings

> > >

> > > Rahm

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > You cant have your own facts when there is actual data right there for the taking. You want to talk on course in tournament #s? no problem but lets not pretend Brooks is suddenly dropping 600+rpms and DJ is suddenly adding 600. Like I said the #s are there but for some reason youre not accepting them. I have the same fitting charts you have but these guys dont always have optimals according to the charts because theyre elite. Lets not derail the thread anymore. Youre welcome to DM me or start another thread.

> >

> > I’m not using my own facts. I’m using actual data of what they do on course. You know where it matters. And Brooks spins it less than Rickie and DJ on course. Justin averages mid 2200s on course. I’m not basing my response on a fitting chart. I’m basing it on being out there and knowing the numbers of what happens on course as well as training people on how to use launch monitors for fittings.

> >

> > Spin and ballspeed isn’t skewed on holes due to Trackman position, clubhead speed can be but the other won’t be. How is my data anecdotal evidence? It’s literally data from the same machine you’re using. And I don’t move the goal post to on course swings, this has literally always been about on course performance. And you keep ignoring facts, like dropping spin from 2900-2400 only gains you 4-5 yards.

> >

> > The fact is Rickie’s numbers with the persimmon driver were extremely close to his on course average and exactly what I said they were, 2ish mph slower clubhead speed and 4-5 mph slower ballspeed.

>

> At this point its run its course and its pointless to continue i invited you to create a thread or dm but you insist on repeating clealry wrong data and not backing it up with any evidence. youre ignoring what was posted and havent posted any of your public data.You're not arguing in good faith at this point and i believe you know it. I have done consults with claude harmon and DJ absolutely does not spin it more than Brooks( not that it matters in the grand scheme but its just factually wrong for you to state this repeatedly). I provided ample proof of that but you tripled down. You havent posted 1 iota of publicly available data. Rickie lost more than 2mph and the #s werent extremely close.. He gets it up there to 119-121 on par 5s and his balls speed is around 177-178-179 on those holes. Statistically thats 22+ yards of carry. a big difference but hey youre entitled to your own opinions but not facts. Of course tour players arent hitting those same #s i posted 100% of the time on course as theyll peel off a fairway finder some of the time but justin thomas is absolutely around 1900 to 2100-2200 on course depending on shot selection off the tee. I never claimed dropping spin that dramatically always equals a ton more yardage but in the right situation its more than 4-5 yards when you drop from 2900 to 2400.

>

> As i said i wont continue to derail the thread so if you want to have the last word have at it.

 

The hell are you talking about? I posted their exact averages, which I simply copied from the PGA Tour. And it’s easily findable and 100% public data. I backed it up with their actual averages. It’s not factually wrong, it’s 100% factually accurate, on average in 2018 Brooks spun it less than DJ. In 2019 so far and in 2017 and 2016 they were almost identical

 


 

Rickie lost 2mph on his average clubhead speed, again you’re trying to cherry pick his absolute best drives vs him hitting a random persimmon wood.

[iteachgolf]

And here’s 2018


 

[lowheel]

first off calm down. these are your first posts with any images on" measured drives" from the pga tour stats... its literally 4-8 measured drives per tourney. look at the #s in bracket. based on those #s trackman does yearly tour averages.Only on measured holes. You literally accused me of cherry picking stats and immediately did it yourself.Here are the measured averages straight from trackman. this represents barely 10% of drives on tour. We know what theyre fitted for and what their range #s are.In tournaments they fluctuate obviously because most times measured holes see 1 big hitters hitting less than driver and 2 going with a fairway finder swing which generates more spin. I posted several videos of DJs fittings and range sessions at the kingdom which you didnt watch because they show just that. Claude Harmon himself has posted his #s yet you deny reality.I gotta say im shocked at your lack of objectivity when faced with cold hard#s. Dont move the goalposts anymore, its unbecoming.

