Haley Moore

[Bizzle80]

I should just ignore his posts, but I can't help myself...

 

LPGA players rarely pay hotel fees at events unless they really want to. Every event they go to, club members generally host - or they have other local host families. How do I know this? Because we host players when they are in LA (event is at my club) as do other members from my club. We talk to these women, so I have a first hand accounting of how difficult tour can be. It does NOT cost them millions of dollars, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to play. 

 

Most of the Asian international events actually pay them to go and cover their travel...which is why so many of the players love the asian tour events. 

 

Regardless these women play on tour because they for the most part love competing. Is it a struggle for some? Of course. Is it hard to earn a living on the Epson tour? Of course. But why do you think you know what is better for them? Only Lexi and Brooke should turn pro early? What are you going to say when Li or Pano win an event next year?

 

The difference between number 25 and number 250 on tour (PGA or LGPA) is really not that different. If you ask most of the players its simply about being consistent and getting hot at the right times to move up from KFT to PGA or Epson to LPGA. They all say its harder to get your card than to keep it.

 

If these women have the opportunity to play and be competitive as pros why on earth would they stay in college - if going pro is the goal to start with. IF the goal is to go pro, its better to be a pro and be able to dedicate themselves...versus having to carry a class load of assignments and limited practice time.

 

 

[jj9000]

55 minutes ago, iteachgolf said:

Your ignorance is astounding.  Players absolutely do not pay their caddies travel cost.  Caddies pay their own way out of their weekly rate and winning percentage.  You honestly believe you know more about this than me?   You do realize I teach players from all over the world and travel all over the world to attend events, don’t you? At one point I was traveling to 30-35 professional events a year.  You don’t think I know what it cost for me to attend more events than the average player plays a year?  

 

Dan...you're better than this.  Folks in this part of the Forum know what you do and understand your competency.

 

Just ignore the dude.

 

"Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty, and the pig enjoys it."

[tiger1873]

12 hours ago, iteachgolf said:

Your ignorance is astounding.  Players absolutely do not pay their caddies travel cost.  Caddies pay their own way out of their weekly rate and winning percentage.  You honestly believe you know more about this than me?   You do realize I teach players from all over the world and travel all over the world to attend events, don’t you? At one point I was traveling to 30-35 professional events a year.  You don’t think I know what it cost for me to attend more events than the average player plays a year?  

 

Let me see it the truth got out maybe people wouldn't pay you money.  Pro golf doesn't always pay that is the truth. You seem to think living on 50k a year is a good amount of money or something.   You can work at Bucky's and make more than that.   

 

If you not making 200-300k after expenses you wasting time doing tournament golf there is more money doing something else in life.  Most people figure this out and it only worth it for the top players.

 

I understand people doing it for a year or two to said they did it but after a while reality sets in and they move on. 

 

Some the people here seem to vested in not owning up to realty of the costs on tour. Not much use in talking more about it.

[tiger1873]

11 hours ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

 

If these women have the opportunity to play and be competitive as pros why on earth would they stay in college - if going pro is the goal to start with. IF the goal is to go pro, its better to be a pro and be able to dedicate themselves...versus having to carry a class load of assignments and limited practice time.

 

 

 

 

Here is the thing going to college and being good enough to get it paid for is a lot money.  Some these private schools packages are 70k a year. That's $280k they are turning down. I am not including all the extra training and tournaments for further development. 

 

Now if they turn pro the vast majority of Juniors and Amateurs are lucky to pull in 100k before they washout.  If you happen to be able to put the numbers up obviously being pro paid off. You can probably count those successful on 1 hand. The truth is 99.9% of the kids out there are not ready to turn pro at 17 or 18.  In fact many that do pro and end up being successful  take 3-4 years develop before they make money. Those that go to college like Jennifer Kupcho make money almost right away. This tells me that college makes sense for a lot players.

 

Even Tiger woods went to college before turning pro. That says a lot because he certainly didn't have to.

 

Ever see what happens to some these girls who turned down college and went pro too early??? They end up working at golf shops behind the counter.  

 

No one has said these girls or boys for that matter have to stay 4 years in college.  But it pretty obvious that if your turn down college it costs the vast major of kids money in the long run.

 

If you are Alexa Pano who basally lived as a touring pro your whole life maybe college is not on your mind but I guarantee you that is the exception rather than the rule.

