The decline of the country club

[dpb5031]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> > >

> > > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> > >

> >

> > In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

> >

> > The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

> >

> > No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

> >

> > I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

>

> You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

>

> Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

 

Exactly...It's all about good dudes and a regular competitive game.

 

In terms of trying to grow the game, at my club in NJ we had amazingly inexpensive membership options (practically 50% dues) for under 40, and dirt cheap for 25 and under. You need a pipeline to remain sustainable, and you hope the younger generation grows into it. The challenge we faced was getting them to engage. The few that did ended up loving it and really added to the fun. No club really wants trunk slammers.

 

Edited to add: I wish those deals existed when I was younger. I paid full freight the entire time ? (I'm 51 now). Again, market driven...

[ohioglfr]

This matter reminds me of the demise of the Officers' and NCOs' Clubs on military installations in the '90's. The clubs were quite nice and well run, but increasing fees and other venues off-base pretty much killed them.

[BearQ]

My area has introduced very competitive rates for intermediates 26-32, and also some clubs offer meaningful discount till age 40.

 

This has helped bring back the most crucial population to golf in my region. Casuals won’t keep the game alive around here lol too many clubs to keep running.

 

My issues with my last ‘country club’ - spent most $$$ and resources on non golf things = restaurant, tv, dining. While putting nothing into making the golf experience or practice area or a new workout area. The focus was how can we get people off the course ASAP to sit in the clubhouse as long as possible to save our failed restaurant.

 

Junior programs, gym plans, improvements to the course all were never gonna happen. GM and staff almost hated golf in a sense too. Unfortunately this story is a template for many issues with country clubs around here.

 

Priority should always be high class golf to me, everything else is a social club and many other options for that. If the courses bunkers suck and you spent 50k for some new tvs and bar stools...

 

I join a golf club to play at a great golf facility. I didn’t realize the focus would drift so many other directions and golf was at the bottom

[mark174ace]

> “The Great Recession changed the club’s fortunes. As the Wall Street Journal recently reported, Americans born between 1981 and 1996 are financially outmatched by every generation since the Depression. Despite higher levels of education, millennials have “less wealth, less property, lower marriage rates, and fewer children.”

 

Less marriage and children maybe the millennials are smarter than I thought. ;)

[68bronco]

I joined a private country club 4 years ago and it has been a true guilty pleasure. I’m embarrassed to say what we paid for the initiation but i’ve 100% thoroughly enjoyed being a member and wouldn’t change a thing. As a few have already said, I totally appreciate being around a group that loves golf and doesn’t put up with a bunch of riff-raff, immature horse s*** behavior out on the course, respects the game and his fellow members. I can get a game for fun or for stakes at anytime of the day - weekly and weekends.

We enjoy the special events at the club, member tourneys, member - GST events, theme parties and socials. Our kids enjoy playing tennis and hanging with friends at the pool. We know they are totally safe there - how comforting it is in today’s society!

Those of you on this thread poo-pooing the country club either haven’t experienced being a member at the ‘right’ club or don’t have enough personality/confidence/openness to fully appreciate the advantages that membership offers just by showing up and participating at the club.

 

[LeftDaddy]

Do we mean “private clubs” or “country clubs”? There is some overlap between the two, but some differences as well. I would put country clubs as a specific version of private club, but there are other versions as well.

 

In my area (Richmond, VA), private clubs (including country clubs) are doing OK. Not great, as many are pushing memberships and lowering initiation fees, etc., but they are mostly hanging on. The upper end clubs are mostly still thriving, and still charging decent initiation fees, etc. 2008 hit the area reasonably hard and it changed the private club dynamic a bit, but the model is still hanging on.

 

I recently joined a higher end private club. It has some non-golf amenities (decent clubhouse, great food, etc) but the charms of the club are almost all in the golf. Pace of play is amazing. Has a nice caddie program. Course is in great shape year-round. Can play basically anytime I want. I could go on.

