The decline of the country club

[dpb5031]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @"Bob Cat" said:

> > This is a general statement, but I think it's still true: CC's are a product of the middle class squeeze.

> >

> > Large metro's have enough high 6 figure earners to support a club while smaller cities, and certainly town's, do not.

> >

> > Also, the CC was a huge social means before the 90's.

>

> The gap between cost of living and earnings has increased dramatically in the past 40-50 years.

 

Agree. The transition from single earner families to dual income gave a nice boost, but that has since normalized.

[MountainGoat]

I’m not convinced that traditional country clubs are in decline. What’s in decline are real estate clubs, i.e., clubs built to support housing developments. Those were built on a false model and have been failing right and left.

[GolfChannel]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @"Bob Cat" said:

> > This is a general statement, but I think it's still true: CC's are a product of the middle class squeeze.

> >

> > Large metro's have enough high 6 figure earners to support a club while smaller cities, and certainly town's, do not.

> >

> > Also, the CC was a huge social means before the 90's.

>

> The gap between cost of living and earnings has increased dramatically in the past 40-50 years.

 

Could you expound on what you are trying to say, there’s a lot in that one sentence that should be elaborated on.

[Big Ben]

I Love Country Clubs if I had the means I would join in a heartbeat. Just great fun for the folks that have the means, what’s not to like? I’m fortunate to have great friends who enjoy inviting me. I try not to take advantage of the opportunities but when I do I treat everyone with respect including nice tips. I would be lying if I said I didn’t love it!

[BiggErn]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @"Bob Cat" said:

> > > This is a general statement, but I think it's still true: CC's are a product of the middle class squeeze.

> > >

> > > Large metro's have enough high 6 figure earners to support a club while smaller cities, and certainly town's, do not.

> > >

> > > Also, the CC was a huge social means before the 90's.

> >

> > The gap between cost of living and earnings has increased dramatically in the past 40-50 years.

>

> Could you expound on what you are trying to say, there’s a lot in that one sentence that should be elaborated on.

 

I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Basically cost of living has increased way more than wages, even with households with 2 incomes, leaving people with less disposable income.

[GolfChannel]

> @MountainGoat said:

> I’m not convinced that traditional country clubs are in decline. What’s in decline are real estate clubs, i.e., clubs built to support housing developments. Those were built on a false model and have been failing right and left.

 

That has to be taken into account, in Florida we have a ton of those “private clubs” which turned into very bad investments and are now cow pastures with vacant homes.

[ChaosTheory]

Well, the thread was really good for the first dozen or so posts.

[buckeyefl]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > > > >

> > > > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > > > >

> > > > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> > > >

> > > > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

> > >

> > > I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

> >

> > You would really have to quantify "harder"and you experience besides academia in order to make that grand of a proclamation. Also "creative" doesn't make the world go round and is only available to people once someone does the real hard work.

>

> Almost every quantifiable piece of evidence points to this generation working harder in the classroom (students now by and large take a much larger AP/magnet/college prep rich class load versus the old read and rote memorization classroom) and the work place (American workers continue to be among the most productive in the world), the only evidence which continues to disprove this conclusion is of the colloquial nature.

 

You seem really off base on several fronts such as rote memorization. You are really going to hang your hat on that one given the influx of standardized testing across the country which promotes learning to pass a specific test over actual learning? Sorry friend but that's just one example of your disconnect and opinion based on opinion. You are doing the equivalent of thinking all golfers are scratch because everyone you play with happens to be at the level and that motivated. It simply doesn't hold water in the real world and you've talked out of both sides of your mouth several times in this thread. Drive on though as there are plenty of windmills out there to be taken out.

[buckeyefl]

> @MountainGoat said:

> I’m not convinced that traditional country clubs are in decline. What’s in decline are real estate clubs, i.e., clubs built to support housing developments. Those were built on a false model and have been failing right and left.

 

That's a massive issue coupled with kids having to be in every activity under the sun as many parents live vicariously through their kids and have no free time.

[GolfChannel]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @"Bob Cat" said:

> > > > This is a general statement, but I think it's still true: CC's are a product of the middle class squeeze.

> > > >

> > > > Large metro's have enough high 6 figure earners to support a club while smaller cities, and certainly town's, do not.

> > > >

> > > > Also, the CC was a huge social means before the 90's.

> > >

> > > The gap between cost of living and earnings has increased dramatically in the past 40-50 years.

> >

> > Could you expound on what you are trying to say, there’s a lot in that one sentence that should be elaborated on.

>

> I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Basically cost of living has increased way more than wages, even with households with 2 incomes, leaving people with less disposable income.

 

That’s what I was hoping you meant, but it was worded as if you possibly meant the opposite.

