The decline of the country club

[mocokid]

Rock Spring GC is now a town owned muni in NJ. Designed by Charles Banks, it "merged" several years ago with Montclair GC (very fine old line club, D Ross/Banks) due to financial problems. Montclair sold it to town of W Orange last year, after experiencing losses for several years. Hopefully W Orange can keep it going, it is a very good course.

[ImagineThat]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @ImagineThat said:

> > The offer would only be a polite suggestion of possible acceptance. I don't understand why such an offer would cause the type of resentment or passion you think with 100% certainty would happen. I think you may have misunderstood the situation...

>

> You've seen Caddyshack, yes?

>

> It's not healthy to have guys who believe that throwing money around absolves themselves of playing by the rules, and many clubs try to avoid these guys if they can.

 

The question was based on a hypothetical situation anyway, so...

[Pepperturbo]

> @ImagineThat said:

> Here's an interesting question, which likely only happens now-and-again with some of the more elite clubs...

>

> What do you think an elite country club with a 2 year wait list time and a ~$100k initiation fee should do if they are offered an 'extra' $100k cash upfront by an approved 'member-in waiting' to reduce the wait time down to 3 months or less? Should the country club find a way to quietly work around their stated policy, or should the country club stick firmly to their policy that whoever has waited the longest becomes the newest member and forgo the extra money - whether the money is actually needed, or not?

>

> Also, should such a decision be elevated to the club's Board for them to decide? Or, should the decision be made at a lower level by someone at the membership administration level?

 

If I was a member or in leadership and became aware of membership personnel pulling a shenanigan like that, I'd want to know who authorized that decision. Essentially, it's a bribe and goes around written membership rules in the clubs Charter. Club needing the money has no bearing on personnel or member behavior. A decision like that means he/she failed at their fiduciary duty to the club and its charter. An employee should be fired and the member/person authorizing that tactic should be immediately removed from leadership with consequences. Yes, the BOD should be informed. Depending on the wording in the Charter, it could also put the club in a liability position with potential new members on the waiting list.

[QMany]

I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

 

* We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

* I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

* Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

[Shades234]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @ImagineThat said:

> > Here's an interesting question, which likely only happens now-and-again with some of the more elite clubs...

> >

> > What do you think an elite country club with a 2 year wait list time and a ~$100k initiation fee should do if they are offered an 'extra' $100k cash upfront by an approved 'member-in waiting' to reduce the wait time down to 3 months or less? Should the country club find a way to quietly work around their stated policy, or should the country club stick firmly to their policy that whoever has waited the longest becomes the newest member and forgo the extra money - whether the money is actually needed, or not?

> >

> > Also, should such a decision be elevated to the club's Board for them to decide? Or, should the decision be made at a lower level by someone at the membership administration level?

>

> If I was a member or in leadership and became aware of membership personnel pulling a shenanigan like that, I'd want to know who authorized that decision. Essentially, it's a bribe and goes around written membership rules in the clubs Charter. Club needing the money has no bearing on personnel or member behavior. A decision like that means he/she failed at their fiduciary duty to the club and its charter. An employee should be fired and the member/person authorizing that tactic should be immediately removed from leadership with consequences. Yes, the BOD should be informed. Depending on the wording in the Charter, it could also put the club in a liability position with potential new members on the waiting list.

 

Absolutely. The member in waiting should also be told to pound sand and seek membership elsewhere. Members that think they can buy their way around the rules aren't worth the hassle.

[ImagineThat]

In response to the hypothetical question about casually asking if doubling the initiation fee would be helpful in reducing the wait time, I found this:

 

 

## Q: So joining a club these days can be as easy as writing a check?

## In some cases -- especially at the more desperate clubs -- if you can pay a few months' worth of dues upfront, there's a good chance you can get in right away.

##

##

## Q: How hard is it to become a member of one of the top clubs in the country?

## It depends on the club. Some attract very good players. Win the U.S. Mid-Amateur, and you've increased your chances dramatically. Other top clubs reward civic leadership or golf contributions. The key is to know members, and have them know you.

