So really...re: divots...

[rogolf]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:>

> > > > > > The divot is not the intended result of the striking of the ball.

> > > > > Neither is a pitch mark on the green.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You're such a one trick pony.

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > > > Apparently, no matter how many times one explains that there are different rules for different parts of the course, nor how many times one explains that one rolls the ball on the green and goes through the air on to and from the fairway, you will just go back and forth with this same ridiculous argument.

> > > >

> > > > So this will be my last response to you about this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and BTW, you're welcome,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No matter how many times one explains that an unrepaired divot should not be a proper or normal part of a golf course, you just don't get it.

> >

> > I get it just fine. You just don't like that others don't agree with you.

> >

> > Now back to ignoring your silliness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> Personally, I enjoy the back and forth of disagreeing, as long as it's respectful to one another. I understand both sides of the coin, but I just would prefer a free drop from a man-made Hazard on the golf course is all.

 

Nearly all "hazards" (hazards don't exist in the Rules any more) are man-made, or man-modified. I understand that you would like relief from divot holes, but that is not going to happen anytime soon, if ever. The only thing that it might ever affect is your score on a hole; just deal with it as everyone already does.

[Roadking2003]

> @rogolf said:

> Nearly all "hazards" (hazards don't exist in the Rules any more) are man-made, or man-modified.

 

Not even close. Thousands of courses have natural hazards.

[trilerian]

Ball came to rest in a divot hole yesterday. Small hole but enough to have over half the ball below the grass. I thought of this thread, Thought a free drop would be nice. Hit from the hole and put it to 3 feet.

 

Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

 

I do hope that one day free relief from divot holes will happen, but I won’t lose any sleep if it never does.

[LeoLeo99]

> @trilerian said:

> Ball came to rest in a divot hole yesterday. Small hole but enough to have over half the ball below the grass. I thought of this thread, Thought a free drop would be nice. Hit from the hole and put it to 3 feet.

>

> Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

>

> I do hope that one day free relief from divot holes will happen, but I won’t lose any sleep if it never does.

 

Did you make the putt?

[trilerian]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> > @trilerian said:

> > Ball came to rest in a divot hole yesterday. Small hole but enough to have over half the ball below the grass. I thought of this thread, Thought a free drop would be nice. Hit from the hole and put it to 3 feet.

> >

> > Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

> >

> > I do hope that one day free relief from divot holes will happen, but I won’t lose any sleep if it never does.

>

> Did you make the putt?

 

I did.

[KyGolf]

 

 

 

> @trilerian said:

 

>

> Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

>

 

Can you clarify this a little bit?

 

[trilerian]

> @KyGolf said:

>

>

>

> > @trilerian said:

>

> >

> > Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

> >

>

> Can you clarify this a little bit?

>

I practice on a grass range. I was trying to create a perfect lie with every shot. Now I just roll the ball over behind the divot made from the last shot. Grass ranges being imperfect and all, this can mean the ball ends up in a thin spot, or a clump or grass, etc. In the end though, the results of the swing are generally the same. As long as you can have ball first contact, the balls reacts predictably.

 

[Mikey5e]

> @trilerian said:

> Ball came to rest in a divot hole yesterday. Small hole but enough to have over half the ball below the grass. I thought of this thread, Thought a free drop would be nice. Hit from the hole and put it to 3 feet.

>

> Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

>

> I do hope that one day free relief from divot holes will happen, but I won’t lose any sleep if it never does.

 

Yes the time I ended up in a divot ( pictures on previous pages) I was 195 out, ball 3/4 buried, stuck it to 2 ft! B)

[KyGolf]

> @trilerian said:

> > @KyGolf said:

> >

> >

> >

> > > @trilerian said:

> >

> > >

> > > Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

> > >

> >

> > Can you clarify this a little bit?

> >

> I practice on a grass range. I was trying to create a perfect lie with every shot. Now I just roll the ball over behind the divot made from the last shot. Grass ranges being imperfect and all, this can mean the ball ends up in a thin spot, or a clump or grass, etc. In the end though, the results of the swing are generally the same. As long as you can have ball first contact, the balls reacts predictably.

> > @trilerian said:

> > @KyGolf said:

> >

> >

> >

> > > @trilerian said:

> >

> > >

> > > Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

> > >

> >

> > Can you clarify this a little bit?

> >

> I practice on a grass range. I was trying to create a perfect lie with every shot. Now I just roll the ball over behind the divot made from the last shot. Grass ranges being imperfect and all, this can mean the ball ends up in a thin spot, or a clump or grass, etc. In the end though, the results of the swing are generally the same. As long as you can have ball first contact, the balls reacts predictably.

>

 

I see. I also practice on a grass range, unlimited range balls. Gives you the freedom to practice so many more shots that you would hesitate to do if you were paying by the basket.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > Nearly all "hazards" (hazards don't exist in the Rules any more) are man-made, or man-modified.

