The decline of the country club

[Ferguson]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > **Re: ** @Ferguson, you're making a lot of assumptions, not paying attention to detail, and putting a lot of quotes around statements that did not come from me. I said member surveys AND exit interviews, not just exit surveys, and the responses were both clear and informative.

> >

> > We've done plenty to change and adapt the business model and the culture, but to be honest, we were founded in 1995 and were always relatively laid back compared to many old school-type clubs. Some examples would be allowing for jeans and other more casual forms of dress in the mixed grill, not serving food on slow days, reducing club tournament schedule by 20% to free up more weekend tee times, allowing push carts and walking 7 days per week with no restrictions, adding an unlimited cart plan for an upfront fee, installing a high quality synthetic turf hitting area primarily for outside outings and inclement weather days, expanding our short game practice area, making the final day of the men's member-guest completely casual, with no formal dinner dance like the old days..lol.

> >

> > We're far from attempting to create cookie-cutter members. We were down to 126 full members when I was elected to the BOD post-recession. When I left last year we were at 220 fulls (still down from the boom years of over 300), but more importantly, we were able to get the maintenance budget back up to where it needed to be to keep the course pristine and still be profitable overall. Next will be some much needed capital improvement projects for the course.

> >

> > I don't disagree that It's important for any existing club (or business) to be attractive to Millennials, but you can't do it at the expense of your existing base...especially when about 30% of your existing membership accounts for 75% of your revenue. For every person you make happy, you've got to be careful not to tick two others off. What we've found, contrary to your beliefs, is that those of the younger generation who get involved, tend to enjoy themselves and ultimately become spenders at the club. Those who don't get involved become "club hoppers"...chasing the latest young exec deal being offered across town.

> >

> > You wouldn't believe how many new members I reached out to (most of whom had never belonged to a club previously) who had absolutely zero idea what a Men's Member-Guest even was, but once explained to them, ended up participating and having a blast. It's now sold-out in advance with a waiting list. Same goes for our spring inter-club matches and men's night out which we put together for the after work crowd one weekday evening per month that allows members to bring guests out for golf and a prime steak dinner for barely more than the price of the steak and a cart fee, no guest fee.

> >

> > So tell me again how reaching out to new members to welcome them and explain all that the club has to offer is a bad thing. Several years of feedback tells us the opposite.

> >

> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Rarely do I get so fervently involved with topics (apart from those related to Casey Martin, Phil and Kuchar’s dad).

> > Despite what you think, I did take the time to read your posts, especially and carefully.

> >

> > Look at what is driving your action as it relates to “reaching out to new members.” Your so-called welcome wagon approach is motivated by one thing only – get “more spend” from the newbies. You said in an earlier post that clubs are a business, and I agree with that. However, I am not in favor of of the way you portray your approach. I read “your approach” as a portrayal of some sort of “club concierge of hospitality” when all you really care about is gaining more share of wallet. In other words, I get the idea of you being the person “from the BOD” who shows people around, but do you sincerely care about “the member experience?” I think not.

> >

> > Again, there is nothing wrong with what you do in terms of the welcome wagon but let’s be clear as to the primary reason why you are doing it. Revenue.

>

> @Ferguson , you are ABSOLUTELY 100% wrong again. You are entirely off-base and have no idea what you're talking about. Who are you to tell me MY motivations?

>

> My role as an advisory BOD member was as an elected volunteer. The club is for profit, owned by a private entity, not by the members. So it's not member-owned and the new owners had no prior experience in the golf business. None of us had any skin in the game from a business or investment perspective. Every member of our BOD was elected by the membership to be the conduit between membership and the owners. We were all extremely passionate about the club because it was a big part of our lives and none of us wanted to see it go away. We loved the place. Literally EVERYTHING we did (and tried to get the owners to do) was to "enhance member experience," so it wouldn't fail, which it nearly did post-recession. The extent of my selfishness was simply that I had tons of friends there, it was convenient to home, was a great course, and was affordable for me.

>

> So in terms of revenue, absolutely... any place is going to fail without a good balance sheet, so it's obviously important. How shocking! But it was our belief that if the club provided a good membership experience, we'd retain members, and therefore revenue, at least from the golf side of the house, would take care of itself. We helped the owners prioritize capital improvements, membership categories (steep discounts for under 40 yoa, etc.) to meet member expectations for the course, the facilities, and perceived value. We were extraordinarily cognizant of shifting consumer trends, and helped ownership make changes to accommodate appropriately. I already mentioned many of the improvements and changes we made in a prior post. Most had to do with attempting to accommodate the upcoming generation's needs and expectations, while balancing that with keeping the existing membership happy. BTW, not easy.

>

> One thing is for certain. Members who make friends and build a social network at a club are more likely to be retained. They have added incentive to stay if they have friends there, and that's a fact. Otherwise they're chasing the next deal across town, and that does nothing to enhance the member experience for those choosing to remain at our club.

