The decline of the country club

[North Butte]

The only "important reasons to join a club" are the things that matter to the person joining. I know guys who would never join a club without a caddie program, it's crucially important to them. I wouldn't play at a course with required caddies at all, it's opposite of important to me.

 

Nobody can tell someone else what they should or shouldn't be looking for in a country club membership.

[Roadking2003]

> @QMany said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @QMany said:

> > > I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

> > >

> > > * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> > > * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> > > * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

> >

> > It sounds like you shouldn't join a club. The issues you raise are minor and totally miss the most important reasons to join a club.

>

> Again, that was just a few thoughts I had. I was a member at two clubs in Kansas City for the last 6 years and have joined a club here in Omaha for this year. But do enlighten us on the most important reasons to join a club, I'm all ears.

 

It has nothing to do with rationalizing the cost. The most important aspect of a club is the people. Making lifelong friends who share your interests. If that is of little or no interest, you should just use public facilities because it will always be cheaper.

[North Butte]

Public golf is likely cheaper (although like everything it is totally geographically determined) but there is a value-for-money proposition in the golf portion per se of country club membership, totally separate from the social/networking aspects.

 

I've made about as many life-long friends in 15 years at my club as in the 20 years I've spent in my job. Just a couple in each case, I do not form life-long friendships very often. But of course many, many acquaintances in each context.

 

I chose my country club because it's a course that I want to play 130x a year, with policies that let me play the way I want (mostly) and yes with other members who I enjoy having a game with. And I can just about afford the cost. I chose my job because it's something I enjoy doing, it pays enough for me to live comfortably and yes, I work with people who treat each other and me with mutual respect.

 

I did not choose either in order to make friends. As I say, that may be an "important" element of country club membership for many people but for others it matters only tangentially to the main appeal of the golf.

[DonatelloNobodie]

I’m retired and not currently a member of a private club. For 20 years, I was a member of private clubs and enjoyed it. Financially, I can afford to join pretty much any club. I Used my club memberships often to entertain business clients.

 

Why am I not a member now?

Initiation fee is always at risk. I may move. Club may go bankrupt or get sold. Conditions or charges at the club may become undesirable. My neighbor lost a $50K initiation when his club went bankrupt after 2 years. Initiation fees advertised as “refundable” are often not. (Google for club member lawsuits)

I only want golf. I’d never use pools, tennis, health club, restaurant, etc. I can get these elsewhere better and for a lower cost.

Membership limits me to a single course.

 

What I want in golf:

Playing partners are the main objective. I currently belong to 2 leagues that play various courses, plus I have a regular foursome that I enjoy. Internet golf groups also provide good playing partners. I play only with people I enjoy.

Quality of the course. Daily fee courses with good design and conditioning are easy to find. If conditions become poor, I just go elsewhere.

No need for me to go private to get these

 

The only reason that I can think of to join a private is pace of play. Courses of which I was a member had very good pace of play, which was enforced vis peer pressure and marshals. Public golf can be very slow, although courses that are often slow can be avoided.

 

If cost is a factor for you, daily fee is the way to go. Tee time sites like GolfNow can offer very low rates (never pay “rack rate”). Cost per round is not a factor in choosing to join private.

 

The ability to practice of play a few holes exists with public options. Paying a 9-hole fee is an option.

 

Recent troubles in the golf industry are a great benefit to the public golfer. Raters are low and often discounted even more. Courses are not crowded. Evenings and weekdays are great times to play near-empty courses.

 

Are country clubs dead? Certainly not. High end, high cost, clubs will have no problems, given their membership demographic. There will be an industry weeding out of poorly managed clubs, clubs with high debt, and unsustainable real estate development courses. He industry will move toward well run country clubs and quality daily fee courses. Look very closely at the financials of a club, including assessments, before joining.

 

Other thoughts:

 

A “membership” in a “semi-private” course is just a season pass at a public.

If you belong to a private club for social status, you have a problem.

The ratio of a-holes at a private is the same as the ratio for the public in general.

If you feel good about being a memberor not, that is all that matters.

The basis laws of economics, supply and demand, will sort out the golf business future.