 

 

[lowheel]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

> @lowheel said:

> first off calm down. these are your first posts with any images on" measured drives" from the pga tour stats... its literally 4-8 measured drives per tourney. look at the #s in bracket. based on those #s trackman does yearly tour averages.Only on measured holes. You literally accused me of cherry picking stats and immediately did it yourself.Here are the measured averages straight from trackman. this represents barely 10% of drives on tour. We know what theyre fitted for and what their range #s are.In tournaments they fluctuate obviously because most times measured holes see 1 big hitters hitting less than driver and 2 going with a fairway finder swing which generates more spin. I posted several videos of DJs fittings and range sessions at the kingdom which you didnt watch because they show just that. Claude Harmon himself has posted his #s yet you deny reality.I gotta say im shocked at your lack of objectivity when faced with cold hard#s. Dont move the goalposts anymore, its unbecoming.

>

>

>

 

Huh? How is using a season long average cherry picking? I’ve literally said it was a season long average. And I literally said it was in the distance measuring holes. The distance measuring holes are chosen to be the holes where it’s most likely that everyone in the field will hit driver, though obviously it’s not driver every time.

 

How did I not watch them? I said what a fitting swing is isn’t what happens on course and doesn’t reflect what they do when they have to hit it in play under pressure. There’s a reason I said around 2650 is ideal for elite golf. Not a fitting but actually playing golf where you have to keep it in play. Not a range swing where you’re trying to max out distance. How can you ignore the fairway finder swing, it’s literally what playing golf is about? I literally haven’t moved the goal post at all. I’ve clearly stated every single post where my numbers come from.

 

How is me using a season long average cherry picking and irrelevant but you using range swings from a fitting more relevant? You accuse me of having no data and act like I was full of it and lying and then because you disagree you say my data isn’t relevant. IMO using a larger sample size from diverse conditions and courses throughout the year in real world situations is far more relevant.

[lowheel]

 

> @iteachgolf said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > first off calm down. these are your first posts with any images on" measured drives" from the pga tour stats... its literally 4-8 measured drives per tourney. look at the #s in bracket. based on those #s trackman does yearly tour averages.Only on measured holes. You literally accused me of cherry picking stats and immediately did it yourself.Here are the measured averages straight from trackman. this represents barely 10% of drives on tour. We know what theyre fitted for and what their range #s are.In tournaments they fluctuate obviously because most times measured holes see 1 big hitters hitting less than driver and 2 going with a fairway finder swing which generates more spin. I posted several videos of DJs fittings and range sessions at the kingdom which you didnt watch because they show just that. Claude Harmon himself has posted his #s yet you deny reality.I gotta say im shocked at your lack of objectivity when faced with cold hard#s. Dont move the goalposts anymore, its unbecoming.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Huh? How is using a season long average cherry picking? I’ve literally said it was a season long average. And I literally said it was in the distance measuring holes. The distance measuring holes are chosen to be the holes where it’s most likely that everyone in the field will hit driver, though obviously it’s not driver every time.

>

> How did I not watch them? I said what a fitting swing is isn’t what happens on course and doesn’t reflect what they do when they have to hit it in play under pressure. There’s a reason I said around 2650 is ideal for elite golf. Not a fitting but actually playing golf where you have to keep it in play. Not a range swing where you’re trying to max out distance. How can you ignore the fairway finder swing, it’s literally what playing golf is about? I literally haven’t moved the goal post at all. I’ve clearly stated every single post where my numbers come from.

>

> How is me using a season long average cherry picking and irrelevant but you using range swings from a fitting more relevant? You accuse me of having no data and act like I was full of it and lying and then because you disagree you say my data isn’t relevant. IMO using a larger sample size from diverse conditions and courses throughout the year in real world situations is far more relevant.

 

its cherry picking because as i explained they include non driver swings.Look at the last 2 parts of the graph. highest spin and lowest spin. the averages are inflated because of non driver swings. I already agreed with you on stock fairway finder swings having higher spin, i even provided video evidence. Were agreeing more than disagreeing however you seem stuck on a bunk stat. Bubba Watson played 90 rounds last year and they could only use 35 drives... it tells you longer hitters skew #s more than not. Look at their lower #s versus higher #s. Averages are lower than shown. its not a debate really.