>

> An active membership also enhances the experience for ALL (of which I was obviously a part). Is it a good member experience playing on crappy greens and fairways because the maintenance budget had to be cut? Is it any fun playing in a member-guest with only 3 flights? How about a club championship against only a handful of other players? Or a group throw-in, etc., etc.? Whether you like it or not, golf clubs by their very nature are intended to be communal, otherwise it's simply a golf course with a bunch of random strangers playing golf, it's not "a club." You may argue that this is where things are heading, but I'd disagree.

>

> In your previous posts you attribute several statements to me that were entirely false and that I never wrote. I can only assume that this was pure conjecture on your part based on your own apparently miserable experiences. You claim to have read my posts, yet you put several things in quotes that I never stated, and I take issue with that.I explained quite clearly that members who chose to keep to themselves were never pressured nor shunned. My outreach to new members was absolutely 100% with the most noble of intentions and the feedback I received was unanimously appreciative of the gesture. I never once disparaged Millennials or call them "abnormal" as you've accused me, though I did note some factual behavioral differences. I simply shared my observations of a shift in trends and I explained what our club was doing to appeal to the next generation, while at the same time trying to keep our core/base membership happy and satisfied. It's not necessarily an easy balance.

>

> The topic is about the decline of private clubs. I've shared my experience as a dues paying member and also a non-equity advisory Board member involved in helping the club make the necessary changes to keep it sustainable. And guess what, the initiatives are working. We've made the place more welcoming to new members than was the "old school" way. The club now has a much more active group of members who are less than 40 years old all of whom continue to renew. Membership is up and it's not going anywhere soon.

>

> I'll further suggest to you that next time you decide to get "fervently involved," either improve your reading comprehension or maybe ask a question or two before spouting your entirely faulty and condescending conjecture. I used to think you were clever...

 

Clearly we see things differently when it comes to what each of thinks about "the decline of clubs." It happens. At any rate, it was nice discussing this topic with you. A web forum is cumbersome place to have a discussion about something such as this - people, and their actions related to discretionary spending habits. Best of luck to you and the club.

Happy Father's Day.

 

[dpb5031]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > **Re: ** @Ferguson, you're making a lot of assumptions, not paying attention to detail, and putting a lot of quotes around statements that did not come from me. I said member surveys AND exit interviews, not just exit surveys, and the responses were both clear and informative.

> > >

> > > We've done plenty to change and adapt the business model and the culture, but to be honest, we were founded in 1995 and were always relatively laid back compared to many old school-type clubs. Some examples would be allowing for jeans and other more casual forms of dress in the mixed grill, not serving food on slow days, reducing club tournament schedule by 20% to free up more weekend tee times, allowing push carts and walking 7 days per week with no restrictions, adding an unlimited cart plan for an upfront fee, installing a high quality synthetic turf hitting area primarily for outside outings and inclement weather days, expanding our short game practice area, making the final day of the men's member-guest completely casual, with no formal dinner dance like the old days..lol.

> > >

> > > We're far from attempting to create cookie-cutter members. We were down to 126 full members when I was elected to the BOD post-recession. When I left last year we were at 220 fulls (still down from the boom years of over 300), but more importantly, we were able to get the maintenance budget back up to where it needed to be to keep the course pristine and still be profitable overall. Next will be some much needed capital improvement projects for the course.

> > >

> > > I don't disagree that It's important for any existing club (or business) to be attractive to Millennials, but you can't do it at the expense of your existing base...especially when about 30% of your existing membership accounts for 75% of your revenue. For every person you make happy, you've got to be careful not to tick two others off. What we've found, contrary to your beliefs, is that those of the younger generation who get involved, tend to enjoy themselves and ultimately become spenders at the club. Those who don't get involved become "club hoppers"...chasing the latest young exec deal being offered across town.

> > >

> > > You wouldn't believe how many new members I reached out to (most of whom had never belonged to a club previously) who had absolutely zero idea what a Men's Member-Guest even was, but once explained to them, ended up participating and having a blast. It's now sold-out in advance with a waiting list. Same goes for our spring inter-club matches and men's night out which we put together for the after work crowd one weekday evening per month that allows members to bring guests out for golf and a prime steak dinner for barely more than the price of the steak and a cart fee, no guest fee.

> > >

> > > So tell me again how reaching out to new members to welcome them and explain all that the club has to offer is a bad thing. Several years of feedback tells us the opposite.

> > >

> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Rarely do I get so fervently involved with topics (apart from those related to Casey Martin, Phil and Kuchar’s dad).

> > > Despite what you think, I did take the time to read your posts, especially and carefully.

> > >

> > > Look at what is driving your action as it relates to “reaching out to new members.” Your so-called welcome wagon approach is motivated by one thing only – get “more spend” from the newbies. You said in an earlier post that clubs are a business, and I agree with that. However, I am not in favor of of the way you portray your approach. I read “your approach” as a portrayal of some sort of “club concierge of hospitality” when all you really care about is gaining more share of wallet. In other words, I get the idea of you being the person “from the BOD” who shows people around, but do you sincerely care about “the member experience?” I think not.