[North Butte]

> @DonatelloNobodie said:

> The basi[c] laws of economics, supply and demand, will sort out the golf business future.

This.

 

In these "future of golf" threads people like to vent about their pet likes/dislikes as though those are the factors that determine why clubs thrive versus survive versus fold. What kind of policy governs use of carts or how many nights the dining room is open or whether the club does or doesn't provide curbside club dropoff isn't the kind of thing that kills a country club.

 

Demographics, geography, competition and financial prudence completely outweigh everyone's collection of petty preferences. A club that's buried in debt, with an aging membership, in an area where four other clubs compete isn't going to get healthy by finding the perfect mix of amenities, social events and course renovations or by aggressively recruiting "Millennials".

[golfortennis]

Well this was an interesting thread. Everything from "I want what others have but don't want to have to pay for it," to well, Pepper posts. And a lot in between.

 

Recent posts brought back the "why would I pay $xx when public course offers this..." argument. Well, first of all, if you are thinking like that, you do need to make a good evaluation. It may not be for you. No one has ever said you get a "per round value" by joining. But the benefits I can think of are as follows:

 

* Ability to play any time(you almost always have access to the course)

* Ability to play less than a round-try paying a 9 hole green fee for a 6 pm tee time and walking off after 7 because it's dark at a public course.

* Practice facilities-provided your club has serviceable ones, you have full access to work as much as you want on your game.

* You play in poor weather. How often when you booked a tee time at a public course, the weather is/looks dicey, so you cancel the tee time? When you've paid for the membership, it gets you out there far more.

* Lockers and club storage. Depending on the club, you may not need to bring your clubs home, nor would you have to bring your shoes and other items, after each round. Especially a round where a few things got a bit wet, being able to just pop into the locker room is much easier than getting stuff in the car while it rains.

* Access to other courses. Within reason, your pro may be able to call and get you on to other private clubs. There may or may not be a fee, but this is a valuable perk at times.

* Conditions. You'll find very few public courses as well conditioned as a private club that will also come with a 4 hour round.

* Walking. You'll see a lot more walking options among private clubs than public courses.

* Social. You'll get to know people who have similar interests as you.

 

Now, your tradeoff is the dues, and the fact you're playing the same course. So one has to decide how much those are worth to them. For me, it's a no-brainer. Others, may be counting the pennies only.

 

The thing I will say is, I hear a lot of "join with friends", "want to play with my friends." There was even the scenario mentioned about "we want three tee times together." I think you have to be careful about making all your plans based on friends. They have different lives, different financial situations. If you want to join a club, you shouldn't let someone else outside your household make the decision. After all, how many times do you end up not doing something you want to do because you needed someone else to do it as well? That's the beauty of a club: there are people there. Sure you have to put yourself out there a bit, but are you seriously going to not play golf because Jimmy can't/won't play, and you don't want to play with someone else?

 

 

 

[Golfnuck]

Agree with Bluefan75 especially about the joining with friends parts. I have made several life time friends solely because of the golf club. At a minimum you will have the love of golf as a common denominator with most everyone at the club.

 

Yes there are multiple versions of the same theme going thru all the private club discussions -

- "I shouldn't join a private club because I hate playing the same course"

- "I can't justify the cost per round"

- "Why can't I play at a private club (when not a member or with a member)? I am willing to pay the one time fee and they wont notice me at all."

- "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

 

At the end of the day good private golf clubs will survive without any issues. There will certainly be many so called private clubs (part of real estate developments, Club Corp types etc) that will not survive.

 

I live in the greater Vancouver area with a population of 2.5 million. We have 4 (don't count Shaughnessy as it will close in 2032) private clubs with initiation fees $60k or more. So that represents 800 full play members times 4 clubs or 3,200 members out of 2.5 million or 0.13% of the population. FYI our club has a waitlist (with paid non refundable deposit) of over 70 members and that is likely 10 years before they get in????????????????

 

So I venture to suggest that there will be plenty of Millennials willing to pay out big $$$ to join an exclusive private club. That is just the way of human nature.

 

And there will be plenty of Millennials who simply want all that comes with a private club but expect it should just be given to them. This is the same with all generations.