 

The point is, I have no doubt that specific variants of the country club model are struggling, BUT, I believe that the industry will continue to right-size and innovate itself so that some version of what most of us love lives on. Just like in basically every other industry. There’s a market for “it”, and people will build it if so.

[Ferguson]

You can't throw all clubs into one bucket. It comes down to the individual club and its ability to evolve with the times. To do that, it takes pragmatic decisions, financial management and good leadership.

 

 

[North Butte]

WIthin say an hour drive of my house, there are no "private clubs" which aren't "country clubs". They all have fancy dining rooms, elaborate clubhouses, swimming pools, tennis courts and a staffing payroll commensurate with all those facilities. Most were created as part of residential developments as a "lifestyle amenity" that includes golf as one item on the checklist.

 

And all but one of them is perpetually on the edge of insolvency because there were about a zillion of them built in the 70's, 80's and 90's on the assumption that every year there would be more and more and more families looking to pay ever increasing dues for those "amenities".

 

I would love to be a member of a "private golf club" with an excellent course, three hundred or so golfers are members and none of the enormous financial drain from all the non-golf amenities. But it would mean joining a place 100 miles away, which means I'd still need to find a local place to play regularly.

[gioguy21]

nothing is cheap in nj...

 

you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

 

my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

[Lodestone]

When I moved to the small NY State town where I spent my working years I joined the local Country Club. This was in 1978. The course was quirky but beautifully maintained, and in fact has hosted several NY State Ams, as well as a couple of NY State Mid-Ams. The clubhouse and dining facility, the part that made it a "Country Club" instead of just "A Real Nice Golf Course" was always a drain financially.. It always took more resources to run and maintain, than it took in. However in 1978 there were still enough of the old rich dudes who treasured the country club aspect, and I will say the "exclusivity" that came with it, that the club continued to raise dues, lose members, take money away from the golf course maintenance, to keep it going as a country club.

40 years later those old rich dudes are now nicely represented by bronze plaques next to some maple trees along the first fairway. As a last dying gasp they managed to leave, as their legacy, a crippling debt incurred so they could build a 7 million dollar clubhouse.

I left the club before this fiasco was undertaken, and I live 50 miles away from it now, but I hear they can't afford to keep the half-way house staffed and open now, and many long-time members my age have left, tired of the endless succession of "assessments" to keep the place afloat.

Like me, they are golfing happily at semi-publics, publics, and monies, with unostentatious clubhouses.

I hear the course at my old place is still nice, somehow. In fact, a group of guys from my new semi-public club is heading down there Thursday to play it, and I will be among them.

 

In 1978 when I first joined, many little NY State towns in our region had a private club. Ithaca, Cortland, Corning, Geneva, Elmira. Many of these have gone the semi-public route as the job situation in these towns have made it difficult to maintain a private membership with enough resources to keep the clubs private and exclusive.

[Z1ggy16]

> @gioguy21 said:

> nothing is cheap in nj...

>

> you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

>

> my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

$8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

 

Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy a** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

 

Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

 

As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

[gioguy21]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > nothing is cheap in nj...

> >

> > you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

> >

> > my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

> $8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

>

> Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy **** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

>

> Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

>

> As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

 

$8-9k is crystal springs membership...so, that's what you get. obviously up from there. a reasonable expectation or middle ground in NJ is in the $12-18k/year dues range.

 

 

[uitar9]

> @MountainGoat said:

> I’m not convinced that traditional country clubs are in decline. What’s in decline are real estate clubs, i.e., clubs built to support housing developments. Those were built on a false model and have been failing right and left.

 

We have at least 4 of those floundering in our area, one closed and one recently gone into bankruptcy. The latest due to massive cost over runs on a $6-7 million dollar club house renovation/upgrade.

 

"Build it and they will come" is not a great business model.

 

The reality is the impact of the massive declining boomer generation and the impact of on-line/social media is having on many industries, golf is no exception.

 

 

[Z1ggy16]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > nothing is cheap in nj...