> > >

> > > Again, there is nothing wrong with what you do in terms of the welcome wagon but let’s be clear as to the primary reason why you are doing it. Revenue.

> >

> > @Ferguson , you are ABSOLUTELY 100% wrong again. You are entirely off-base and have no idea what you're talking about. Who are you to tell me MY motivations?

> >

> > My role as an advisory BOD member was as an elected volunteer. The club is for profit, owned by a private entity, not by the members. So it's not member-owned and the new owners had no prior experience in the golf business. None of us had any skin in the game from a business or investment perspective. Every member of our BOD was elected by the membership to be the conduit between membership and the owners. We were all extremely passionate about the club because it was a big part of our lives and none of us wanted to see it go away. We loved the place. Literally EVERYTHING we did (and tried to get the owners to do) was to "enhance member experience," so it wouldn't fail, which it nearly did post-recession. The extent of my selfishness was simply that I had tons of friends there, it was convenient to home, was a great course, and was affordable for me.

> >

> > So in terms of revenue, absolutely... any place is going to fail without a good balance sheet, so it's obviously important. How shocking! But it was our belief that if the club provided a good membership experience, we'd retain members, and therefore revenue, at least from the golf side of the house, would take care of itself. We helped the owners prioritize capital improvements, membership categories (steep discounts for under 40 yoa, etc.) to meet member expectations for the course, the facilities, and perceived value. We were extraordinarily cognizant of shifting consumer trends, and helped ownership make changes to accommodate appropriately. I already mentioned many of the improvements and changes we made in a prior post. Most had to do with attempting to accommodate the upcoming generation's needs and expectations, while balancing that with keeping the existing membership happy. BTW, not easy.

> >

> > One thing is for certain. Members who make friends and build a social network at a club are more likely to be retained. They have added incentive to stay if they have friends there, and that's a fact. Otherwise they're chasing the next deal across town, and that does nothing to enhance the member experience for those choosing to remain at our club.

> >

> > An active membership also enhances the experience for ALL (of which I was obviously a part). Is it a good member experience playing on crappy greens and fairways because the maintenance budget had to be cut? Is it any fun playing in a member-guest with only 3 flights? How about a club championship against only a handful of other players? Or a group throw-in, etc., etc.? Whether you like it or not, golf clubs by their very nature are intended to be communal, otherwise it's simply a golf course with a bunch of random strangers playing golf, it's not "a club." You may argue that this is where things are heading, but I'd disagree.

> >

> > In your previous posts you attribute several statements to me that were entirely false and that I never wrote. I can only assume that this was pure conjecture on your part based on your own apparently miserable experiences. You claim to have read my posts, yet you put several things in quotes that I never stated, and I take issue with that.I explained quite clearly that members who chose to keep to themselves were never pressured nor shunned. My outreach to new members was absolutely 100% with the most noble of intentions and the feedback I received was unanimously appreciative of the gesture. I never once disparaged Millennials or call them "abnormal" as you've accused me, though I did note some factual behavioral differences. I simply shared my observations of a shift in trends and I explained what our club was doing to appeal to the next generation, while at the same time trying to keep our core/base membership happy and satisfied. It's not necessarily an easy balance.

> >

> > The topic is about the decline of private clubs. I've shared my experience as a dues paying member and also a non-equity advisory Board member involved in helping the club make the necessary changes to keep it sustainable. And guess what, the initiatives are working. We've made the place more welcoming to new members than was the "old school" way. The club now has a much more active group of members who are less than 40 years old all of whom continue to renew. Membership is up and it's not going anywhere soon.

> >

> > I'll further suggest to you that next time you decide to get "fervently involved," either improve your reading comprehension or maybe ask a question or two before spouting your entirely faulty and condescending conjecture. I used to think you were clever...

>

> Clearly we see things differently when it comes to what each of thinks about "the decline of clubs." It happens. At any rate, it was nice discussing this topic with you. A web forum is cumbersome place to have a discussion about something such as this - people, and their actions related to discretionary spending habits. Best of luck to you and the club.

> Happy Father's Day.

>

 

NP, and thanks Ferg. Sorry I got my back up but after 25 years at my club I'm pretty passionate about it. Not sure if you picked it up, but I moved to Jupiter, FL full-time in Dec. I joined a great semi-private down here (great guys/game, good course, no risk) but still trying to figure out which fully private place will be the "right fit."

[zoned_post_meridiem]

> > @wkuo3 said:

> We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had **broomed** them into the good habits when they were young.

>

 

Well, that sounds a little sinister ... :smile:

 

[Shilgy]

> @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > > @wkuo3 said:

> > We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had **broomed** them into the good habits when they were young.

> >

>

> Well, that sounds a little sinister ... :smile:

>

 

A sweeping generalization? :)

[wkuo3]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > > > @wkuo3 said:

> > > We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had **broomed** them into the good habits when they were young.

> > >

> >

> > Well, that sounds a little sinister ... :smile:

> >

>

> A sweeping generalization? :)

 

The term "grooming" had turned out to have a "sinister" shadow over it, but no different than putting a runaway train onto the track.