##

 

Reference: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/privateclubs_avery

 

So, from the Golf Digest article (link above) it certainly appears that under certain circumstances a member-in-waiting could be granted membership 'sooner' (_right away_) by increasing the amount of money he is willing to pay upfront. Unlike what I'm hearing from a few people here there certainly does not appear to be a problem in casually and politely asking...nor any reason for the member-in-waiting to be concerned about being rejected for membership for merely asking.

 

Also not discussed under this hypothetical sub-topic is; someone that is extremely well-known and would be considered beneficial as a member; such as a Top 25 PGA tour player, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Jordan, etc. Is there any club that is going to turn down (reject) such people from immediate membership? Is any club going to reject such people if they politely offer to pay double the initiation fee? I rather doubt it!

 

 

[duffer987]

> @ImagineThat said:

> In response to the hypothetical question about casually asking if doubling the initiation fee would be helpful in reducing the wait time, I found this:

>

>

> ## Q: So joining a club these days can be as easy as writing a check?

> ## In some cases -- especially at the more desperate clubs -- if you can pay a few months' worth of dues upfront, there's a good chance you can get in right away.

> ##

> ##

> ## Q: How hard is it to become a member of one of the top clubs in the country?

> ## It depends on the club. Some attract very good players. Win the U.S. Mid-Amateur, and you've increased your chances dramatically. Other top clubs reward civic leadership or golf contributions. The key is to know members, and have them know you.

> ##

>

> Reference: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/privateclubs_avery

>

> So, from the Golf Digest article (link above) it certainly appears that under certain circumstances a member-in-waiting could be granted membership 'sooner' (_right away_) by increasing the amount of money he is willing to pay upfront. Unlike what I'm hearing from a few people here there certainly does not appear to be a problem in casually and politely asking...nor any reason for the member-in-waiting to be concerned about being rejected for membership for merely asking.

>

> Also not discussed under this hypothetical sub-topic is; someone that is extremely well-known and would be considered beneficial as a member; such as a Top 25 PGA tour player, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Jordan, etc. Is there any club that is going to turn down (reject) such people from immediate membership? Is any club going to reject such people if they politely offer to pay double the initiation fee? I rather doubt it!

>

>

 

$100k buy in with an existing waiting list is not remotely close to Podunk GC trying to keep the lights on.

More clubs would rather not have some 'celeb'. These aren't nightclubs and restaurants, they're private golf clubs. I guess maybe you watch a lot of Entourage and Ballers and think that's how the world works?

 

Your post does absolutely nothing to validate your previous point on it's own. Let alone counter any of the responses from people who have actual experience in this... Who all say you are wrong.

[cxx]

> @ImagineThat said:

> In response to the hypothetical question about casually asking if doubling the initiation fee would be helpful in reducing the wait time, I found this:

>

>

 

 

> Also not discussed under this hypothetical sub-topic is; someone that is extremely well-known and would be considered beneficial as a member; such as a Top 25 PGA tour player, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Jordan, etc. Is there any club that is going to turn down (reject) such people from immediate membership? Is any club going to reject such people if they politely offer to pay double the initiation fee? I rather doubt it!

>

>

I can imagine that there are plenty of clubs that wouldn't want the hassle of having those guys as members. Those guys wouldn't want to join a club that needed their money anyway. I have to side with Pepper. While it works when getting your car from the valet, slipping the membership director a couple hundred grand would get everyone in trouble.

Now I can see joe blow who wants to join the local club getting a deal on the initiation. But anyone could get that.

 

[ImagineThat]

Recognize any of these names? They don't become a member in some of these elite clubs unless you are one of 'those guys'! All of those clubs have their own unique ways and specialized policies/rules. Preston Trails is a men's only club - where someone like Lanny Wadkins can't even have dinner with his wife.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not endorsing or suggesting any particular club policy/rules on membership, etc. It's just an interesting topic that started with a hypothetical question...

