Adam Scott on why driving is no longer a skill in pro golf

[FairwaysToHeaven]

firm and fast raises scores....but it doesn't address driving distance and how far guys are hitting it off the tee. firming up greens would likely give long hitters an even further advantage as short hitters coming in with longer clubs would have an even harder time stopping the ball on green

[PhilWhitUK]

The point about physique is not that mankind is changing but that players coming in to this sport (and other sports) are more homogenous in terms of body type There is a book called “The Sporting Gene” that examines this. If you look at photos of many team sports from years ago you will see many different body types. As more money has come into the sport (most sports) the body types become more common (more specialist to the sport ). Of course there are exceptions but increasingly we are likely to see body types like Brooks and DJ entering golf as they have the physical gifts to take the rewards. You try to be an Olympic rower if you aren’t tall with a large arms span no matter how good your technique....

[extrastiff]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

>

> These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

 

I hit my 5 iron 215 easy. and then this morning, on my warm-up swing, its misty, and my wet club flies out of my hand into the trailer-park. I cant see it from the tee. its 7am. I leave with-out my 5 iron. now my 5 iron goes 0-yards.

The human is the most important factor in a golf swing. And the most important factor in who wins a golf tournament. Par is irrelevant to who wins a major

[c7015]

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @c7015 said:

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > @c7015 said:

> > > > Just change Par , problem solved

> > >

> > > But that's not really the gist of this thread, score in relation to par is relative anyway. This thread is about how the skill has been taken out of driving.

> > > 1. you don't need to shape the ball any longer, and if you do you can just generally play one shot around the course.

> > > 2. you don't need to worry about taking spin off the drive into the wind. Into the wind? just bust it.

> > > 3. you don't need to worry about hitting fairways, bomb and gouge baby!

> > > 4. you dont need to decide if you are playing a ball that gives you more off the tee or more around the green

> > >

> > > Adams point is that he feels he used to be a skilled driver, and it gave him an advantage. Now everyone just tees it up and kills it with no thought to shaping shots high/low/left/right, or hitting fairways.

> > >

> >

> > that is the gist

> >

> > "Adam Scott says the art of driving will vanish from the PGA Tour and **scores will continue to blow out** unless officials do away with weak golf courses."

> >

> > ok so all the par 5's at from last week are par 4's now. Was it a blowout score still? not enough driveable par 4's are now just long par 3's since these guys expect to make bird anyway. You can make all these mechanical changes to the game but the easiest & most affordable one is just changing what the expectation is for them.

> >

> > “I’m not (surprised to see low scores at Medinah); if a golf course is soft we are just going to tear it apart,” Scott said."

> >

> > Ok so if we know you are going to tear it apart we make the expectation of par lower when courses are soft.

> >

> >

>

> Par is relative though. Whether you shoot 62 on a par 68 or a 62 on a par 72 you still shot a 62.

 

Exactly so who cares if these guys are eating up courses with "low scores", that just relative to your expectation of what they should have shot. That is the new benchmark for what you must be able to do as a golfer today.

 

Ball curves plenty on tour and at your home course and everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage in terms of the tech they can play, the course you play etc. In my veiw, it still comes down to the Indian, not the arrow. If Adam thinks it's easy why not improve his total driving stats.

 

Most golf is the diversity of your shots, how often you can repeat a desired shot and how well can you do that under pressure. I'm not in favour of any adjustment that tries to protect for just one type of player or one skill, like trying to "tiger proof" a course.

 

 

[Divot2]

Still gotta love how some say “ it’s de-skilling the game”..... Get out on Tour hot rods! It still takes quite a bit of skill to swing at high speed and still bang the middle of a driver straight and most of all, consistent. Do some of you realize these guys are the 1% of the 1%!! I’m sorry that their misses with the driver aren’t slicing or hooking 7 fairways away and some think it’s the driver that does that. It’s still a game of high skill and strategy to beat these courses.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> >

> > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

>

> I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

 

It just matters to be honest how equipment technology has changed the pro game and changed par.