Kids are like open book with blank pages. Some of my close friends like to have their own "free range". We , on the other hands didn't put all our faith in the education system. Especially when our children told us the assigned school advisor "advised" them to take it easy and enjoy life as a child.

Now, we were never the "tiger Mom/Dad". But we believed in put the little one on the learning track so when they are ready to make decision for themselves, they will be ready with all the tools they could use to assist the decision making.

One of our kid was questioned by the professor and classmates if "the parents" had suggested and quided them to the path they're on. My kid answered, they were never pressured to do anything they didn't want to do.

We just gave them the tools to make smart decision.

Frankly, I'm okay if one of our kid turned out to be a journeyman carpenter, as long as it would provide an honest living and have enough financial means to do what they want to do in life. Of course, wife's expectation is a little different than mine.

The one single most important thing to teach the kids is, to accept "failure", and knowing life is a marathon, one does not need to be the leader all the time. That will take away a lot of the pressure from the learning process.

 

[Shilgy]

> @wkuo3 said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > > > > @wkuo3 said:

> > > > We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had **broomed** them into the good habits when they were young.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, that sounds a little sinister ... :smile:

> > >

> >

> > A sweeping generalization? :)

>

> The term "grooming" had turned out to have a "sinister" shadow over it, but no different than putting a runaway train onto the track.

> Kids are like open book with blank pages. Some of my close friends like to have their own "free range". We , on the other hands didn't put all our faith in the education system. Especially when our children told us the assigned school advisor "advised" them to take it easy and enjoy life as a child.

> Now, we were never the "tiger Mom/Dad". But we believed in put the little one on the learning track so when they are ready to make decision for themselves, they will be ready with all the tools they could use to assist the decision making.

> One of our kid was questioned by the professor and classmates if "the parents" had suggested and quided them to the path they're on. My kid answered, they were never pressured to do anything they didn't want to do.

> We just gave them the tools to make smart decision.

> Frankly, I'm okay if one of our kid turned out to be a journeyman carpenter, as long as it would provide an honest living and have enough financial means to do what they want to do in life. Of course, wife's expectation is a little different than mine.

> The one single most important thing to teach the kids is, to accept "failure", and knowing life is a marathon, one does not need to be the leader all the time. That will take away a lot of the pressure from the learning process.

>

 

Sorry, it went over your head. The previous post had bolded the word "brooming" when the post meant to write "grooming".

 

Get it? Brooming-sweeping generalization?

 

Another case of where the new method of the default being we see just the most recent post creating an issue.

[zoned_post_meridiem]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > > > > > @wkuo3 said:

> > > > > We were lucky that our kids still enjoy the outdoors and exercise because we had **broomed** them into the good habits when they were young.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well, that sounds a little sinister ... :smile:

> > > >

> > >

> > > A sweeping generalization? :)

> >

> > The term "grooming" had turned out to have a "sinister" shadow over it, but no different than putting a runaway train onto the track.

> > Kids are like open book with blank pages. Some of my close friends like to have their own "free range". We , on the other hands didn't put all our faith in the education system. Especially when our children told us the assigned school advisor "advised" them to take it easy and enjoy life as a child.

> > Now, we were never the "tiger Mom/Dad". But we believed in put the little one on the learning track so when they are ready to make decision for themselves, they will be ready with all the tools they could use to assist the decision making.

> > One of our kid was questioned by the professor and classmates if "the parents" had suggested and quided them to the path they're on. My kid answered, they were never pressured to do anything they didn't want to do.

> > We just gave them the tools to make smart decision.

> > Frankly, I'm okay if one of our kid turned out to be a journeyman carpenter, as long as it would provide an honest living and have enough financial means to do what they want to do in life. Of course, wife's expectation is a little different than mine.

> > The one single most important thing to teach the kids is, to accept "failure", and knowing life is a marathon, one does not need to be the leader all the time. That will take away a lot of the pressure from the learning process.

> >

>

> Sorry, it went over your head. The previous post had bolded the word "brooming" when the past meant to write "grooming".

>

> Get it? Brooming-sweeping generalization?

>

> Another case of where the new method of the default being we see just the most recent post creating an issue.

 

Yes, meant to just be a light-hearted typo riff on "brooming" the kids. But then the thread took a decidedly less light-hearted turn ...

[Barfolomew]

> @MountainGoat said:

> As noted in one of the comments, a big part of the decline relates to the IRS ruling in the 1990s that country club membership could not be deducted as business expense or employee benefit.

 

Oh wow the government once again trying to squeeze more money out of us at the expense of our fun activities.... for what so they can pi$$ it away. Honey where's the decaf!

[CougarRed]

After 25+ years of membership at a prestigious country club, I resigned about a year ago and joined a ClubCorp gym with golf privileges. Very happy with my decision.

 

At my old club, I had to play at least 12 rounds a month to justify the dues, and rarely averaged more than 2 rounds a month over any 12-month period. Because of the dues, I felt like I was burning money when playing elsewhere at some of the nice public courses. And so the country club course got "old" for me over time. Once they decided to levy about $100K in extra fees and assessments to build a new clubhouse, I exited stage left.