 

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-ceo/2014/november/the-most-exclusive-private-dallas-clubs/

[BNGL]

> @ImagineThat said:

> > @raynorfan1 said:

> > > @ImagineThat said:

> > > The offer would only be a polite suggestion of possible acceptance. I don't understand why such an offer would cause the type of resentment or passion you think with 100% certainty would happen. I think you may have misunderstood the situation...

> >

> > You've seen Caddyshack, yes?

> >

> > It's not healthy to have guys who believe that throwing money around absolves themselves of playing by the rules, and many clubs try to avoid these guys if they can.

>

> The question was based on a hypothetical situation anyway, so...

 

But I do think he’s giving you an accurate answer. > @ImagineThat said:

> In response to the hypothetical question about casually asking if doubling the initiation fee would be helpful in reducing the wait time, I found this:

>

>

> ## Q: So joining a club these days can be as easy as writing a check?

> ## In some cases -- especially at the more desperate clubs -- if you can pay a few months' worth of dues upfront, there's a good chance you can get in right away.

> ##

> ##

> ## Q: How hard is it to become a member of one of the top clubs in the country?

> ## It depends on the club. Some attract very good players. Win the U.S. Mid-Amateur, and you've increased your chances dramatically. Other top clubs reward civic leadership or golf contributions. The key is to know members, and have them know you.

> ##

>

> Reference: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/privateclubs_avery

>

> So, from the Golf Digest article (link above) it certainly appears that under certain circumstances a member-in-waiting could be granted membership 'sooner' (_right away_) by increasing the amount of money he is willing to pay upfront. Unlike what I'm hearing from a few people here there certainly does not appear to be a problem in casually and politely asking...nor any reason for the member-in-waiting to be concerned about being rejected for membership for merely asking.

>

> Also not discussed under this hypothetical sub-topic is; someone that is extremely well-known and would be considered beneficial as a member; such as a Top 25 PGA tour player, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Jordan, etc. Is there any club that is going to turn down (reject) such people from immediate membership? Is any club going to reject such people if they politely offer to pay double the initiation fee? I rather doubt it!

>

>

 

You do realize that Mr. Nicklaus was once turned away at Seminole Golf Club right? The guy only won 18 majors in his career and lives 5 minutes down the road in Lost Tree.

 

Your hypothetical contention of a club with 100k initiation and a waiting list isn’t a struggling club though...I understand what a hypothetical is but working at these clubs I can not comprehend it to be quite honest...it just doesn’t work. The Bear’s Club in Jupiter charges every member tour pro or not, even Jordan pays the initiation and dues. One of the greatest things I have ever heard from Mr. Nicklaus was that, “membership is a privilege not a right.” He and Mr. Wesselman (spelling?) the GM run a tight ship and it works.

 

Medalist waives the initiation for tour professionals but they still pay dues annually.

Both clubs review membership status annually as well of every member.

 

I guess to play along with the hypothetical though perhaps we would be more willing and open to perspective members willing to pay more for entry, but understand the clubs that are charging 100k aren’t clubs...their institutions bigger than any individual. It’s more than money too, because clubs charging that aren’t struggling and can select the right individual who will contribute to the clubs character, while positively representing it.

 

So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for, but If you have an extra 100k laying around go try it for yourself.

 

I’ll leave it with this quote from Mr. Nicklaus, “membership is a privilege, not a right.”

 

 

[ImagineThat]

> @BNGL said:

 

> So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

 

>

 

Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

 

 

[BNGL]

> @ImagineThat said:

> > @BNGL said:

>

> > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

>

> >

>

> Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

>

>

Then why solicit answers?

 

[duffer987]

> @BNGL said:

> > @ImagineThat said:

> > > @BNGL said:

> >

> > > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

> >

> > >

> >

> > Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

> >

> >

> Then why solicit answers?

>

 

And double down on it with shoddy reasoning and made up 'celeb' examples.