> > >

> > > you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

> > >

> > > my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

> > $8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

> >

> > Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy **** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

> >

> > Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

> >

> > As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

>

> $8-9k is crystal springs membership...so, that's what you get. obviously up from there. a reasonable expectation or middle ground in NJ is in the $12-18k/year dues range.

>

>

 

That includes all the courses up there in CS? I think $8-9K would be appropriate for Echo... No range, a meh club house/bar, no other amenities and just one small to mid sized putting green. A nicely kept course but nothing crazy. $40k for Hamilton is insane but I think there's enough money in that area to keep them going. I was told they are building a $2m 2 level indoor simulator bay this winter. So0o0 something must be going right.

 

By any chance, do you know how much Baltusrol is?

[gioguy21]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > nothing is cheap in nj...

> > > >

> > > > you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

> > > >

> > > > my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

> > > $8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

> > >

> > > Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy **** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

> > >

> > > Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

> > >

> > > As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

> >

> > $8-9k is crystal springs membership...so, that's what you get. obviously up from there. a reasonable expectation or middle ground in NJ is in the $12-18k/year dues range.

> >

> >

>

> That includes all the courses up there in CS? I think $8-9K would be appropriate for Echo... No range, a meh club house/bar, no other amenities and just one small to mid sized putting green. A nicely kept course but nothing crazy. $40k for Hamilton is insane but I think there's enough money in that area to keep them going. I was told they are building a $2m 2 level indoor simulator bay this winter. So0o0 something must be going right.

>

> **By any chance, do you know how much Baltusrol is? **

i've heard some things -- and i've heard it depends on who you are and who you know -- you might get different pricing.

 

[JohnnyCashForever]

>

> @Ferguson said:

it takes pragmatic decisions, financial management and good leadership.

>

>

Good advice...and very generalizable to other aspects of life.

 

[Roody]

I just joined my first fully private club in August of last year. They were losing members, and were down to I think about 190 members not long before I joined. They offered a pretty good deal for new members. Cheap initiation fee, lower dues for the first 4 years, and everything is included in the price.

 

It's less than a year later, and we are at 308 members.

 

The club is thriving, very busy, lots of events. I absolutely love it there. I've made a ton of new golfing friends. I have no trouble finding a game to play in. No tee times, just show up when you wanna play. I love the facilities. The course is in fantastic shape, and drains extremely well. With all the rain we've gotten this spring, many of the public courses in my area are under water. My course hasn't denied carts out one day yet this year.

 

An added and unexpected bonus is how much my wife is loving it. She's already played more golf this year than she has in the past 5 years. And she's making new friends, and really getting into golf.

 

As I've said many times in other threads about this sort of topic, you can't quantify the value of a private club membership by the "cost per round" alone. If you don't find value in all the other things that a private club offers, then maybe it's just not for you. And that's ok, people find value and enjoyment in different things in life.

[third-times-a-charm]

> @GolfChannel said:

> 38 year old young professional with an established home and family. I can afford to join a club, but why would I when I live in an area where the best courses are public and it’s far cheaper to pay per 18 holes versus some crazy monthly or annual fee not worth what you get out of it (thanks GolfNow and the like).

>

> I think the common sense answer for the decline in club membership is our culture has largely moved beyond “clubs” and exclusion, but the clubs haven’t evolved with the change.

>

> If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard.

 

I live in the same area as you, and I am a member at one of the 5 privates in our area. My sentiment is the opposite - and I'm 5 years younger than you.

 

IMO your post shows how little you know about the private clubs in the area where you live. None of them have 'country club' attitudes except MAYBE 1 or 2 of them. The others are very accessible (have aspiring amateur memberships, etc) and/or are VERY golf focused clubs (Bay Hill/Orange Tree, as you mentioned in a subsequent post even) that have awesome family-friendly events and also do club-league course-sharing for ladies groups/mens groups/etc as an example of how not 'country clubbish' they are.

 

Playing golf in orlando in the summer is great and all for $25-40 per round, but the course conditions vary wildly and you are still stuck with 4-5 hour rounds. Don't even mention when the weather cools down in Orlando - even the goat tracks are priced at $60+ per round and 5-6 hour rounds are normal.