 

I wasn't the only person to leave. Another thing I noticed is that some of the super wealthy members started joining other prestigious clubs where the service level was remarkably higher than my old club. These members had grown weary of paying top dollar and being taken for granted under the guise of a "family club" where the service level was the same as it was 40 years ago.

 

The financial model for the new clubhouse relied on the club being able to attract more members - a 10% increase from 1000 to 1100 stockholding members. It will be interesting to see if they are able to attract enough candidates at all, much less of traditionally-required social standing, to make budget.

 

My Club Corp dues are 1/6th of what I used to pay, and I get 6 rounds of golf around town per month (and more when traveling) where all I pay is cart fee. More golf than I can play. And I don't feel constrained from playing some of the better public courses around. So much greater variety.

 

At long last, I am enthusiastic about golf again...

[shoot4par]

This is gonna be extremely vague and more a personal experience than an objective analysis. The general stereotype of a "country club" has become something that isn't really a positive aspiration among those in our twenties at least by societal norms. I'm 26 and thought of joining a top 6 country club in our area. In past generations it seemed like a positive aspiration. My dad did it, my uncles and aunts did it. (Lets be honest outside of the forums and courses if you say you play golf, you get eye rolls. If you say you are a cc member you get a whole different type of undercurrent. More younger millennials join climbing gyms, play video games like fiends or spend weekends touring breweries than play golf around my area.) (All for a good craft or climb... no judgement.) No one I have ever dated plays with any proficiency, most of my friends don't golf or do so poorly minus former teammates and guys from Junior golf. I have some good investments (low costs for young executives & that make it possible) and have been looking at real estate which is also a deterrent to joining a club. I don't know if my realistic usage of the facilities would justify my costs. It's just a tough sell for younger millennials. I don't need a place to eat a expensive meal when I live in a metro with so many diverse, quality restaurants. I cook regularly and try not to eat out. If I do eat out I prefer unique food not a relatively stock menu. Where I live, I can only play golf seven months a year and wouldn't step foot in a club in the winter months. The environment doesn't offer a good opportunity to network with many people from my age group. Most BODs are composed of people from a completely different generation and are in tuned with different interests and a different subculture. I'm gonna go there to play golf, beat balls, practice and lay by the pool. I have a gym in my basement and don't play tennis. P.S. to all you dads and grandpa's happy Father's Day.

[CougarRed]

> @shoot4par said:

> The general stereotype of a "country club" has become something that isn't really a positive aspiration among those in our twenties at least by societal norms. I'm 26 and thought of joining a top 6 country club in our area. In past generations it seemed like a positive aspiration. My dad did it, my uncles and aunts did it. (Lets be honest outside of the forums and courses if you say you play golf, you get eye rolls. If you say you are a cc member you get a whole different type of undercurrent.)

 

The internet has changed things as well. Back before 2000, relationships were all-important for a lot of businesses. Who you knew was key, and country club memberships were therefore quite valuable. Now, people can research anything online and choose service providers with proven track records.

[BearQ]

> @third-times-a-charm said:

> > @GolfChannel said:

> > 38 year old young professional with an established home and family. I can afford to join a club, but why would I when I live in an area where the best courses are public and it’s far cheaper to pay per 18 holes versus some crazy monthly or annual fee not worth what you get out of it (thanks GolfNow and the like).

> >

> > I think the common sense answer for the decline in club membership is our culture has largely moved beyond “clubs” and exclusion, but the clubs haven’t evolved with the change.

> >

> > If we can save the courses and kill the clubs I am all for their demise. I have never understood “Country Club” culture. I would be wary of joining anything where there are requirements to membership whether financial or demographic in nature. It just seems like an old world mindset for close mindedness. Open the courses, charge whatever you want per round to attract the clientele you want while still maintaining the course standard.

>

> I live in the same area as you, and I am a member at one of the 5 privates in our area. My sentiment is the opposite - and I'm 5 years younger than you.

>

> IMO your post shows how little you know about the private clubs in the area where you live. None of them have 'country club' attitudes except MAYBE 1 or 2 of them. The others are very accessible (have aspiring amateur memberships, etc) and/or are VERY golf focused clubs (Bay Hill/Orange Tree, as you mentioned in a subsequent post even) that have awesome family-friendly events and also do club-league course-sharing for ladies groups/mens groups/etc as an example of how not 'country clubbish' they are.

>

> Playing golf in orlando in the summer is great and all for $25-40 per round, but the course conditions vary wildly and you are still stuck with 4-5 hour rounds. Don't even mention when the weather cools down in Orlando - even the goat tracks are priced at $60+ per round and 5-6 hour rounds are normal.

>

> YMMV I guess.

 

 

 

[RickK]

Well, I also remember back in the 1970s when we were going to be out of oil/gas by the year 2000. That didn't happen either.