 

The pendulum may swing a bit but it will always correct itself.

[jli2636]

> @Golfnuck said:

> - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

 

I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

 

 

[Golfnuck]

> @jli2636 said:

> > @Golfnuck said:

> > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

>

> I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

>

>

 

Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

 

 

[buckeyefl]

> @ImagineThat said:

> > @BNGL said:

>

> > So I am not quite sure what answer you’re looking for...

>

> >

>

> Not looking for an answer at all. I was just looking for people's thoughts on a hypothetical subject that I personally have no interest in nor do I have a feeling about, one way or another.

>

>

 

Really?

[jli2636]

> @Golfnuck said:

> > @jli2636 said:

> > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> >

> > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> >

> >

>

> Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

>

>

 

I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

[Schley]

> @jli2636 said:

> > @Golfnuck said:

> > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > >

> > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> >

> >

>

> I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

 

This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

 

At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

 

I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

[az2au]

While true, don’t forget that there are significantly more public courses in the US than the entire count of courses in GB&I. It isn’t like golf itself is inaccessible in the US and it isn’t like beginners are playing the best courses in the UK. The restrictions are really only dealing with wealthy people at both levels.

[pinhigh27]

> @jli2636 said:

> > @Golfnuck said:

> > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

>

> I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

>

>

 

But people don't really come to the US to play golf. And no one is going to Kansas to play golf. So its not the same comparison, vs a random course in scottland where tourists are playing.

[Hilltopper413]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @jli2636 said:

> > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > >

> > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

>

> This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

>

> At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

>

> I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

 

So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

[North Butte]

> @Hilltopper413 said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > > >

> > > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

> >

> > This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

> >

> > At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

> >

> > I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

>

> So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

 

At least in England, and I presume elsewhere in UK and Ireland, the key activity for club members are the weekly competitions. English club members of my acquaintance are far, far more into the "Saturday medal" comp every week than any USA golfer I've ever met. Along with Wednesday sections, frequent special comps, etc. All open to members only.

 

The well-known clubs over there charge anywhere from UKP100 (US$130) and up for visitor green fees. Those same clubs may have annual subscription costs of less than UKP1000 (US$1,300). At the lower end, a yearly membership may only cost half that much with visitor fees more like UKP30 (US$40) per round. Either way if you're going to play 50+ times a year the members are paying much less than a peripatetic unaffiliated golfer paying green fees.

 

But it's not about cost. It's about being a member, playing with members and most importantly playing in member comps.

[golfortennis]

> @az2au said:

> While true, don’t forget that there are significantly more public courses in the US than the entire count of courses in GB&I. It isn’t like golf itself is inaccessible in the US and it isn’t like beginners are playing the best courses in the UK. The restrictions are really only dealing with wealthy people at both levels.

 

Now, don't go pointing out inconsistencies in the argument. It's like people who complain "it's too expensive to go to a ball game." Actually, no it isn't. There are plenty of seats for pretty cheap. But what goes unsaid by the people complaining is they want seats 4 rows behind home plate. As you say, golf isn't inaccessible in the US, but there is no mileage to be gotten from being honest and saying "Augusta National/Pine Valley is too exclusionary."

 

But hey, everyone complaining about exclusionary golf in the US should tell us about the rounds they have played at the top 25 public courses on GD or Golf Magazine's lists. After all, they are the model, anyone can play them, right?

 

ETA: Please tell us about your round at Wentworth for those of you who travel to the UK.

[Roadking2003]

> @pinhigh27 said:> But people don't really come to the US to play golf. And no one is going to Kansas to play golf.

 

Not true on both counts. Lots of people come to the USA to play golf. And a trip to Kansas to play Prairie Dunes and Flint Hills National is well worth the effort.

[Zac1321]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Hilltopper413 said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

> > >

> > > This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

> > >

> > > At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

> > >

> > > I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

> >

> > So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

>

> At least in England, and I presume elsewhere in UK and Ireland, the key activity for club members are the weekly competitions. English club members of my acquaintance are far, far more into the "Saturday medal" comp every week than any USA golfer I've ever met. Along with Wednesday sections, frequent special comps, etc. All open to members only.