 

YMMV I guess.

[Ferguson]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > nothing is cheap in nj...

> > > > >

> > > > > you have to have a serious chunk of disposable income to belong to a country club here in jersey -- yes, i know there are a few options for under $3k a year (not including initiation fees, just dues)...however, to get in a fairly decent club with more to offer, you're easily looking at closer to $8-9k a year in dues (obviously it goes up from there - again, not including initiation fees).

> > > > >

> > > > > my wife and i just don't have that kinda cash to throw around; we value other things in our life too - not just me playing golf.

> > > > $8-9k??? Sign me up (if I had that money).

> > > >

> > > > Hamilton Farm (not even a country club) is insane. $150k to join, $40k a year after. No pool.. No tennis... Just golf and a really fancy **** locker room. And members still have to pay the normal rate for lessons, too. Their outdoor range is very nice but it's not _that_ much nicer than a range like Royce Brook. I feel like trash driving my little Mazda through the parking lot between all the Benz, Range Rovers and Porche's.... I think that club is for people with so much money they don't mind blowing ten's of thousands for just a few extra golf amenities (range full of ProV's, etc).

> > > >

> > > > Heard Echo Lake is about $40k to join and $13k a year. New Jersey National (right down the road from me) around $6k a year (maybe more though now...), unknown on the initiation.

> > > >

> > > > As far as the economy goes, I think in small little bubbles, these places will still exist because rich people tend to stay rich. I was told that Hamilton basically makes no money and that member dues basically keep the place running and that's about it. I imagine it's the same for most privates, especially the swanky ones.

> > >

> > > $8-9k is crystal springs membership...so, that's what you get. obviously up from there. a reasonable expectation or middle ground in NJ is in the $12-18k/year dues range.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That includes all the courses up there in CS? I think $8-9K would be appropriate for Echo... No range, a meh club house/bar, no other amenities and just one small to mid sized putting green. A nicely kept course but nothing crazy. $40k for Hamilton is insane but I think there's enough money in that area to keep them going. I was told they are building a $2m 2 level indoor simulator bay this winter. So0o0 something must be going right.

> >

> > **By any chance, do you know how much Baltusrol is? **

> i've heard some things -- and i've heard it depends on who you are and who you know -- you might get different pricing.

>

 

What works in life works in business.

[BeerPerHole]

Joined a very nice CC a little over a year ago. Country clubs are simply too expensive for too many families. It's a stretch for us but we have zero debt - which seems pretty unusual given what our friends are up to. I joined for my kids, mainly. But, I love the course and the overall facility. It's beautiful and only minutes from my house. The discussion I've had a few times with fellow members keeps coming back to that they need to be less of a grumpy old guys' club and start welcoming young people and kids. Overall, if you're serious about your golf a CC can be a pretty good approach. If not...eh...

[woods991]

For those of you that are not members and are stating the so called "death" are so wrong. Couple of add on's from previous posts, the CC membership is much more than just golf. The family and meeting new folks is a large part that hardly is mentioned. Their are some great deals out their due to the decline of CC some clubs I would have never dreamed about joining are now obtainable at a moderately low price, the honest issue is the "death" of golf to some degree. I hope I do not offend anyone when I say this it truly is not my intention. But the reality is the newer generations (I am 44) are for the most part lazy and cheap. I work and have worked in the financial sector for all of my career and by far have never dealt with "today's type" we have become a video game/computer type of society with a touch of greed with a what have you done for me lately attitude. I have many of friends that work as Financial Advisors/Analysts that also have had a hard time understanding the concept and thought process of the newer generations. Always trying to save a buck which is always wise but please understand you need to spend some to keep the economy going, Finance 101! So that is my two cents, the CC life has been wonderful for my family and quite honestly I believe I have just may have saved some money by joining. Made plenty of new friends and have no regrets!