[BNGL]

> @ImagineThat said:

> > @BNGL said:

>

> > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

>

> >

>

> Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

>

>

 

 

Or research for answers contrary to what I know about clubs I have worked or those near me? And contrary to what raynorfan has given? Unless by asking a question then looking up articles and finding an answer to your own question, you’re trying to drive conversation with multiple accounts and create division. If that’s the case, as unrealistic as it maybe one could draw that conclusion, make sure to logout of one account before commenting about the other.

[ImagineThat]

> @BNGL said:

> > @ImagineThat said:

> > > @BNGL said:

> >

> > > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

> >

> > >

> >

> > Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

> >

> >

>

>

> Or research for answers contrary to what I know about clubs I have worked or those near me? And contrary to what raynorfan has given? Unless by asking a question then looking up articles and finding an answer to your own question, **you’re trying to drive conversation with multiple accounts and create division**. If that’s the case, as unrealistic as it maybe one could draw that conclusion, make sure to logout of one account before commenting about the other.

 

Wow! What an accusation. I only have one account...

 

 

[BNGL]

> @ImagineThat said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @ImagineThat said:

> > > > @BNGL said:

> > >

> > > > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Or research for answers contrary to what I know about clubs I have worked or those near me? And contrary to what raynorfan has given? Unless by asking a question then looking up articles and finding an answer to your own question, **you’re trying to drive conversation with multiple accounts and create division**. If that’s the case, as unrealistic as it maybe one could draw that conclusion, make sure to logout of one account before commenting about the other.

>

> Wow! What an accusation. I only have one account...

>

>

 

I was just imagining then

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Shades234 said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @ImagineThat said:

> > > Here's an interesting question, which likely only happens now-and-again with some of the more elite clubs...

> > >

> > > What do you think an elite country club with a 2 year wait list time and a ~$100k initiation fee should do if they are offered an 'extra' $100k cash upfront by an approved 'member-in waiting' to reduce the wait time down to 3 months or less? Should the country club find a way to quietly work around their stated policy, or should the country club stick firmly to their policy that whoever has waited the longest becomes the newest member and forgo the extra money - whether the money is actually needed, or not?

> > >

> > > Also, should such a decision be elevated to the club's Board for them to decide? Or, should the decision be made at a lower level by someone at the membership administration level?

> >

> > If I was a member or in leadership and became aware of membership personnel pulling a shenanigan like that, I'd want to know who authorized that decision. Essentially, it's a bribe and goes around written membership rules in the clubs Charter. Club needing the money has no bearing on personnel or member behavior. A decision like that means he/she failed at their fiduciary duty to the club and its charter. An employee should be fired and the member/person authorizing that tactic should be immediately removed from leadership with consequences. Yes, the BOD should be informed. Depending on the wording in the Charter, it could also put the club in a liability position with potential new members on the waiting list.

>

> Absolutely. The member in waiting should also be told to pound sand and seek membership elsewhere. Members that think they can buy their way around the rules aren't worth the hassle.

This practice is only acceptable when applying to college.

[raynorfan1]

The original question was specifically with respect to an "elite" club with a 2 year waiting list. In those circumstances, I believe that the hypothetical "bonus" initiation fee proposal would be detrimental to an applicant.

 

Citing Golf Digest's view on what "desperate" clubs will do is not that relevant to the original question. I have a friend who joked (during the recession) that his club's most important "reference letter" had become something written on a piece of paper about five inches wide, three inches tall, signed in the bottom right corner.

 

There are plenty of examples over time of celebrities and rich people not getting into clubs. Our current President is probably the best example - I think there are a whole bunch of met section clubs that wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole (but it will be interesting to see if that changes post Presidency).

 

In any case, I think it is possible to receive special treatment in the admissions process if you have something that the club wants or needs - like an abutting piece of property that the club needs

[Pepperturbo]

> @ImagineThat said:

> In response to the hypothetical question about casually asking if doubling the initiation fee would be helpful in reducing the wait time, I found this:

>

>

> ## Q: So joining a club these days can be as easy as writing a check?