Edited January 19, 2023 by tiger1873

[iteachgolf]

11 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Let me see it the truth got out maybe people wouldn't pay you money.  Pro golf doesn't always pay that is the truth. You seem to think living on 50k a year is a good amount of money or something.   You can work at Bucky's and make more than that.   

 

If you not making 200-300k after expenses you wasting time doing tournament golf there is more money doing something else in life.  Most people figure this out and it only worth it for the top players.

 

I understand people doing it for a year or two to said they did it but after a while reality sets in and they move on. 

 

Some the people here seem to vested in not owning up to realty of the costs on tour. Not much use in talking more about it.

Read what you just wrote.  If you’re not making $300k you should quite because you’d make more money doing something else?  Do you realize how few people make $300k a year net? Making more than that would put you in the top 1%, and that’s income, not net after expenses.  Where did I say anything about earning $50k a year? 
 

 

and what are you taking about with regards to people not paying me?  I tell almost everyone that playing in college is a tall order and successful professional golf is exponentially more unlikely(about .25% of D1 golfers have a professional career of 5 years or longer on the PGA Tour). I know those numbers because I care to do research and am honest with people.  I think all boys and most girls absolutely should play and need to play some college golf, even the ones who are/were ranked number 1 in JGS and AJGA Rolex Rankings. 

[tiger1873]

8 hours ago, iteachgolf said:

Read what you just wrote.  If you’re not making $300k you should quite because you’d make more money doing something else?  Do you realize how few people make $300k a year net? Making more than that would put you in the top 1%, and that’s income, not net after expenses.  Where did I say anything about earning $50k a year? 
 

 

and what are you taking about with regards to people not paying me?  I tell almost everyone that playing in college is a tall order and successful professional golf is exponentially more unlikely(about .25% of D1 golfers have a professional career of 5 years or longer on the PGA Tour). I know those numbers because I care to do research and am honest with people.  I think all boys and most girls absolutely should play and need to play some college golf, even the ones who are/were ranked number 1 in JGS and AJGA Rolex Rankings. 

 

Do you know that $40-50k is pretty much minimum wage now with the inflation we have???  $!00-150k is probably going be average here in a year or two and $200-300k is what 100k was a few years ago. Most these players especially girls never even make close to $50k after expenses.

 

An average house in the  US is pretty close to $500k now.. So yes if you not out there making $300k as one the best golfers in the world something is wrong and you should probably go get a different job.

 

Golf is great tool to use in business and being good at it will no doubt earn you a lot money.  I can understand someone going out there giving a try for a year of two and see what happens on tour.  You have to bring in some serious money from winnings to play on tour for any length of time.

Edited January 20, 2023 by tiger1873

[leezer99]

[StudentGolfer4]

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Do you know that $40-50k is pretty much minimum wage now with the inflation we have???  $!00-150k is probably going be average here in a year or two and $200-300k is what 100k was a few years ago. Most these players especially girls never even make close to $50k after expenses.

 

An average house in the  US is pretty close to $500k now.. So yes if you not out there making $300k as one the best golfers in the world something is wrong and you should probably go get a different job.

 

Golf is great tool to use in business and being good at it will no doubt earn you a lot money.  I can understand someone going out there giving a try for a year of two and see what happens on tour.  You have to bring in some serious money from winnings to play on tour for any length of time.

Haha go tell all the teachers, nurses, police, and firefighters they are working for basically minimum wage.

 

It’s possible you are in San Francisco or New York or another major metro so your numbers are skewed but you seem a bit detached from what a lot of Americans actually make. Go look at the number or states that still have a minimum wage of $8 or fewer. Check out starting salaries if the positions I listed above. Indiana democrats have been trying to get the starting salary for teachers up to 40k for years. Many rural districts are still low 30s. Please continue telling us how $40-50 is basically minimum wage and will be 100-150k soon. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by StudentGolfer4

[tiger1873]

23 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Haha go tell all the teachers, nurses, police, and firefighters they are working for basically minimum wage.

 

It’s possible you are in San Francisco or New York or another major metro so your numbers are skewed but you seem a bit detached from what a lot of Americans actually make. Go look at the number or states that still have a minimum wage of $8 or fewer. Check out starting salaries if the positions I listed above. Indiana democrats have been trying to get the starting salary for teachers up to 40k for years. Many rural districts are still low 30s. Please continue telling us how $40-50 is basically minimum wage and will be 100-150k soon. 