[GolfChannel]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

> > > >

> > > > I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

> > >

> > > You would really have to quantify "harder"and you experience besides academia in order to make that grand of a proclamation. Also "creative" doesn't make the world go round and is only available to people once someone does the real hard work.

> >

> > Almost every quantifiable piece of evidence points to this generation working harder in the classroom (students now by and large take a much larger AP/magnet/college prep rich class load versus the old read and rote memorization classroom) and the work place (American workers continue to be among the most productive in the world), the only evidence which continues to disprove this conclusion is of the colloquial nature.

>

> You seem really off base on several fronts such as rote memorization. You are really going to hang your hat on that one given the influx of standardized testing across the country which promotes learning to pass a specific test over actual learning? Sorry friend but that's just one example of your disconnect and opinion based on opinion. You are doing the equivalent of thinking all golfers are scratch because everyone you play with happens to be at the level and that motivated. It simply doesn't hold water in the real world and you've talked out of both sides of your mouth several times in this thread. Drive on though as there are plenty of windmills out there to be taken out.

 

So, now you’re an expert in my field. Good times.

[BNGL]

Granted I’ve been privileged enough to work and be a member on the extreme end of things but I don’t necessarily see what all are worried about golf goes through ups and downs like everything else and we experienced a boon post Tiger and then Asia exploded as a viable market. Now things are slowing and contracting to the mean I think. Personally I think there’s too many golf courses as it is that’s another thread entirely though.

 

During the last recession clubs felt it, as did others. We couldn’t hire new employees for example so if we lost one we couldn’t replace him, that’s just one example. But members still want a place to go to get away be amongst like minded individuals that can relate to life and problems etc.

[buckeyefl]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

> > > >

> > > > You would really have to quantify "harder"and you experience besides academia in order to make that grand of a proclamation. Also "creative" doesn't make the world go round and is only available to people once someone does the real hard work.

> > >

> > > Almost every quantifiable piece of evidence points to this generation working harder in the classroom (students now by and large take a much larger AP/magnet/college prep rich class load versus the old read and rote memorization classroom) and the work place (American workers continue to be among the most productive in the world), the only evidence which continues to disprove this conclusion is of the colloquial nature.

> >

> > You seem really off base on several fronts such as rote memorization. You are really going to hang your hat on that one given the influx of standardized testing across the country which promotes learning to pass a specific test over actual learning? Sorry friend but that's just one example of your disconnect and opinion based on opinion. You are doing the equivalent of thinking all golfers are scratch because everyone you play with happens to be at the level and that motivated. It simply doesn't hold water in the real world and you've talked out of both sides of your mouth several times in this thread. Drive on though as there are plenty of windmills out there to be taken out.

>

> So, now you’re an expert in my field. Good times.

Well when someone makes a ridiculous statement isn't it dishonest not to correct them so their misinformation doesn't spread like a disease? It's pretty well documented that rote memorization is the requirement of the day in order to get out of most high schools and most teachers I know hate it. One would think someone in the field would be more aware of what happens at the foundation of our education system.

 

Well as in most things you have said and I pointed out, you live in a small bubble with obvious limited exposure to the world around you. "Generation" doesn't just mean the people you are around daily. Academia has a bad habit of doing that to good people.

 

Your points / opinions have holes the size of the private courses you get play on someone else's dime while talking bad about them and ignoring the hard work put into the club. That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

 

You mentioned a "real world" that doesn't exist anymore and yet you don't seem to know what makes the world go around and how everything we have today comes from the hard work of past generations from the "real world" and not the "creative" powers of your star students.

 

This comment in particular speaks volumes.

 

"If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

 

". I also have a close relationship with two local private clubs (Bay Hill and Orange Tree) that help and provide privileges to our high school golf program free of cost."

 

So help me out, should the two clubs mentioned be dismantled because they are kind enough to help you out? Do you tell ownership and the members how close minded and exclusionary they are for being a private club? Isn't opening the course to everyone but charging "whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard" exclusionary? It would seem to be since you mentioned exclusion through finance.

[GoTime]

i bet you guys are real fun to hang out with

[GolfChannel]

Spend a day in a modern class, rote memorization is the quickest way to get fired as a teacher, but please continue to lecture me with your gospel via colloquialism.

 

I don’t understand why some are so proud of their ignorance. You quite literally have an entire civilizations knowledge at your fingertips if you only clicked the search button.

 

I would start with “inferences” since you enjoy making them about my sentiments. I would then work my way into “contradictions” and then edit your posts accordingly.

[dpb5031]

@GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

 

Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

 

[GolfChannel]

> @dpb5031 said:

> @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

>

> Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

>

 

In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

 

The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

 

No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

 

I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

[GolfChannel]

> @Go_Time said:

> i bet you guys are real fun to hang out with

 

Ever down in Orlando (Sanford) we’ll go out for a boot of your favorite German beer.

 

[BNGL]

> @GolfChannel said:

>

> If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard.