> ## In some cases -- especially at the more desperate clubs -- if you can pay a few months' worth of dues upfront, there's a good chance you can get in right away.

> ##

> ##

> ## Q: How hard is it to become a member of one of the top clubs in the country?

> ## It depends on the club. Some attract very good players. Win the U.S. Mid-Amateur, and you've increased your chances dramatically. Other top clubs reward civic leadership or golf contributions. The key is to know members, and have them know you.

> ##

>

> Reference: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/privateclubs_avery

>

> So, from the Golf Digest article (link above) it certainly appears that under certain circumstances a member-in-waiting could be granted membership 'sooner' (_right away_) by increasing the amount of money he is willing to pay upfront. Unlike what I'm hearing from a few people here there certainly does not appear to be a problem in casually and politely asking...nor any reason for the member-in-waiting to be concerned about being rejected for membership for merely asking.

>

> Also not discussed under this hypothetical sub-topic is; someone that is extremely well-known and would be considered beneficial as a member; such as a Top 25 PGA tour player, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Michael Jordan, etc. Is there any club that is going to turn down (reject) such people from immediate membership? Is any club going to reject such people if they politely offer to pay double the initiation fee? I rather doubt it!

>

>

Very poor arguments. Prepared to pay a few months up front is a joke as it's not going to change the destiny of a failing club. Furthermore, Golf Digest is NOT what any of the BOD men I have served with would use as an honorable mention reference point for how club leadership behaves. As another person said above, at good private clubs Hollywood and music celebrities are not desirable members. Mainly because they tend to be entitled, maybe spoiled adult children needing special attention, and require a membership that will tolerate them.

 

Let me reiterate, a "GOOD" private club lives and dies by it's Charter of rules and the leadership that manages/owns the club. Not unlike the ROG and good golfers. If a touring Pro or named Amateur wants to join a private club he's often looked at differently from other celebrities. His/her golf accomplishments bring direct club value for attracting new members. Also, their membership category typically isn't the same as the rest of the membership. Last, you're wrongly assuming, those names you mention make people tingle and all private clubs would jump at accepting them. Here in SOCA, Riveria and MoutainGate are known for celebrity membership and the culture is OK with the associated publicity, LA Country Club is NOT and adamant about it.

 

[Hilltopper413]

> @QMany said:

> I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

>

> * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

 

As has been stated here many times a cost-benefit analysis rarely works out for country clubs. You can always play golf cheaper, find other pools, and eat at other locations. If that’s your mindset country club life may not be for you and your family, and that is ok. For others the intrinsic rewards, feeling of community, and a host of other reasons are plenty to warrant “paying more” for the experience, and that is ok too.

[golfguru80]

It's sad the current state, really sucks for the millennial generation...So true that its harder to buy property. Definitely feel like I have less buying power.

[Enduro59]

> @golfguru80 said:

> It's sad the current state, really sucks for the millennial generation...So true that its harder to buy property. Definitely feel like I have less buying power.

 

This should get good. Real good!

[elwhippy]

As a Brit who plays a quality parkland course for £60 a month (includes lockers, county and national union levies and a small charge for DD) I am truly shocked at how much Golf costs in the USA. I am far from poor but the numbers some Americans talk makes most of our elite courses seem like munis. Friend used to work in New York, for a major bank and was never once invited to play any of the elite courses despite his colleagues being members...simply not the right type of person....only earned $250k a year. That is snobbery in its finest form. The even sadder point is our elite tracks put up the stars and stripes for US visitors and price British enthusiasts out of playing. but we cannot get through the gate of the majority of US top 100 courses no matter who you are or where you play.

[Petethreeput]

@elwhippy

It is a shame, and I agree wholeheartedly. Here we talk about growing the game bc our own practices actually hold it back. Golf is, in my opinion, one of the best and most challenging games on the planet. For those who love it, many would love the challenge or the experience of walking Augusta, Oakmont, or Cypress, but it will never happen.