[ryanarneson]

Kind of late in the thread but I've always felt that if the governing bodies get too loud with their rollback talk (either balls or club restrictions) in order to "protect" old courses that for some reason need to be in the rotation , that the PGA TOUR will just say to hell with that and go all TPC courses. Full stop.

 

If the choice is some old "gem" or keeping their club/ball partners product lines moving forward and keeping playing the game at the highest level I think that PGA tour will drop the old courses in a heartbeat and simply play on 8000 yard TPC tracks that they own and control. With the exception of Augusta, those guys will just do whatever they want to keep their tourney.

 

Tradition is nice and all, until it cuts into the bottom line.

[Forged4ever]

This is definitely a derailment though it’s my thread so WTF, lol??

 

Friggin Serg has a 300.7 ypd average and he’s ranked FORTIETH on Tour!!!

 

Technology or not, the evolution of this game is incredible!!

 

Ok, you guys can get back at it, lol?

 

Cheers?

RP

[lowheel]

> @Forged4ever said:

> This is definitely a derailment though it’s my thread so WTF, lol??

>

> Friggin Serg has a 300.7 ypd average and he’s ranked FORTIETH on Tour!!!

>

> Technology or not, the evolution of this game is incredible!!

>

> Ok, you guys can get back at it, lol?

>

> Cheers?

> RP

 

The tech is fantastic!! like your significant other says its still golf!! fewest strokes wins! Today its done differently that it was done 30 years ago and so on but its fantastic. The fittings have really helped everyone especially low caps and pros. it would be fun to watch these guys hit smaller headed clubs for a 36 or 54 hole event for fun to see home much it changes strategies. Do they go an extra inch on the shaft and lower loft like mini drivers? If theres a bored billionaire out there, make it happen!!

[MaxBuck]

> @gvogel said:

> I have long advocated that elite golfers (same ones that have to play by the groove rule in their wedges) should be restricted to driver head sizes of less than 230 cc (maybe even smaller) and driver face COR of whatever the original Pittsburgh Persimmon was. Give the golf courses a fighting chance, particularly if they aren't going to change ball specs.

>

> Thanks for posting the link.

 

I agree. And basketball should be played with balls filled with an inflated goat's stomach.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Lowheel can’t be wrong. It’s best to accept that and move on.

[new2g0lf]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > @new2g0lf said:

> > > > > > The groove rule was the biggest failure since the change of the Coke formula, it did nothing to change the game for the pro's. Unless you go across the board, all pro tours including the LPGA, you're not going to see any rollback of drivers on the PGA Tour.

> > > > >

> > > > > Poor compare.

> > > > >

> > > > > New Coke was a marketing campaign directed at regaining market share lost to Pepsi (and others).

> > > > >

> > > > > The groove rule was enacted with the intent to make "playing from the rough" more challenging thus promoting accuracy from the tee. It had nothing to do with marketing.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ? He only compared them as both being big failures...he never said they shared the same purpose.

> > >

> > >

> > > He stated the groove rule was the biggest failure since New Coke.

> > >

> > > New Coke didn't fail because of a change in consumption methodology.

> > > It failed due to taste and negative customer sentiment.

> > >

> > > The groove rule didn't fail at all.

> > > It just didn't have the impact on the sport at the pro level as intended.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Not having the intended impact = (some degree of) failure

> >

> > I think he was just being playful with the Coke comment, and you're way overanalyzing it.

> >

> > Like if I said "Tiger Woods is the Wayne Gretsky of golf"---and you said "No, Tiger is not from Canada and never had long flowy hair".

>

> On the contrary, I believe any sort of impact could be considered a success.

>

> He made no mention of being playful, and if it was "simply playfulness", why make that comparison?

> Why new coke, and not something more closely tied to golf?

>

>

 

The only purpose of the analogy was they were both epic fails. The groove rule was implemented with the intentions of having an impact on bomb and gouge, yet here we are today.