I have been a member of several country clubs since I was in my 20s because (1) I could afford it and (2) enjoyed the lifestyle as well as (3) great golf course I could play in a reasonable amount of time. I do know of a number of country clubs who have totally gone out of business or had to go public. What I would advise anyone who is considering joining a club to do is vette the club. How viable is their business model. Do they have a guaranteed revenue stream not totally based upon do their members simply want to be a member there. The upper end (high dollar) clubs will probably be successful for a long long time to come. I am not willing to pay their initiation fee to join. The club I belong to now...has the perfect scenario for being successful. (1) We are in a gated community. (2) in order to own a lot or a home in the community, you must pay at a minimum the social membership initiation fee and monthly dues. You can upgrade to different membership levels but you cannot drop completely out of the club, not pay dues and still live here. A "real" guaranteed revenue stream. It is all spelled out for you when you are buying a lot either by the developer (who owns the country club) or the realtor when you are buying a lot other than from the developer or buying a home that is already built. You will have to pay the fee and dues. It is in the contract. Our club is well maintained and has continual upgrades going on.

Clubs that have to rely on the general public to join them really have to do something that makes people want to belong there and get benefit from being a member. Otherwise...yes they will suffer and may well die.

[zoned_post_meridiem]

> @shoot4par said:

> I don't need a place to eat a expensive meal when I live in a metro with so many diverse, quality restaurants. I cook regularly and try not to eat out. If I do eat out I prefer unique food not a relatively stock menu. Where I live, I can only play golf seven months a year and wouldn't step foot in a club in the winter months. The environment doesn't offer a good opportunity to network with many people from my age group. Most BODs are composed of people from a completely different generation and are in tuned with different interests and a different subculture. I'm gonna go there to play golf, beat balls, practice and lay by the pool. I have a gym in my basement and don't play tennis. P.S. to all you dads and grandpa's happy Father's Day.

 

I'm millenial-adjacent, but this rings true. Our season is at best 6.5 months long, and while the golf side of our local clubs is great, I see very little value in what they offer off-season. If they offered a half-season membership, or decent sim bays/indoor putting included in membership during the winter, I'd happily give them my money. I suspect many of us in the 30-50 age brackets who like golf but don't need the community side feel the same.

 

[MelloYello]

> @shoot4par said:

> More younger millennials join climbing gyms, play video games like fiends or spend weekends touring breweries than play golf around my area.) (All for a good craft or climb... no judgement.)

>

> I don't need a place to eat a expensive meal when I live in a metro with so many diverse, quality restaurants. I cook regularly and try not to eat out. If I do eat out I prefer unique food not a relatively stock menu. Where I live, I can only play golf seven months a year and wouldn't step foot in a club in the winter months.

 

I'm 33yo and both statements ring true for me as well.

 

My buddies all work out at local gyms. Video games are universally popular with virtually everyone 35-and-under. Everyone plays something to some degree. And yeah, food and drink is about socializing which is best done at some hip bar, brewery or eatery downtown. Eating at some exclusive country club grille is actually rather unthinkable for a millennial.

 

TBH, I even struggle with the separation between my "social friends" and "playing partners" where there is unfortunately very little overlap. Most of my regular playing partners are work colleagues I've established a golfing-relationship with but whom I don't actually go out with that much socially. On the other hand, I have a slew of friends who I will go out with, but virtually none of them really care about golf at all.

 

I still have moments where I wonder how I ever got involved with golf in the first place!

 

> @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> If they offered a...decent sim bays/indoor putting included in membership during the winter, I'd happily give them my money. I suspect many of us in the 30-50 age brackets who like golf but don't need the community side feel the same.

 

I think we all feel the same, haha.

 

Now, I can tell you that half-year memberships aren't ever happening. Nobody is going to want to pay full-price in January unless they are forced to so the moment a club offered that they'd literally lose half their revenue.

 

But I don't see why a progressive club couldn't build a few simulators. That would attract a lot of attention from folks who wanted to log some time. Sims are already booming in South Korea.

 

 

[FlyingLaw1]

Great topic and Convo!

 

I'm really torn on this one... I'm a young professional in my second full year of working and I play as much golf as I can... In generations past that would probably place me in the "join a club" demographic. Money aside (more on that in a minute), I enjoy playing different courses a lot and I'm lucky to have a lot of courses within an hour (a lot within 20-30 minutes) to play at. Also none of my good golf buddies are members anywhere and most of the membership at the clubs nearby are either older individuals or families.... I also have absolutely NO need for a pool or tennis courts. Nor do I want a club with a restaurant--every club near where I live has all of the above. I would like to have a place to keep my clubs and have unlimited practice balls (that don't suck) but that's not a huge deal to me.

 

Now for the money... Where I live (well at least for the next couple of months) the only two courses I'd really want to join are pretty dang expensive. Even the associate/junior memberships are more than I'm spending on golf per month. I--like many of those in my age bracket--have a pretty hefty student loan payment each month and there are other things my "extra" funds need to be going toward than a club membership. Right now I'm pretty luck as I can walk 18 on 2 of my local munies for about $15. I do that a couple days a week and then we usually play somewhere nicer on a weekend or two a month ( I live not far from Branson, MO--there's some great courses down there). Now If I move to a larger city (which I am) and the public courses start being $70+ a round... I may have to do some more thinking, but until then... Highly unlikely I'll be joining a club.