My most vivid memories on golf courses oftentimes revolve around TOC, Royal Troon, Prestwick, and Carnoustie simply because of the history and aura of those elite courses.

[ryanarneson]

> @elwhippy said:

> As a Brit who plays a quality parkland course for £60 a month (includes lockers, county and national union levies and a small charge for DD) I am truly shocked at how much Golf costs in the USA. I am far from poor but the numbers some Americans talk makes most of our elite courses seem like munis. Friend used to work in New York, for a major bank and was never once invited to play any of the elite courses despite his colleagues being members...simply not the right type of person....only earned $250k a year. That is snobbery in its finest form. The even sadder point is our elite tracks put up the stars and stripes for US visitors and price British enthusiasts out of playing. but we cannot get through the gate of the majority of US top 100 courses no matter who you are or where you play.

 

The vast majority of Golf in the US doesn't cost as much as is bandied about here. This site, and other forums focus heavily solely on the NameBrand destinations. And yes, the notorious private country clubs charge an arm and a leg, because they can. None of that reflects the entirety of golf in the US.

 

Lose the focus on "Top 100", whatever that means. That's just Bag Tag Barry bragging rights. That still leaves roughly 15,000 courses in the US. 11,000 of those are fully public.

[duffer987]

> @elwhippy said:

> As a Brit who plays a quality parkland course for £60 a month (includes lockers, county and national union levies and a small charge for DD) I am truly shocked at how much Golf costs in the USA. I am far from poor but the numbers some Americans talk makes most of our elite courses seem like munis. Friend used to work in New York, for a major bank and was never once invited to play any of the elite courses despite his colleagues being members...simply not the right type of person....only earned $250k a year. That is snobbery in its finest form. The even sadder point is our elite tracks put up the stars and stripes for US visitors and price British enthusiasts out of playing. but we cannot get through the gate of the majority of US top 100 courses no matter who you are or where you play.

 

I thought this was snobbery at it's best?

 

> @elwhippy said:

> I see two kinds of snob.

>

>

>

> Member 1. Full set of custom fit latest model, multiple pairs of shoes, Boss clothes, Galvin waterproofs, Sun Mountain bag, new ball every time. Laughs at anyone who has less than pristine clubs even if they kick his a** by 10 shots.

>

>

>

> Member 2. Found at elitist clubs like Royal Lytham, Royal Troon etc. Privately educated, professional, cut glass accent....and 20 year old clubs, shiny grips, cracked shoes and moth eaten Pringle sweater so out of shape as to cover the mid thigh. Will look down on anyone from lesser clubs because their course hasn't hosted an Open. No matter what you wear, shoot or play with he or she is superior to you in every way.....avoid at all costs.

 

Must be tough keeping good balance for the full swing, with a massive chip on your shoulder :-S

 

Private clubs in North America are what they are and the models are so different comparing them to the UK is utterly pointless.

And there is loads of quality, affordable public golf in the US, where most of us play, and we don't spend any of our time while playing thinking about - or begrudging - the members at Olympic Club or Cypress Point.

[Schley]

Keeping with the topic I think a more accurate headline is the decline of the low/mid level CC, as opposed to all. The elite clubs are immune, and I would include up to the top 200 as pretty bulletproof unless their area goes through a downturn like a Detroit/Cleveland for example. The mid tier club is most susceptible IMO as they want to give off that high end quality (it is a private cc after all), but won't have the capital to pay the bills either short or possible debt service will eat them up after renovating the clubhouse or course. I would blame the membership for taking on too much debt plain and simple, you aren't an elite club, so don't borrow like you are to make the members feel like they are the "best kept secret" in the city because they now have a shooting range in the winter. Declines can be slow and gradual, which is the case with CC in my view, I look for more consolidation in major cities as combining lower participation rates of golfers and debt payments needing to be made have to be reconciled.