 

I understand where it can be construed as closed mindedness and old world because it is. The club I worked at was a conservative bastion of old whiteness lol, it’s private and open to anyone that could afford it but it wasn’t guaranteed that you’d be admitted. One joins a club to be a part of likeminded individuals, what was great and worked at our club would be succinctly laughed at in a club in Palm Beach County where it was largely democratic. Now political affiliation aside there’s clubs for players, clubs for executives etc.

 

Clubs do open the course and charge whatever they like. It’s called initiation and dues. I might be old fashioned and others call me elitist (amongst many other things) but not everything is meant to be available to everyone.

[dpb5031]

I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

 

As for access, golf is never going to be cheap. I dont really understand the entitlement. I'd love to own a Bentley, but guess what, I can't afford one. I drive a Honda. Same as I cant afford a club with a six figure equity buy-in and $25,000 dues. So, in the end, like any consumer, I join a club that I can afford and that represents a value to me.

 

Public access golf is no different. You can play high end daily fees at $175+ per round, and your expectations of the course and experience will be in line with that, just as they will if you choose to play your local $25 goat track...lol

[BNGL]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> >

> > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> >

>

> In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

>

> The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

>

> No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

>

> I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

 

I worked a private club located on the beach and river in Jupiter area...very private but had a very healthy membership of 386 with no cap on membership. I was also a member of a club in area which was healthy and stable as well. Now I didn’t get to know the financials of every club in the area but those on the same level as us (again high end and not really representing the average country club: Jupiter Hills, Medalist, Bears Club, Loxahatchee, Lost Tree, Loblolly, Jupiter Island, MacArthur, Seminole) were all very very healthy. The club I am at now (top 100 in the country) is again in a great spot financially and has all the members it can handle.

 

Do I see them creating new golfers? No not really. But I do have a terrific example of a private club that is. Suntree Golf Club in Viera Florida. It’s basically maxed out a capacity I believe, raised dues and initiation (still under 7k I believe) but there summer and junior programs are exploding. It has provided an opportunity to juniors in the community to play with other juniors (it’s a largely golf cart community). Granted that’s a limited example, but it can be done I think.

[GolfChannel]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

>

> As for access, golf is never going to be cheap. I dont really understand the entitlement. I'd love to own a Bentley, but guess what, I can't afford one. I drive a Honda. Same as I cant afford a club with a six figure equity buy-in and $25,000 dues. So, in the end, like any consumer, I join a club that I can afford and that represents a value to me.

>

> Public access golf is no different. You can play high end daily fees at $175+ per round, and your expectations of the course and experience will be in line with that, just as they will if you choose to play your local $25 goat track...lol

 

This is probably another sign of our disconnect, goat tracks around here cost $12. Anything in the $25-50 is pretty nice. We have our uber nice courses which range from $60-150.

[dpb5031]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

> >

> > As for access, golf is never going to be cheap. I dont really understand the entitlement. I'd love to own a Bentley, but guess what, I can't afford one. I drive a Honda. Same as I cant afford a club with a six figure equity buy-in and $25,000 dues. So, in the end, like any consumer, I join a club that I can afford and that represents a value to me.

> >

> > Public access golf is no different. You can play high end daily fees at $175+ per round, and your expectations of the course and experience will be in line with that, just as they will if you choose to play your local $25 goat track...lol

>

> This is probably another sign of our disconnect, goat tracks around here cost $12. Anything in the $25-50 is pretty nice. We have our uber nice courses which range from $60-150.

 

Numbers may be different, but the principles are the same. Tough to maintain a golf course well anywhere in the country off of $12 greens fees though unless its subsidized by the city/county. Generally speaking, you still only get what you pay for and it's all market driven.

[GolfChannel]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

> > >

> > > As for access, golf is never going to be cheap. I dont really understand the entitlement. I'd love to own a Bentley, but guess what, I can't afford one. I drive a Honda. Same as I cant afford a club with a six figure equity buy-in and $25,000 dues. So, in the end, like any consumer, I join a club that I can afford and that represents a value to me.

> > >

> > > Public access golf is no different. You can play high end daily fees at $175+ per round, and your expectations of the course and experience will be in line with that, just as they will if you choose to play your local $25 goat track...lol

> >

> > This is probably another sign of our disconnect, goat tracks around here cost $12. Anything in the $25-50 is pretty nice. We have our uber nice courses which range from $60-150.

>

> Numbers may be different, but the principles are the same. Tough to maintain a golf course well anywhere in the country off of $12 greens fees though unless its subsidized by the city/county. Generally speaking, you still only get what you pay for and it's all market driven.

 

The $12 course is a literal goat patch. The kind where only the deluded think it’s nice. Some of our nice courses can get down around $12-15 if you don’t mind a 2:00 tee time in the Florida heat in the middle of the Summer (this is actually one of my favorite times to golf).