[Golfnuck]

> @shoot4par said:

> This is gonna be extremely vague and more a personal experience than an objective analysis. The general stereotype of a "country club" has become something that isn't really a positive aspiration among those in our twenties at least by societal norms. I'm 26 and thought of joining a top 6 country club in our area. In past generations it seemed like a positive aspiration. My dad did it, my uncles and aunts did it. (Lets be honest outside of the forums and courses if you say you play golf, you get eye rolls. If you say you are a cc member you get a whole different type of undercurrent. More younger millennials join climbing gyms, play video games like fiends or spend weekends touring breweries than play golf around my area.) (All for a good craft or climb... no judgement.) No one I have ever dated plays with any proficiency, most of my friends don't golf or do so poorly minus former teammates and guys from Junior golf. I have some good investments (low costs for young executives & that make it possible) and have been looking at real estate which is also a deterrent to joining a club. I don't know if my realistic usage of the facilities would justify my costs. It's just a tough sell for younger millennials. I don't need a place to eat a expensive meal when I live in a metro with so many diverse, quality restaurants. I cook regularly and try not to eat out. If I do eat out I prefer unique food not a relatively stock menu. Where I live, I can only play golf seven months a year and wouldn't step foot in a club in the winter months. The environment doesn't offer a good opportunity to network with many people from my age group. Most BODs are composed of people from a completely different generation and are in tuned with different interests and a different subculture. I'm gonna go there to play golf, beat balls, practice and lay by the pool. I have a gym in my basement and don't play tennis. P.S. to all you dads and grandpa's happy Father's Day.

 

When I was 26 joining a country club was the farther thing from my mind in fact I didn't golf. I remember when I just turned 30 I started to get into management at my work and golfing with customers was a requirement.

 

Still ingrained in my head is the first time I was invited to golf with my branch manager at his club which was one of the top clubs in the city. I was so bad it should have been a job termination moment. There is an indoor tennis building about 150 yd to the far left of the tee box. The bang from me hitting the side of the building ...........

 

I was "advised" by my branch manager that I needed to become somewhat proficient (or at least not embarrass the firm) if I wanted advance in the company. I diligently took lessons at the city owned golf course and played maybe once a month but back in those days the golf courses were all packed on the weekends. Golf just seemed slow compared to skiing or tennis.

 

I did not even consider joining a golf club as I did not have any money to do so. Back then in my 20's no-one in my group of friends were members in a county club and certainly we viewed country clubs as the place of stuff old assh%les who thought they were better than everyone else.

 

So I don't think your generation is the first to view country clubs with disdain.

 

Well flash forward 30 years and I am one of those stuffy assh%les who are members in a country club.

 

Is the attitude of your generation really that difference from my generation at the same age????????

 

 

 

[ImagineThat]

The elite country clubs and golf clubs in the Dallas area have a long waiting period (~2+ years) for new membership with the best-of-the best having initiation fees approaching $200,000 and monthly dues as high as $1,566.

 

 

 

 

 

[burnsniper]

Clubs that change with the time will survive and those that don’t won’t. Here is a good article addressing this very issue:

 

https://www.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/3/28/18284226/golf-course-country-club-social-wing-collective

 

Ultimately a club has to provide a value/meet a desire of people in order to survive. I personally joined my club for the ability to play a top knotch golf course in a short amount. I regularly play 30-54 holes per week in the summer in less than 6 hours total for the 54 - the majority of which are walked. With a young family, you can’t put a price tag on this ability. Additionally, the club takes care of my daughter while I play!

 

Ironically, two (out of three) of my sponsors at the club don’t even play golf and are only really in the club for the social reasons! They also have young families and do get heavy use out of the children’s camps, swim team, and other programs which actually cost extra.

[Roody]

> @burnsniper said:

> Clubs that change with the time will survive and those that don’t won’t. Here is a good article addressing this very issue:

>

> https://www.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/3/28/18284226/golf-course-country-club-social-wing-collective

>

 

I guess count me in the "male, pale, and stale" crowd. I took one look at some of the renovations they show in the article, and no thanks. Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but I don't want my club to look like a hipster coffee shop.

 

 

[smashdn]

I didn't join the place to change it. I joined the place because I liked what was going on there. If a place has plenty of members and they are replacing those that leave (for whatever reason) then what they are doing is working. If that is keeping the women separate from the men and the children seen but not heard and the "help" at arm's length so be it. That is that place's culture. You either want in that or not.

 

In a big enough town/city you may have choices. I know which club is the old money - take-off-your-hat, jacket in the dining room club. Which club in town is the young families pool club that "oh by-the-way we have a golf course" club and which is the new money burning a hole in my pocket I need to flaunt it club.