 

I don't know where you live but I have seen signs paying cashiers $20 an hour at gas stations and fast food joints.  And this was in small towns up and down the east coast. Peoples wages are going up a lot lately. It truly shocking how much you have to pay if try to hire someone or even build anything lately.

[Movingday]

28 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

I don't know where you live but I have seen signs paying cashiers $20 an hour at gas stations and fast food joints.  And this was in small towns up and down the east coast. Peoples wages are going up a lot lately. It truly shocking how much you have to pay if try to hire someone or even build anything lately.

I love that you’ve “seen some signs” so you now equate that to the average salary of the entire US. 
For the record my wife and I are both teachers of over 20 years. We barely break 100K combined. We live a nice life and both love our jobs. For some people the goal of a job isn’t make the most money possible. Money is nice, but it’s not everything. 
Your uninformed, vast generalizations in every thread over multiple years, make you the least credible poster on these forums. You spout out all of the bs and then when presented with facts you disappear.

Anyway, I’m sure we will get to hear “what you have learned” and how some parent is “manipulating the rankings” or “some kids only play easy courses” from you very soon. Can’t wait to see what is your next complaint of what someone else is doing. 
Happy Friday

[tiger1873]

15 minutes ago, Movingday said:

I love that you’ve “seen some signs” so you now equate that to the average salary of the entire US. 
For the record my wife and I are both teachers of over 20 years. We barely break 100K combined. We live a nice life and both love our jobs. For some people the goal of a job isn’t make the most money possible. Money is nice, but it’s not everything. 
Your uninformed, vast generalizations in every thread over multiple years, make you the least credible poster on these forums. You spout out all of the bs and then when presented with facts you disappear.

Anyway, I’m sure we will get to hear “what you have learned” and how some parent is “manipulating the rankings” or “some kids only play easy courses” from you very soon. Can’t wait to see what is your next complaint of what someone else is doing. 
Happy Friday

 

 

I don't know what you are bitter about but you should be using the Ace grant program and other options to help you afford golf for your kids.  

 

A lot of us are forced to pay for everything to play tournaments.   It just tournaments this day and age they make us pay more for everything out there.

[Movingday]

12 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

 

I don't know what you are bitter about but you should be using the Ace grant program and other options to help you afford golf for your kids.  

 

A lot of us are forced to pay for everything to play tournaments.   It just tournaments this day and age they make us pay more for everything out there.

Lol at another assumption. I’m not poor. I’m not bitter. I chose my career and enjoy what I do and live a nice life. I am “forced” to pay for everything golf related as well and not once did I say I couldn’t afford golf for my kids. This is great because you just make my points for me. You must be a blast at party’s!

[jj9000]

1 hour ago, Movingday said:

I love that you’ve “seen some signs” so you now equate that to the average salary of the entire US. 
For the record my wife and I are both teachers of over 20 years. We barely break 100K combined. We live a nice life and both love our jobs. For some people the goal of a job isn’t make the most money possible. Money is nice, but it’s not everything. 
Your uninformed, vast generalizations in every thread over multiple years, make you the least credible poster on these forums. You spout out all of the bs and then when presented with facts you disappear.

Anyway, I’m sure we will get to hear “what you have learned” and how some parent is “manipulating the rankings” or “some kids only play easy courses” from you very soon. Can’t wait to see what is your next complaint of what someone else is doing. 
Happy Friday

 

Me...just cruising through the thread...oh look!!:

 

 

You've chosen to ignore content by tiger1873. Options 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

8 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Do you know that $40-50k is pretty much minimum wage now with the inflation we have???  $!00-150k is probably going be average here in a year or two and $200-300k is what 100k was a few years ago. Most these players especially girls never even make close to $50k after expenses.

 

An average house in the  US is pretty close to $500k now.. So yes if you not out there making $300k as one the best golfers in the world something is wrong and you should probably go get a different job.

 

Golf is great tool to use in business and being good at it will no doubt earn you a lot money.  I can understand someone going out there giving a try for a year of two and see what happens on tour.  You have to bring in some serious money from winnings to play on tour for any length of time.