[GolfChannel]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

> > >

> > > As for access, golf is never going to be cheap. I dont really understand the entitlement. I'd love to own a Bentley, but guess what, I can't afford one. I drive a Honda. Same as I cant afford a club with a six figure equity buy-in and $25,000 dues. So, in the end, like any consumer, I join a club that I can afford and that represents a value to me.

> > >

> > > Public access golf is no different. You can play high end daily fees at $175+ per round, and your expectations of the course and experience will be in line with that, just as they will if you choose to play your local $25 goat track...lol

> >

> > This is probably another sign of our disconnect, goat tracks around here cost $12. Anything in the $25-50 is pretty nice. We have our uber nice courses which range from $60-150.

>

> Numbers may be different, but the principles are the same. Tough to maintain a golf course well anywhere in the country off of $12 greens fees though unless its subsidized by the city/county. Generally speaking, you still only get what you pay for and it's all market driven.

 

Also, along those lines and possibly a model for successful city owned public courses “The Park 9” (Winter Park Golf Course), which I am sure if you are plugged into courses you are aware of, is only $16 for 9 holes and $21 total if you decide to play the 9 twice.

[thesamwise]

> @buckeyefl said:

That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

>

Let me guess: you view yourself as one of the aforementioned Giants (who is currently looking down at his computer or phone?).

 

An intellectually honest position would have no place for this kind of hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Yes, previous generations stormed the beaches at Normandy. One of the greatest and bravest events in human history, without a doubt. They did a number of other things to change our society and our world for the better. Without a doubt.

 

They also created (and maintain) many policies and practices that have made it so that millenials will, for the first time in at least 100 years, have a standard of living lower than their parents. This is a fact, not an opinion. Again, the economic data is crystal clear, and a simple Google search will clarify this.

 

One doesn't cancel out the other, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that something this complicated and multifaceted can be reduced to such an extreme.

 

This isn't an attack: I just agree with your first sentence.

 

 

 

 

 

[buckeyefl]

> @thesamwise said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

> >

> Let me guess: you view yourself as one of the aforementioned Giants (who is currently looking down at his computer or phone?).

>

> An intellectually honest position would have no place for this kind of hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Yes, previous generations stormed the beaches at Normandy. One of the greatest and bravest events in human history, without a doubt. They did a number of other things to change our society and our world for the better. Without a doubt.

>

> They also created (and maintain) many policies and practices that have made it so that millenials will, for the first time in the twentieth century, have a standard of living lower than their parents. This is a fact, not an opinion. Again, the economic data is crystal clear, and a simple Google search will clarify this.

>

> One doesn't cancel out the other, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that something this complicated and multifaceted can be reduced to such an extreme.

>

> This isn't an attack: I just agree with your first sentence.

>

>

>

>

>

 

I most certainly wasn't talking about myself so I just stopped there. Hopefully you didn't waste to much time on the rest after that massive swing and a miss.

[thesamwise]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @thesamwise said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

> > >

> > Let me guess: you view yourself as one of the aforementioned Giants (who is currently looking down at his computer or phone?).

> >

> > An intellectually honest position would have no place for this kind of hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Yes, previous generations stormed the beaches at Normandy. One of the greatest and bravest events in human history, without a doubt. They did a number of other things to change our society and our world for the better. Without a doubt.

> >

> > They also created (and maintain) many policies and practices that have made it so that millenials will, for the first time in the twentieth century, have a standard of living lower than their parents. This is a fact, not an opinion. Again, the economic data is crystal clear, and a simple Google search will clarify this.

> >

> > One doesn't cancel out the other, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that something this complicated and multifaceted can be reduced to such an extreme.

> >

> > This isn't an attack: I just agree with your first sentence.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> I most certainly wasn't talking about myself so I just stopped there. Hopefully you didn't waste to much time on the rest after that massive swing and a miss.

 

Perfect illustration of my point. Just perfect. You couldn't have proved it any better if you stuck your fingers in your ears and started shouting "I can't hear you!"

I can tell that you are not interested in having a serious discussion about this. Good luck.

[Shilgy]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> >

> > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> >

>

> In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

>

> The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

>

> No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

>

> I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

 

You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

 

Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

[LeoLeo99]

I hope to join a private club when I retire. Full of people like me. Or at least a lot of people like me. I was a member of a private club for 3 years. It was great. You knew many people, could always get a match going. had a ton of fun, lots of tournaments and travel to other private clubs. It was cheap. $1000 a year for unlimited golf and I worked 5 minutes away.

 

Now, the private courses have gone public or are begging for new members. I don't want gourmet restaurant, tennis, or pool. I want to walk the course anytime I want and have a Saturday night dinner dance with live entertainment in the bar. No equity and $2500 a year. I like the UK model.