>

> The well-known clubs over there charge anywhere from UKP100 (US$130) and up for visitor green fees. Those same clubs may have annual subscription costs of less than UKP1000 (US$1,300). At the lower end, a yearly membership may only cost half that much with visitor fees more like UKP30 (US$40) per round. Either way if you're going to play 50+ times a year the members are paying much less than a peripatetic unaffiliated golfer paying green fees.

>

> But it's not about cost. It's about being a member, playing with members and most importantly playing in member comps.

 

yup, this. I am taking a trip to Australia for work in a few weeks and have noticed the same thing. Just about every single "private" course is accessible to international visitors or out of state travelers but only on maybe 2 days a week sometimes only in the afternoon or morning. few other days/half days are available for "social play" for members and Basically every other day is reserved for specific weekly comps for the members. Similar to the UK its not that you can just show up or schedule in advance if you aren't a member, there still are only very specific times that they are available to non-members but they definitely are accessible if you can work it into your schedule. It basically ensures that the only non members that are playing are people visiting for that purpose because all the times available for non-members wouldn't allow for someone local to play all the time unless they had a really specific work schedule

[duffer987]

> @Zac1321 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @Hilltopper413 said:

> > > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

> > > >

> > > > This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

> > > >

> > > > At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

> > > >

> > > > I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

> > >

> > > So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

> >

> > At least in England, and I presume elsewhere in UK and Ireland, the key activity for club members are the weekly competitions. English club members of my acquaintance are far, far more into the "Saturday medal" comp every week than any USA golfer I've ever met. Along with Wednesday sections, frequent special comps, etc. All open to members only.

> >

> > The well-known clubs over there charge anywhere from UKP100 (US$130) and up for visitor green fees. Those same clubs may have annual subscription costs of less than UKP1000 (US$1,300). At the lower end, a yearly membership may only cost half that much with visitor fees more like UKP30 (US$40) per round. Either way if you're going to play 50+ times a year the members are paying much less than a peripatetic unaffiliated golfer paying green fees.

> >

> > But it's not about cost. It's about being a member, playing with members and most importantly playing in member comps.

>

> yup, this. I am taking a trip to Australia for work in a few weeks and have noticed the same thing. Just about every single "private" course is accessible to international visitors or out of state travelers but only on maybe 2 days a week sometimes only in the afternoon or morning. few other days/half days are available for "social play" for members and Basically every other day is reserved for specific weekly comps for the members. Similar to the UK its not that you can just show up or schedule in advance if you aren't a member, there still are only very specific times that they are available to non-members but they definitely are accessible if you can work it into your schedule. It basically ensures that the only non members that are playing are people visiting for that purpose because all the times available for non-members wouldn't allow for someone local to play all the time unless they had a really specific work schedule

 

Not necessarily, mindful of their visitor's policy, you can just show up or give a quick ring to clubs in the UK/Ireland before arriving.

At the ones - like Schey's example of Sunny or most Rota courses - that operate a visitor-times cottage industry, sure it is more formal; but for the majority of clubs (including those that are worth crossing the ocean to play) it is simple and accessible.

[Zac1321]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @Zac1321 said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @Hilltopper413 said:

> > > > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

> > > > >

> > > > > At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

> > > >

> > > > So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

> > >

> > > At least in England, and I presume elsewhere in UK and Ireland, the key activity for club members are the weekly competitions. English club members of my acquaintance are far, far more into the "Saturday medal" comp every week than any USA golfer I've ever met. Along with Wednesday sections, frequent special comps, etc. All open to members only.

> > >

> > > The well-known clubs over there charge anywhere from UKP100 (US$130) and up for visitor green fees. Those same clubs may have annual subscription costs of less than UKP1000 (US$1,300). At the lower end, a yearly membership may only cost half that much with visitor fees more like UKP30 (US$40) per round. Either way if you're going to play 50+ times a year the members are paying much less than a peripatetic unaffiliated golfer paying green fees.

> > >

> > > But it's not about cost. It's about being a member, playing with members and most importantly playing in member comps.