[dpb5031]

As a BOD member at my club from 2010 thru 2018 I can add some color to the challenges clubs have faced post-recession as well as some interesting facts. My club in NJ was built in 1994, opened all 18 in 1995. Practically all of the private clubs in the area had waiting lists back then, but it was before the real golf course boom. I joined pre-cronstruction and paid a $4k non refundable initiation fee. Family dues are currently about $8700 annually with an unlimited cart plan at $1800. Not cheap, even for Jersey, but not crazy compared to the high-end stuff. The course & facilities cost the original owners over $11 mil to build. In 2012 the surviving spouse of the owner gave up and sold the club for $2.8 mil...a mere fraction of true reproduction costs. Think about that...

 

At the peak, our non-refundable (non-equity) initiation fee was $25k. Through 2007 we had approximately 310 full members, and another 150 ancillary "limited sports" and "pool only" members. By 2009 after the recession hit, we were down to 126 full members and the place was sucking wind. The sale to the new owners went through in 2012. As advisory Board members, we tried desperately to help the new owners succeed. One of the things that we convinced them was that it would be easier to bring back the wedding, banquet, and special events business post-recession than to attract new members. The previous owners had been reluctant to adjust pricing, and business in these areas was down >70%. So, we hired a new banquet manager and young event planner, slashed prices, and improved facilities making it a beautiful wedding venue. Long story short, this was the golden move. Today those operations are busier than ever and help subsidize golf operations. We also slashed prices for junior members and young executives (under 40). I left after last year when I moved to FL and I think we were up to about 220 "Full" members and the place is doing OK.

 

Oh, and just as a side note, if you spend a lot of time at your club, as a rule of thumb, expect to spend about the equivalent of your annual dues on F&B, special events, tournament fees, member-guest, and carts.

[Caddykev]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I think many clubs are in the process or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves. Aging facilities, competition, combined with an aging baby boomer population necessitates it. The strong will survive, and not only the uber high-end. It's market driven like anything else.

This is definitely the case here on Long Island. A lot of clubs really got hammered during the recession, and the aging of their membership. Inwood for example was an almost entirely Jewish club, and was pretty pricey. However, my buddy who isn’t Jewish joined recently for next to nothing, and his dues are pretty low as well as the club is trying to reinvent itself. I caddie on the east of Long Island and see first hand the issue of the aging membership. One guy I caddie for has 4 boys, and belongs to Winged Foot. None of his boys who are all millennial age play at all, and have zero interest of him getting them in. Where I caddie a handful took advantage of the reduced junior membership, but they are trunk members since the atmosphere is so stale for them. The one guy was even cut off by the bartender after his 3rd south side even though he was taking an Uber. The high end exclusive clubs will always survive, I do see a lot of clubs in Met section going the route of Engineers CC in the next ten years where they are sold, then eventually developed. I’m 36, and aside from my college teammates, very few of my friends and co workers play golf.

 

 

[rsh0308]

I’m 35. Joined a place this past winter and already played more golf this year than the last 5 years combined. Many of my HS and college friends played but I moved away from home and none live in my area. Only 1 coworker out of 70 or so plays regularly but is a member at a club 1 hour away so not getting out much with him.

I’ve already reconnected with some old friends who I didn’t even know were members. Lots of younger guys who are serious players here. Pool is open and kids love it.

Best financial decision I have made recently. That being said, made my last student loan payment and paid off wife’s car last year too, so finally gave us some wiggle room.

[tom.lockhart]

Love my membership and can never go back to public golf ever. It's not cheap in my area - Bellevue/Seattle area - but all the clubs around here are thriving and I've met so many dudes in my age that love golf as much as I do. It's been amazing.

 

I met a ton of awesome dudes and we all love golf. Our families have now become friends, our kids play together and our wives have picked up the game now and play together.

 

The events are a f****** blast, pace of play is amazing, course is in fantastic shape around the clock, practice facilities. I play so much more golf now than I did before and that's AFTER having a kid.