Again where did I say anything about earning $50k a year.   You make stuff up and attribute arguments to people that never existed rather than actually discussing what was said, because you have no actual follow up

[iteachgolf]

7 hours ago, leezer99 said:

/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/image.png.e57258abcf1d1850bbd376a933a1596f.png/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/image.png.75875cc66f5dd81cab065f9e55695188.png/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/image.png.1afa47646a60a25bdea31f26a103510e.png/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/cdn-cgi/mirage/1121a3b549587a9bf0bb8cb6a99a115c83c0296343c3e716166a037e2fcdfb5d/1280/https://wrxcdn.golfwrx.com/uploads/monthly_2023_01/image.png.54439d3990f80a74049b6a4cc52ed45b.png

To me those cost are all high.  Teachers base pay of $2,500 is high, especially if they are earning a percentage.  Trainer base pay seems really high, especially because those guys can work with 10 guys a week. PGA Tour players have to pay an “entry fee” as well.  Not saying nobody pays those numbers but the vast majority aren’t. 

[MWhack]

On 1/19/2023 at 3:32 AM, iteachgolf said:

Some of these numbers are obscene.  If you’re spending over $200k a year playing on tour it’s because you’re spending frivolously.  Only way Kang lost money on the week making $6k is if she flew private.   Hotel and caddy expenses are $2500 (or less) a week if you’re not staying at 5 star places. Guys/gals who are thrifty can play 25 events for about $80k a year on Korn Ferry Tour and LPGA Tour would be similar.  PGA Tour would be similar, caddies are paid more base per event but they get courtesy cars every week for free. The difference is about a wash. 

so right, I know a ET player very good and he told me his expenses were 100k per year, many numbers your guys are posting is because they dont take the cheap flights or budget good and other numbers like coach payment is also lower as most coaches take % (i have heard, from ET player at least)
if you make 100k or 10mil is a big difference in expenses right?
Im pretty sure you can be BE with 100-200k$
This ET player is now a Top guy and has the last 2years more than doubled in his expenses because he won a lot!
We also meet here on a weekly base LET player, they have way more travel expenses than LPGA player, they dont need 400k to be break even, not even close.

Yes professional golf is expensive but not 300-500k

[MWhack]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:22 PM, tiger1873 said:

 

Do you know that $40-50k is pretty much minimum wage now with the inflation we have???  $!00-150k is probably going be average here in a year or two and $200-300k is what 100k was a few years ago. Most these players especially girls never even make close to $50k after expenses.

 

An average house in the  US is pretty close to $500k now.. So yes if you not out there making $300k as one the best golfers in the world something is wrong and you should probably go get a different job.

 

Golf is great tool to use in business and being good at it will no doubt earn you a lot money.  I can understand someone going out there giving a try for a year of two and see what happens on tour.  You have to bring in some serious money from winnings to play on tour for any length of time.

its crazy to read your post, first you state they are bleeding money if they don't make xxx k 
after that you say its a waste of time cause they could make somewhere else 300k
and again you realize your comments are a joke and you are coming with inflation and in 2-3 years 300k will be like 100k back in the day... 

in couple posts you will say, yes but they will be 50 in 2050 they need to be setuped for retirement and need to have 50million on their bank, by reading all this its better to sit at home and just live from socials and be happy cause it will never be enough

[allenartlab]

6 hours ago, MWhack said:

so right, I know a ET player very good and he told me his expenses were 100k per year, many numbers your guys are posting is because they dont take the cheap flights or budget good and other numbers like coach payment is also lower as most coaches take % (i have heard, from ET player at least)
if you make 100k or 10mil is a big difference in expenses right?
Im pretty sure you can be BE with 100-200k$
This ET player is now a Top guy and has the last 2years more than doubled in his expenses because he won a lot!
We also meet here on a weekly base LET player, they have way more travel expenses than LPGA player, they dont need 400k to be break even, not even close.

Yes professional golf is expensive but not 300-500k

Thanks for the info. Just make sure I get it right: your data suggests that at mini-tour to KFT levels, $200K expense is sufficient for playing say 20 events? 

[tiger1873]

6 hours ago, MWhack said:

its crazy to read your post, first you state they are bleeding money if they don't make xxx k 
after that you say its a waste of time cause they could make somewhere else 300k
and again you realize your comments are a joke and you are coming with inflation and in 2-3 years 300k will be like 100k back in the day... 

in couple posts you will say, yes but they will be 50 in 2050 they need to be setuped for retirement and need to have 50million on their bank, by reading all this its better to sit at home and just live from socials and be happy cause it will never be enough

Why would anyone want to play on tour  full tome and make less the. 300k after expenses for more then a year or two.  Most pro’s are pretty decent at selling. So why beat your head against the wall trying to keep a tour card when you can make more doing something else.