> >

> > yup, this. I am taking a trip to Australia for work in a few weeks and have noticed the same thing. Just about every single "private" course is accessible to international visitors or out of state travelers but only on maybe 2 days a week sometimes only in the afternoon or morning. few other days/half days are available for "social play" for members and Basically every other day is reserved for specific weekly comps for the members. Similar to the UK its not that you can just show up or schedule in advance if you aren't a member, there still are only very specific times that they are available to non-members but they definitely are accessible if you can work it into your schedule. It basically ensures that the only non members that are playing are people visiting for that purpose because all the times available for non-members wouldn't allow for someone local to play all the time unless they had a really specific work schedule

>

> Not necessarily, mindful of their visitor's policy, you can just show up or give a quick ring to clubs in the UK/Ireland before arriving.

> At the ones - like Schey's example of Sunny or most Rota courses - that operate a visitor-times cottage industry, sure it is more formal, but for the majority of clubs (including those that are worth crossing the ocean to play) it is simple and accessible.

 

oh wow, that's good to know. Seems Australia is different as well then. My original point just being that the definition of private and how operations run just seem to be different than how we look at private clubs here in the states. pretty interesting to see all these differences

[duffer987]

> @Zac1321 said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @Zac1321 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > @Hilltopper413 said:

> > > > > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > > > @jli2636 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Golfnuck said:

> > > > > > > > > > - "This generation is more inclusive than all the previous generations so **let's just kill all the private clubs and let everyone play on them**." I guess they have never heard of the "hippie" movement from the 70's.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I mean the bolded portion works for the UK? Outside play subsidizes the cost for the members. Yes it is significantly more expensive for non members, but the opportunity to play those clubs is there overseas.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Years ago I did an analysis of the differences between the UK's definition of private clubs vs North America and I will try and find it but please clarify what are you trying to say?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I mean that there is really no such thing as a private golf course in the UK. People can even get on Muirfield. Is it difficult and expensive? Yes. Is it attainable? Yes. Can the same thing be said for even mediocre country clubs in the states? No. Almost any course in the UK can be played by a guest if they are willing to pony up the green fee. The same cannot be said about golf in the states. Golf is just more welcoming and inclusive in the UK and Ireland than it is in the states, in my opinion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is categorically true for sure. The models are different and not only do the UK clubs allow access they do actually treat you like a member, which is a treat. At Sunningdale this year I had my name on a welcome board and was escorted around the place and played as a 1 ball first tee time of the day, had lunch and away I went for my 2nd round. All the while looked after by the starter and dining staff. In the US you can't even get back the guard shack at the private clubs, much less arrange play at most.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At Walton Heath I was playing with a member who told me that 5 years ago he was taking a trip to the US for a month and wrote to some 10 private club "secretarys" and not one responded to him. He was disappointed and I had to apologize as he was actually a well heeled businessman who had just retired, but wasn't aware of the formal nature of the US clubs to that extent. Here he was hosting me, a nobody golfer from the US and treated me wonderfully.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wished the system were different, but the gate keepers at private clubs adhere to the status quo and that is very hard to change.

> > > > >

> > > > > So what is the point of becoming a member if you can access the club without membership? Why would I pay dues if I could just pay a green fee when I wanted to play. To me those are not private clubs, those are what we would call “semi-private” in the states. Basically a public course that sells a package to become a “member”.

> > > >

> > > > At least in England, and I presume elsewhere in UK and Ireland, the key activity for club members are the weekly competitions. English club members of my acquaintance are far, far more into the "Saturday medal" comp every week than any USA golfer I've ever met. Along with Wednesday sections, frequent special comps, etc. All open to members only.

> > > >

> > > > The well-known clubs over there charge anywhere from UKP100 (US$130) and up for visitor green fees. Those same clubs may have annual subscription costs of less than UKP1000 (US$1,300). At the lower end, a yearly membership may only cost half that much with visitor fees more like UKP30 (US$40) per round. Either way if you're going to play 50+ times a year the members are paying much less than a peripatetic unaffiliated golfer paying green fees.

> > > >

> > > > But it's not about cost. It's about being a member, playing with members and most importantly playing in member comps.