>

> Not even close. Thousands of courses have natural hazards.

 

And tens of thousands of courses have man-made hazards. In fact, I believe that all bunkers are man-made or at least man-modified. Taking into account that there are more bunkers than water hazards the majority of hazards must be man-made or man-modified. Also tens of thousands golf courses have hundreds of thousands of water hazards that are man-made or man-modified. I would estimate that more than 98% of all those that used to be called hazards are man-made or at least man-modified, depending how one wishes to calculate. So 98/100 in my eyes qualify as 'nearly all'.

[Pepperturbo]

@Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

 

We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

 

Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

 

I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

[Mikey5e]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

>

> We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

>

> Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

>

> I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

 

 

Free lift, clean, and place.

Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

Etc.

[davep043]

P> @Mikey5e said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> >

> > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> >

> > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> >

> > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

>

>

> Free lift, clean, and place.

> Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> Etc.

 

Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

[Mikey5e]

> @davep043 said:

> P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > >

> > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > >

> > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > >

> > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> >

> >

> > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > Etc.

>

> Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

 

You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

[sui generis]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > >

> > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > >

> > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > >

> > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > >

> > >

> > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > Etc.

> >

> > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

>

> You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

 

Gong . . . most of the golf course is man made.

Stop digging, Mikey.

[Colin L]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > >

> > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > >

> > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > >

> > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > >

> > >

> > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > Etc.

> >

> > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

>

> You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

 

Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

[Mikey5e]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > >

> > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > >

> > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > >

> > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > Etc.

> > >

> > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> >

> > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

>

> Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

 

huh?

[sui generis]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > > Etc.

> > > >

> > > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> > >

> > > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

> >

> > Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

>

> huh?

 

Mikey, you seem to have some fascination with "man made."

 

If you took the time to look at the Rules, you'd find the distinctions are between "natural" and "artificial" things and conditions.

 

Nobody but you (and a couple of knuckleheads) seems to think that "man made" is relevant

[Mikey5e]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > > > Etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

> > >

> > > Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

> >

> > huh?

>

> Mikey, you seem to have some fascination with "man made."

>

> If you took the time to look at the Rules, you'd find the distinctions are between "natural" and "artificial" things and conditions.

>

> Nobody but you (and a couple of knuckleheads) seems to think that "man made" is relevant

 

Actually, I think it is. It's relevant because they we're never designed into the course, they are a result of a golfer's effort. What if some drunken golfer made a 4in deep divot? Play it as it lies?

[Deceptively Short]

Is it just my cynicism or do you ever get the feeling that people who argue so desperately for free relief from divots are just trying to justify their own current (illegal) actions?

I fail to see many other reasons for such, let’s say, obstinacy.

[Colin L]

> @Mikey5e said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > > > > Etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

> > > >

> > > > Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

> > >

> > > huh?

> >

> > Mikey, you seem to have some fascination with "man made."

> >

> > If you took the time to look at the Rules, you'd find the distinctions are between "natural" and "artificial" things and conditions.

> >

> > Nobody but you (and a couple of knuckleheads) seems to think that "man made" is relevant

>

> Actually, I think it is. It's relevant because they we're never designed into the course, they are a result of a golfer's effort. What if some drunken golfer made a 4in deep divot? Play it as it lies?

 

That, or decide it is unplayable and take penalty relief.

 

I once was following a society outing round a course. It was called the "Gravediggers Society" and I expected some fearsomely deep divots about 6' x 3' with neatly cut vertical sides. All turned out well, however, as it was a group from an Edinburgh pub called The Gravediggers.

[sui generis]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > > > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > > > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > > > > > Etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

> > > > >

> > > > > Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

> > > >

> > > > huh?

> > >

> > > Mikey, you seem to have some fascination with "man made."

> > >

> > > If you took the time to look at the Rules, you'd find the distinctions are between "natural" and "artificial" things and conditions.

> > >

> > > Nobody but you (and a couple of knuckleheads) seems to think that "man made" is relevant

> >

> > Actually, I think it is. It's relevant because they we're never designed into the course, they are a result of a golfer's effort. What if some drunken golfer made a 4in deep divot? Play it as it lies?

>

> That, or decide it is unplayable and take penalty relief.

>

> I once was following a society outing round a course. It was called the "Gravediggers Society" and I expected some fearsomely deep divots about 6' x 3' with neatly cut vertical sides. All turned out well, however, as it was a group from an Edinburgh pub called The Gravediggers.

 

Remember PG Wodehouse's Wrecking Crew?

[Mikey5e]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Is it just my cynicism or do you ever get the feeling that people who argue so desperately for free relief from divots are just trying to justify their own current (illegal) actions?

> I fail to see many other reasons for such, let’s say, obstinacy.

 

No, it's just you.