 

Taking away the "stigma" of a full round is amazing. I play 9 a lot. Sometimes I'll play 3/6 depending on how much time I have. I practice short game and full swing a TON more than I ever did before. Sometimes I bring my wife and 2 year old out for an evening 9 and then grab dinner in the clubhouse.

[BeerPerHole]

> @"tom.lockhart" said:

> Love my membership and can never go back to public golf ever. It's not cheap in my area - Bellevue/Seattle area - but all the clubs around here are thriving and I've met so many dudes in my age that love golf as much as I do. It's been amazing.

>

> I met a ton of awesome dudes and we all love golf. Our families have now become friends, our kids play together and our wives have picked up the game now and play together.

>

> The events are a **** blast, pace of play is amazing, course is in fantastic shape around the clock, practice facilities. I play so much more golf now than I did before and that's AFTER having a kid.

>

> Taking away the "stigma" of a full round is amazing. I play 9 a lot. Sometimes I'll play 3/6 depending on how much time I have. I practice short game and full swing a TON more than I ever did before. Sometimes I bring my wife and 2 year old out for an evening 9 and then grab dinner in the clubhouse.

Sounds a lot like us. I've lived up there in Seattle area a few times and can imagine the clubs are pricey. Our club down here is a little golf mecca. The members truly love getting out, even if it's for 9 after work.

 

[Hack Daddy]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > > > > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > You would really have to quantify "harder"and you experience besides academia in order to make that grand of a proclamation. Also "creative" doesn't make the world go round and is only available to people once someone does the real hard work.

> > > >

> > > > Almost every quantifiable piece of evidence points to this generation working harder in the classroom (students now by and large take a much larger AP/magnet/college prep rich class load versus the old read and rote memorization classroom) and the work place (American workers continue to be among the most productive in the world), the only evidence which continues to disprove this conclusion is of the colloquial nature.

> > >

> > > You seem really off base on several fronts such as rote memorization. You are really going to hang your hat on that one given the influx of standardized testing across the country which promotes learning to pass a specific test over actual learning? Sorry friend but that's just one example of your disconnect and opinion based on opinion. You are doing the equivalent of thinking all golfers are scratch because everyone you play with happens to be at the level and that motivated. It simply doesn't hold water in the real world and you've talked out of both sides of your mouth several times in this thread. Drive on though as there are plenty of windmills out there to be taken out.

> >

> > So, now you’re an expert in my field. Good times.

> Well when someone makes a ridiculous statement isn't it dishonest not to correct them so their misinformation doesn't spread like a disease? It's pretty well documented that rote memorization is the requirement of the day in order to get out of most high schools and most teachers I know hate it. One would think someone in the field would be more aware of what happens at the foundation of our education system.

>

> Well as in most things you have said and I pointed out, you live in a small bubble with obvious limited exposure to the world around you. "Generation" doesn't just mean the people you are around daily. Academia has a bad habit of doing that to good people.

>

> Your points / opinions have holes the size of the private courses you get play on someone else's dime while talking bad about them and ignoring the hard work put into the club. That's not even going into your discounting of the shoulders of Giants that your current generation of over achievers walks on daily while looking down at their cell phones.

>

> You mentioned a "real world" that doesn't exist anymore and yet you don't seem to know what makes the world go around and how everything we have today comes from the hard work of past generations from the "real world" and not the "creative" powers of your star students.

>

> This comment in particular speaks volumes.

>

> "If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

>

> ". I also have a close relationship with two local private clubs (Bay Hill and Orange Tree) that help and provide privileges to our high school golf program free of cost."

>

> So help me out, should the two clubs mentioned be dismantled because they are kind enough to help you out? Do you tell ownership and the members how close minded and exclusionary they are for being a private club? Isn't opening the course to everyone but charging "whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard" exclusionary? It would seem to be since you mentioned exclusion through finance.

 

School psychologist checking-in.

 

Not sure where you're getting your data or info, but familiarize yourself with common core - and what present day curriculum standards and testing are.