Older clubs that have old clubhouses / buildings / infrastructure has to ensure they have set aside ample capital funds for the useful life of those assets are typically well past their actuarial dates. It's important to try and spread out your capital projects, for you don't want that bill coming all in the same 1/2 year period. That carries risk and has assessment written all over the membership.

[david.c.w]

> @"Schley " said:

> Keeping with the topic I think a more accurate headline is the decline of the low/mid level CC, as opposed to all. The elite clubs are immune, and I would include up to the top 200 as pretty bulletproof unless their area goes through a downturn like a Detroit/Cleveland for example. The mid tier club is most susceptible IMO as they want to give off that high end quality (it is a private cc after all), but won't have the capital to pay the bills either short or possible debt service will eat them up after renovating the clubhouse or course. I would blame the membership for taking on too much debt plain and simple, you aren't an elite club, so don't borrow like you are to make the members feel like they are the "best kept secret" in the city because they now have a shooting range in the winter. Declines can be slow and gradual, which is the case with CC in my view, I look for more consolidation in major cities as combining lower participation rates of golfers and debt payments needing to be made have to be reconciled.

> Older clubs that have old clubhouses / buildings / infrastructure has to ensure they have set aside ample capital funds for the useful life of those assets are typically well past their actuarial dates. It's important to try and spread out your capital projects, for you don't want that bill coming all in the same 1/2 year period. That carries risk and has assessment written all over the membership.

 

Great comment and I think highlights some of the arguing/confusing in this thread. Many are talking apples and oranges. You certainly cannot compare a top 200 club with a ClubCorp club. There is certainly no decline in the top 200 and I would argue in the top 1000 clubs. My club is one of the ones in the Atlanta club thread and while we are somewhere between top 10 and top 15, we have a thriving membership with a 3+ year wait for golf. Multiply this by all the metro areas and you are way beyond 200 clubs that are solid in both finances and membership. ClubCorp, especially the base clubs, is trying to drive efficiencies that impact access and conditioning, resulting in a reduced member experience. I can see that if someone joins a low/mid tier club expecting valet parking, caddies, shoe shining and pipe night (all gross exaggerations), but end up only getting to play at 1:00 on a Saturday with 8 minute tee time intervals, they may decide to leave because their membership did not live up to their expectations and they are only out $100 - $1000 initiation fee.

 

For the purpose of the thread clubs should be broken down into 4 or 5 categories.

* Top 100 - Don't even bring them into the conversation. They are not going anywhere.

* $30k+ initiation - These clubs have been around for a long time and have established members and finances. Not bulletproof but most have survived the early 2010's and now have waiting lists and increased initiation fees.

* $5k+ initiation - May have great course but facilities might be aging and may have trouble fixing things up.

* $100+ initiation - **This is not a country club**. This is a month-to-month subscription.

 

One recurring theme in this thread is "I would never join because it is a waste of money". There are literally 0 people in the world that would argue that joining a country club is a prudent financial move. Those that join do so for a variety of reasons. Some for stature. Some because they have too much money. Some for regular games. Some for social reason. Some for course quality/conditioning. Some for the ability to show up anytime after noon on a Saturday and walk out on the course with no wait. Don't shame someone for their decision (something something glass houses).

 

Final note on the "hypothetical situation": No club worth its salt would bump someone up on the waiting list because they tried to drop $100k. End of story.

[Roadking2003]

> @QMany said:

> I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

>

> * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

 

It sounds like you shouldn't join a club. The issues you raise are minor and totally miss the most important reasons to join a club.

[QMany]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @QMany said:

> > I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

> >

> > * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> > * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> > * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

>

> It sounds like you shouldn't join a club. The issues you raise are minor and totally miss the most important reasons to join a club.

 

Again, that was just a few thoughts I had. I was a member at two clubs in Kansas City for the last 6 years and have joined a club here in Omaha for this year. But do enlighten us on the most important reasons to join a club, I'm all ears.