 

Take a few hours at one if you looking to join and get the vibe of the place. It will be pretty apparent what you are getting into if you spend some time in the grill or clubhouse.

[MelloYello]

I think that if I was "rich" and had $100k or more to buy in I'd want it to feel exclusionary. That's kind of the whole point. At that level, I'd be much more interested in finding a place that kept the rest of the world out while I got to live my life in private. I'd want an exquisite clubhouse, a top-shelf staff and all the rest. I'd be expecting everything to be high-class.

 

As others have pointed out, those kinds of clubs will _never_ have a problem finding clientele. There will always be millionaires looking for exclusivity and high class. That's just a given. If we all had that money, we'd do the same thing.

 

The challenge facing the more affordable clubs is quite different. They have to try and attract people who are on a budget and that's problematic. When you do that you have to chase the customers and switch up what you do.

 

We have to keep in mind that the country clubs most of us play at are "middle-class" versions of something the rich invented. Being middle class and trying to live the high life is hard.

 

 

[burnsniper]

> @Roody said:

> > @burnsniper said:

> > Clubs that change with the time will survive and those that don’t won’t. Here is a good article addressing this very issue:

> >

> > https://www.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/3/28/18284226/golf-course-country-club-social-wing-collective

> >

>

> I guess count me in the "male, pale, and stale" crowd. I took one look at some of the renovations they show in the article, and no thanks. Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but I don't want my club to look like a hipster coffee shop.

>

>

I think what’s important with the article is that things like a kids center and programming and “new sports” like paddle and pickle ball are key to attracting changing demographics. As is the reduction in dress code requirements for dining, etc.

 

[buckeyefl]

> @Roody said:

> > @burnsniper said:

> > Clubs that change with the time will survive and those that don’t won’t. Here is a good article addressing this very issue:

> >

> > https://www.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/3/28/18284226/golf-course-country-club-social-wing-collective

> >

>

> I guess count me in the "male, pale, and stale" crowd. I took one look at some of the renovations they show in the article, and no thanks. Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but I don't want my club to look like a hipster coffee shop.

>

>

 

You mean you don't need an “urban basecamp for the mind, body, and soul.”

[shoot4par]

> @Golfnuck said:

>

> When I was 26 joining a country club was the farther thing from my mind in fact I didn't golf. I remember when I just turned 30 I started to get into management at my work and golfing with customers was a requirement.

>

> Still ingrained in my head is the first time I was invited to golf with my branch manager at his club which was one of the top clubs in the city. I was so bad it should have been a job termination moment. There is an indoor tennis building about 150 yd to the far left of the tee box. The bang from me hitting the side of the building ...........

>

> I was "advised" by my branch manager that I needed to become somewhat proficient (or at least not embarrass the firm) if I wanted advance in the company. I diligently took lessons at the city owned golf course and played maybe once a month but back in those days the golf courses were all packed on the weekends. Golf just seemed slow compared to skiing or tennis.

>

> I did not even consider joining a golf club as I did not have any money to do so. Back then in my 20's no-one in my group of friends were members in a county club and certainly we viewed country clubs as the place of stuff old assh%les who thought they were better than everyone else.

>

> So I don't think your generation is the first to view country clubs with disdain.

>

> Well flash forward 30 years and I am one of those stuffy assh%les who are members in a country club.

>

> Is the attitude of your generation really that difference from my generation at the same age????????

>

>

>

You might have got me there. Golf and the C.C. scene seems MORE frowned upon. It exudes privilege... At least thats the reaction I see from my generation. Maybe I just hang out with the wrong people. It's not like haha what a******s ... its like this passive disdain that seems so unhealthy. Not that I give that much of a d*** what people think but if I was to use my observations to infer some sort of value judgement on peoples reactions this is what I'd conclude.

[Hack Daddy]

> @Roody said:

> > @burnsniper said:

> > Clubs that change with the time will survive and those that don’t won’t. Here is a good article addressing this very issue:

> >

> > https://www.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/3/28/18284226/golf-course-country-club-social-wing-collective

> >

>

> I guess count me in the "male, pale, and stale" crowd. I took one look at some of the renovations they show in the article, and no thanks. Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but I don't want my club to look like a hipster coffee shop.

>

>

 

Fair enough, but on the other end, as a young Exec. - I don't want my club looking like the Waldorf Astoria.

 

The problem is, finding a happy medium.

[Roody]

> @"Hack Daddy" said:

> Fair enough, but on the other end, as a young Exec. - I don't want my club looking like the Waldorf Astoria.

>

> The problem is, finding a happy medium.

 

Agreed, we can't go to one extreme end or the other just to please one demographic. We need the younger generation as they are the future, but we shouldn't do it at the cost of losing the older generation either.

 

I'm Gen-X. We hate the millennials and the boomers equally. LOL

[smashdn]

What the heck happened to Gen Y? We got absorbed by the dang millenials some how.

[Ferguson]

> @smashdn said:

> What the heck happened to Gen Y? We got absorbed by the dang millenials some how.

 

You didn't drink enough diet coke, apparently.

[smashdn]

I did the dew.