 

[Hack Daddy]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> > >

> > > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> > >

> >

> > In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

> >

> > The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

> >

> > No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

> >

> > I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

>

> You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

>

> Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

 

It is a broken model. All I want is the golf, a meal, and a drink. Myself and everyone I know don't need all the other fluff of a club. It's like a fraternity - paying for friends.

Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

[Shades234]

> @GolfChannel said:

> > @"Big Ben" said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > The clubs that have done well around where I am are the ones that are either the very top end ones (there are still plenty of rich people), or are the ones that got rid of the "country club" mentality and focused less on amenities and more on providing golf at a good price.

> > >

> > > Btw in regards to wealth, I have heard some people mention it and I think it's worth discussing too....we seem to have WAY more things than we used to . So sometimes I'll see someone who is 35 or whatever and they'll say they have no savings, but they have 2 cars, all their kids have iPads, they're subscribed to 2-3 different streaming services, the dad has a "man cave" with 20000$ worth of electronics etc....

> > >

> > > Growing up my dad did pretty well but we had one car we all shared and one TV, and personal electronics didn't exist. Some of the "cost of living" stuff is true, but some of it is pretty murky. How much stuff we have now do we really "need" vs 25 years ago, or are they more "wants" that everyone just gets without thinking about it.

> >

> > Bingo! I can’t ever remember wanting and asking for something and getting it without a ton of sweat equity. I think we can all agree we live in a me/now society.

>

> I have no idea why it’s common place for people to throw others under the bus, especially those which they know nothing about. As a teacher and professor, this generation from my experience works harder than any prior generation. The issue I have with my students is they know how to work hard, they don’t however know how to work smart. They will spend 8 hours on something that should have taken 4 hours, because for all the technology they have no one has ever actually taught them how to use it effectively. Just like the country club issue, education is still on the model of an era which died decades ago. We are quite literally holding back the greatest creative generation in our history because of our ineptitude and expectations based on a “real world” which doesn’t actually exist anymore.

 

Your students take 8 hours to finish a 4 hour assignment because they are working 4 hours and browsing social media/YouTube for the other 4.

[Shilgy]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @GolfChannel said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @GolfChannel said, "Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard."

> > > >

> > > > Funny, most private clubs do this exactly. Dues and course quality determine who joins based on perceived value and affordability.

> > > >

> > >

> > > In a market that allows it. Where you lived in NJ you basically had to join a club, whereas I almost had to in Charlotte. In a major city like Orlando with all the international traffic there is absolutely no necessity to join a club as everything a club offers I can get for almost none of the cost sans the round of golf. Most clubs in Orlando for that reason are semi-private.

> > >

> > > The question is whether the full private model works long term? Also, I added the question does that model promote access and growth of the game?

> > >

> > > No one has actually answered that they think private clubs are growing in terms of membership or whether they think that model will create more new golfers.

> > >

> > > I understand that just like NJ and Charlotte, in terms of experience I am an outlier as well in terms of access.

> >

> > You cannot get what a private club offers elsewhere at public tracks. You can get the golf.... You can get the dining and the bar.... But you absolutely are not replacing the comraderie of a private. The people make a club, not the course or restaurant. But as you do not seem to need that fellowship a club of not for you.

> >

> > Just because it's not for you does not mean it is a broken model. But it does seem clear that your generation does not in general put a very high value on that fellowship.

>

> It is a broken model. All I want is the golf, a meal, and a drink. Myself and everyone I know don't need all the other fluff of a club. It's like a fraternity - paying for friends.

> Another thing is, as a highly educated Black man, in a white collar job, making over six figures - I STILL get "looks" when I demo a club. As GC said, the culture of the Club is going to be its demise.

 

The golf clubs demise has been written about for over 50 years.

 

You stated you just need "golf, a meal and a drink" and none of the other fluff. That's a golf club and they are readily available in most areas. Not all private golf clubs are the big huge country clubs many of you speak of.

If the golf meal and drink are all you need then stay playing at publics. If you ever look for the comraderie of like minded folks then you'll want to join a golf club.