[nsxguy]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @Mikey5e said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > P> @Mikey5e said:

> > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > @Mikey5e your observation is partially correct only your "have no problem playing by all the rules" conclusion, not so much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We all know there is a large segment of golfers already not playing by all the rules and likely move the ball from the divot using the good ole foot-wedge. Yep, some people see a "better" way to play. Articulately, better only spells easier. Many of my mid-high index friends complain when their ball lands in a divot. For that matter, I have a few choice words when it happens to me. However, we don't explore rule changes to water down the game and make it easier; the common reasons are we love the game as it is, and what it does for each of us.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Accepting responsibility for our across the board shortcomings comes from character. I like the challenge of golf and if I don't pull off a shot it's my fault. If I want to make a shot that's a low percentage, I know to practice it or live with the consequences of no practice. But nothing beats the best way to play good golf, it comes off the back of "practice".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am listening.. Having said that, I have yet to hear one solid reason to justify changing another rule; just voices desiring a "better" easier way to get an undeserved hole score. Yes, some of the rules are challenging but I hope the USGA and R&A keep the integrity of the game in tack. Living and playing within the rules of golf makes man better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Free lift, clean, and place.

> > > > > > Free relief from cart paths, sprinkler heads, or roped-off areas where maintenance is doing their thing.

> > > > > > Free relief landing next to the bleachers at tournaments.

> > > > > > Etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please learn a bit about the history of golf and its rules. Divots were in existence long before the first rules were written. The first rulemakers looked at divot holes as something normal, no reason to be treated as anything other than normal. Those other things, cart paths, sprinklers, bleachers, etc, developed later, and were treated as something NEW, something that SHOULD be treated as something "different". Divot holes are still a normal part of the game.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize that's your opinion and may not be everybody else's? So now you're defending your point based on time. Just please don't tell me that divots are not man made.

> > >

> > > Good Grief, still banging on about divots being man-made? An object manufactured out of raw materials is made by man - the rules call it _artificial_ and you may take relilef from interference by one. A bit of turf carved out by a golf club is certainly made by man, i.e. created by man but is not an artificial object. It is no different from, say a tyremark, or a bit shaved off the top of a bump by a mower or a footprint in a bunker. I thought it would have been clear by now - it's been said often enough in this relentlessly drawn out thread.

> >

> > huh?

>

> Mikey, you seem to have some fascination with "man made."

>

> If you took the time to look at the Rules, you'd find the distinctions are between "natural" and "artificial" things and conditions.

>

> Nobody but you (and a couple of knuckleheads) seems to think that "man made" is relevant

 

Just to be clear, are you suggesting Mikey is NOT one of the knuckleheads ?

 

Asking for A friend.

[sui generis]

Personal attacks do little to advance the dialog. (NB, sadly, facts don't seem to advance it either.)

[Mikey5e]

> @"sui generis" said:

> Personal attacks do little to advance the dialog. (NB, sadly, facts don't seem to advance it either.)

 

I appreciate the discouraging of personal attacks. They are a sign of immaturity and the lack of useful input! As far as facts, this is the type of thread where there are not too many facts to debate, just opinions. That's okay, I appreciate everybody's opinion even though I may not agree with it.

[2bGood]

> @trilerian said:

> Ball came to rest in a divot hole yesterday. Small hole but enough to have over half the ball below the grass. I thought of this thread, Thought a free drop would be nice. Hit from the hole and put it to 3 feet.

>

> Also this thread has changed my practice a bit. I used to try for a perfect lie with every shot, now I just roll the ball over.

>

> I do hope that one day free relief from divot holes will happen, but I won’t lose any sleep if it never does.

 

I found myself in a divot today. First one one about 100 rounds. I thought of this thread.

 

Did not hit out of the divot well and missed the green. no biggie. Chipped it to 3" made my putt for par.

 

I hope they never allow a drop from divots.

[nsxguy]

> @"sui generis" said:

> Personal attacks do little to advance the dialog. (NB, **sadly, facts don't seem to advance it either.**)

 

LOL

 

Ain't THAT the truth !!!

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > Nearly all "hazards" (hazards don't exist in the Rules any more) are man-made, or man-modified.

> >

> > Not even close. Thousands of courses have natural hazards.

>

> And tens of thousands of courses have man-made hazards. In fact, I believe that all bunkers are man-made or at least man-modified. Taking into account that there are more bunkers than water hazards the majority of hazards must be man-made or man-modified. Also tens of thousands golf courses have hundreds of thousands of water hazards that are man-made or man-modified. I would estimate that more than 98% of all those that used to be called hazards are man-made or at least man-modified, depending how one wishes to calculate. So 98/100 in my eyes qualify as 'nearly all'.

Stupid post. Bunkers are not hazards.

 

[Roadking2003]

> @"sui generis" said:

> **Personal attacks do little to advance the dialog**. (NB, sadly, facts don't seem to advance it either.)

 

Hmmm...... see post #1068