> > >

> > > yup, this. I am taking a trip to Australia for work in a few weeks and have noticed the same thing. Just about every single "private" course is accessible to international visitors or out of state travelers but only on maybe 2 days a week sometimes only in the afternoon or morning. few other days/half days are available for "social play" for members and Basically every other day is reserved for specific weekly comps for the members. Similar to the UK its not that you can just show up or schedule in advance if you aren't a member, there still are only very specific times that they are available to non-members but they definitely are accessible if you can work it into your schedule. It basically ensures that the only non members that are playing are people visiting for that purpose because all the times available for non-members wouldn't allow for someone local to play all the time unless they had a really specific work schedule

> >

> > Not necessarily, mindful of their visitor's policy, you can just show up or give a quick ring to clubs in the UK/Ireland before arriving.

> > At the ones - like Schey's example of Sunny or most Rota courses - that operate a visitor-times cottage industry, sure it is more formal, but for the majority of clubs (including those that are worth crossing the ocean to play) it is simple and accessible.

>

> oh wow, that's good to know. Seems Australia is different as well then. My original point just being that the definition of private and how operations run just seem to be different than how we look at private clubs here in the states. pretty interesting to see all these differences

 

Ya in the UK singles/twosome play at clubs is quite straight forward*

*With the usual exceptions of clubs that really do like being private and the biggies, which are on the tour operator trail.

Never been to Australia, hope you have a great trip and get some fun rounds in :-)

[North Butte]

I've heard that some of the big clubs in the Melbourne area have LOTS of local members. Several hundred in some cases, most of whom play regularly. A club with that large a local membership is certainly going to be limited in how many times a visitor can play.

[Schley]

> @"North Butte" said:

> I've heard that some of the big clubs in the Melbourne area have LOTS of local members. Several hundred in some cases, most of whom play regularly. A club with that large a local membership is certainly going to be limited in how many times a visitor can play.

 

Royal Melbourne has many more than several hundred. I can't remember the exact number but it was 700 or more. They have 2 courses remember.

[Pepperturbo]

> @QMany said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @QMany said:

> > > I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

> > >

> > > * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> > > * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> > > * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

> >

> > It sounds like you shouldn't join a club. The issues you raise are minor and totally miss the most important reasons to join a club.

>

> Again, that was just a few thoughts I had. I was a member at two clubs in Kansas City for the last 6 years and have joined a club here in Omaha for this year. But do enlighten us on the most important reasons to join a club, I'm all ears.

 

Curious @QMany... You say you joined two clubs in KC for 6yrs and joined another in Omaha. What level of clubs where they? Full-private golf or country clubs and did you pay hefty initiation fees for each? If so, did you walk away from each club leaving initiation fee monies on the table, or were your memberships sold in the secondary market or minimal fee clubs?

[QMany]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @QMany said:

> > > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > > @QMany said:

> > > > I thought I would throw a few thoughts into the ring. We just moved to a new metropolitan area and have been doing the country club cost benefit analysis. I'm just thinking out loud here...

> > > >

> > > > * We bought a home in a new subdivision. Like many in this era, it will have its own neighborhood pool. That negates one of the benefits of joining a CC. My wife will walk a block instead of packing up and driving. She can bring a friend or niece and not be charged $20!

> > > > * I have never been a fan of the country club restaurants. We rarely ate at my previous club. I'd rather go to a variety of local spots, most of which will have better quality food. I think F&B minimums are a deterrent to new members.

> > > > * Young Professionals. A few clubs here don't offer reduced rates, which I don't think is smart. This generation has been squeezed by stagnant wages when compared to raising housing, healthcare, and education costs. It doesn't make sense for most young families to join at full rack rates.

> > >

> > > It sounds like you shouldn't join a club. The issues you raise are minor and totally miss the most important reasons to join a club.

> >

> > Again, that was just a few thoughts I had. I was a member at two clubs in Kansas City for the last 6 years and have joined a club here in Omaha for this year. But do enlighten us on the most important reasons to join a club, I'm all ears.

>

> Curious @QMany... You say you joined two clubs in KC for 6yrs and joined another in Omaha. What level of clubs where they? Full-private golf or country clubs and did you pay hefty initiation fees for each? If so, did you walk away from each club leaving initiation fee monies on the table, or were your memberships sold in the secondary market or minimal fee clubs?