 

As for inflation I don’t know where you live but go look at what a apartments cost to rent. It’s hard to find an apartment in a safe area for less then 2k.  As for houses go

look at million dollar houses there not mansions and just regular houses.

 

Being a pro golfer is very expensive and for

LPGA player the biggest obstacle for the majority of them is not there game but making enough money to keep

playing.
 

 

[MWhack]

2 hours ago, allenartlab said:

Thanks for the info. Just make sure I get it right: your data suggests that at mini-tour to KFT levels, $200K expense is sufficient for playing say 20 events? 

Okay just to explain what i mean, on the European Tour, you have to travel a lot, if you have a bad year and most of your expenses beside of travel are one a % base, you can be break even with 100k yes.
 

 

1 hour ago, tiger1873 said:

Why would anyone want to play on tour  full tome and make less the. 300k after expenses for more then a year or two.  Most pro’s are pretty decent at selling. So why beat your head against the wall trying to keep a tour card when you can make more doing something else.

 

As for inflation I don’t know where you live but go look at what a apartments cost to rent. It’s hard to find an apartment in a safe area for less then 2k.  As for houses go

look at million dollar houses there not mansions and just regular houses.

 

Being a pro golfer is very expensive and for

LPGA player the biggest obstacle for the majority of them is not there game but making enough money to keep

playing.
 

 

Where did I say some wants to play to be break even? All I say is your statements change after every time you write something just to underline you are right...
But just to show you why someone would like to play more than 2 years, check out for example Adrian Meronk, he kept grinding and hit the Top50 incl Masters Invite, he will probably get a shot very soon for a Card. One year is enough to change your life but you need to grind.
100k+ is btw a very achievable number to get from sponsors, so however the bad year is you are most likely still somehow still in the money!

[iteachgolf]

10 hours ago, allenartlab said:

Thanks for the info. Just make sure I get it right: your data suggests that at mini-tour to KFT levels, $200K expense is sufficient for playing say 20 events? 

At those levels $200k is a joke.  Can be done for under $50k on mini tours and under $80k on KFT.  

[tiger1873]

10 hours ago, MWhack said:

Okay just to explain what i mean, on the European Tour, you have to travel a lot, if you have a bad year and most of your expenses beside of travel are one a % base, you can be break even with 100k yes.
 

 

Where did I say some wants to play to be break even? All I say is your statements change after every time you write something just to underline you are right...
But just to show you why someone would like to play more than 2 years, check out for example Adrian Meronk, he kept grinding and hit the Top50 incl Masters Invite, he will probably get a shot very soon for a Card. One year is enough to change your life but you need to grind.
100k+ is btw a very achievable number to get from sponsors, so however the bad year is you are most likely still somehow still in the money!

Dude what do you care you think it small money to pay a coach for a US kids to travel to the US and pay for a free trip.

[MWhack]

18 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

Dude what do you care you think it small money to pay a coach for a US kids to travel to the US and pay for a free trip.

Is it possible that you are the biggest clown on this board? never said its small money!
You take things out of context and misinterpret them... I'm done with you clown spread your lies and your "facts" nobody can confirm!
I just shared how much ET player have to pay in a bad year, you have just guesses and these change every post... crazy think should just block you

[leezer99]

@MWhack Prepare yourself for a message from the mods. I've gotten my fair share. 

 

[MWhack]

5 hours ago, leezer99 said:

@MWhack Prepare yourself for a message from the mods. I've gotten my fair share. 

 

Yeah if I get a message it is how it is, but its like he acts on purpose like that... my 9y daughter can argue better than him, with logic 

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, MWhack said:

Yeah if I get a message it is how it is, but its like he acts on purpose like that... my 9y daughter can argue better than him, with logic 

 

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

[SheriffBooth]

I'm not sure what's going on in this thread, but it's not about Haley Moore any more.  Rather than delete the last two pages of posts, we're just going to close the thread.  If you want to start a thread about traveling expenses for professional golfers, feel free.  Or if there is more discussion about Haley Moore needed, feel free to start a new thread.

 

We'll figure out what went wrong here and dish out warning as appropriate.

 

/thread