 

Canyon Farms GC, Lenexa, Kansas (2013-15): Golf club only. When I arrived in town, they were "semi-private" after a recent acquisition. They offered cheap memberships my first year. They increased dues considerably during my three years there. At the time of my departure, a new group known for running clubs into the ground acquired them. They were supposedly building a new practice facility and clubhouse. Four years later, it is now done. They were getting $6,000 initiation, which is about par for the clubs not on the Plaza, but previous members were grandfathered in.

 

Nicklaus Golf Club at Lions Gate, Overland Park, KS (2015-18): Full country club (clubhouse, restaurant, pool, tennis, etc.). Host of the Web.com for over a decade, until this year. ClubCorp owned and operated, so it was all about the bottom line. When I joined in November 2015, it was a $3000 initiation for Junior Members. If I remember correctly, it was closer to $10,000 for over 40. (Before the recession, it was $25,000+ equity membership). As now a corporately owned course, the initiation wasn't huge because they just seemed to want a full membership at all times; the turnover seemed high. That was non-refundable (and non-transferable to the ClubCorp operated club in Omaha).

 

Shadow Ridge Country Club, Omaha, NE (2019-present): Full country club (clubhouse, restaurant, pool, tennis, etc.). Probably Top-3 private club in Omaha. More importantly for me, Top-50 Private Range in America. Privately owned by an Omaha family. $10,000 initiation no matter your age, no junior memberships. They have a real estate arm that offers deep discounts and sometimes even waiving initiation if you use their agents, which we did. I understand it used to be equity memberships, but I have heard there is not much value in that nomenclature, members that left 5-10 years ago are still far down the list waiting on their $25,000+.

[pinhigh27]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @pinhigh27 said:> But people don't really come to the US to play golf. And no one is going to Kansas to play golf.

>

> Not true on both counts. Lots of people come to the USA to play golf. And a trip to Kansas to play Prairie Dunes and Flint Hills National is well worth the effort.

 

That is two courses in the whole state the point is travelers aren't subsidizing the other hundreds within the state.

 

 

[North Butte]

> @pinhigh27 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @pinhigh27 said:> But people don't really come to the US to play golf. And no one is going to Kansas to play golf.

> >

> > Not true on both counts. Lots of people come to the USA to play golf. And a trip to Kansas to play Prairie Dunes and Flint Hills National is well worth the effort.

>

> That is two courses in the whole state the point is travelers aren't subsidizing the other hundreds within the state.

 

In fairness, the vast majority of golf clubs in England are wide open to any visitors who want to make a tee time. Unless they are one of the <100 which attract USA tourists the green fees "subsidize" maybe 10 or 20 percent of the club's budget.

 

The sort of everyday local clubs that make up the majority of UK golf have cheap subs because they spend a tiny, tiny fraction of the amount of money a country club in Kansas would spend on a yearly basis. One smaller club where I had an overseas membership for a couple years probably has an entire yearly greenskeeping budget equal to my USA club's spending in one month during high season. And the clubhouse would typically have a grand total of 3-4 people present on a weekday (including pro shop, bar, office) where my club has a dozen staff in and around the clubhouse even on a Tuesday in February with virtually no golfers.

[duffer987]

Interestingly for kicks I was taking a look Sat evening for a Sunday round on Golfnow and I saw a local private course Berkeley CC/Formerly Mira Vista show up with a number of Sunday afternoon rounds.

Since I moved here, it's always been one of the few non-expensive joins in the Bay Area and I guess it now points to what folks have mentioned here about the mid-tiers being the ones to struggle.

 

So generally speaking - as who knows what their particulars are - is this GN listing the first public facing canary in the coalmine for this particular club? I'm guessing members wouldn't be too keen for this. They list it as 'member for the day', but I don't think GN is where you go to tout for new members to your club.

[smashdn]

This is my (limited) understanding of UK golf and the difference in the US.

 

In the UK you are a member of a club that plays at and takes care of a golf course possibly with other clubs playing at the same course. In the US you are a member of a club that owns (perhaps leases) the land, course, buildings, pool, tennis etc.