[Johnny Biarritz]

Maybe the catch isn't longer, but shorter. Look back at the Tiger-Phil thing and the playoff. They took 8 shots from about 85 yards and made one birdie. Sure, the hole was a gimmick in that instance, but why not recreate the concept? 17 at Sawgrass is 135 yards, plays dead level par. 7 at Pebble is 110, plays at level par.

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > >

> > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> >

> > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

>

> It just matters to be honest how equipment technology has changed the pro game and changed par.

 

Again, how so? Saying it matters doesn't explain anything. My 5i can go 220 and I have some 280 3w's off the tee under my belt, I still don't hold a candle to the pros. Despite these equipment changes, the gap between the pros and ams has not changed, if anything it has grown even larger. Everyone likes to blame the ball and clubs and fail to realize it's the players themselves that have changed.

 

Their preparation, conditioning, and focus is better than ever and all of the former black magic of what made up a good player can now be explained with data backed science. I really only think the one's upset with how the game has changed are those folks who's games have stagnated or regressed despite all of the technology at their hands, so it's easier to get mad at the pros and point fingers than accept the reality of their own game.

[Divot2]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > >

> > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> >

> > It just matters to be honest how equipment technology has changed the pro game and changed par.

>

> Again, how so? Saying it matters doesn't explain anything. My 5i can go 220 and I have some 280 3w's off the tee under my belt, I still don't hold a candle to the pros. Despite these equipment changes, the gap between the pros and ams has not changed, if anything it has grown even larger. Everyone likes to blame the ball and clubs and fail to realize it's the players themselves that have changed.

>

> Their preparation, conditioning, and focus is better than ever and all of the former black magic of what made up a good player can now be explained with data backed science. I really only think the one's upset with how the game has changed are those folks who's games have stagnated or regressed despite all of the technology at their hands, so it's easier to get mad at the pros and point fingers than accept the reality of their own game.

 

Spot on!

 

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > >

> > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> >

> > It just matters to be honest how equipment technology has changed the pro game and changed par.

>

> Again, how so? Saying it matters doesn't explain anything. My 5i can go 220 and I have some 280 3w's off the tee under my belt, I still don't hold a candle to the pros. Despite these equipment changes, the gap between the pros and ams has not changed, if anything it has grown even larger. Everyone likes to blame the ball and clubs and fail to realize it's the players themselves that have changed.

>

> Their preparation, conditioning, and focus is better than ever and all of the former black magic of what made up a good player can now be explained with data backed science. I really only think the one's upset with how the game has changed are those folks who's games have stagnated or regressed despite all of the technology at their hands, so it's easier to get mad at the pros and point fingers than accept the reality of their own game.

 

The distance advances are almost entirely due to equipment changes. And you may be one of the best 2% of golfers in the world but 98% of golfers don't hit their 3-woods anywhere near 280 or their 5-irons 220. The gap between recreational golfers and pros had always been large and has gotten larger because of equipment advances. People upset with how the pro game has changed are those who used to enjoy seeing the best golfers in the world have to work shots to get in best position for their next shots, who used to have to consider how to play a par-5, and who used to have to hit long irons into certain par-4s. And who are getting bored watching driver-wedge on every par-4 and going for every par-5 in two.

[bladehunter]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> >

> > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

>

> I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

 

To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

 

SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

[Divot2]

No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

[Krt22]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > >

> > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> >

> > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

>

> To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

>

> SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

 

But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

[airjammer]

 

Only Jack has enough balls make a retro ball required for his tournament as a audience marketing test.

[LICC]

> @Divot2 said:

> No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

 

It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

[Shilgy]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> I agree 100% with Adam Scott. Tour golf has gotten out of hand, even boring. Tour stop courses need to be designed or set up in such a manner, ALL touring pros are forced to challenge themselves off the tee and from the rough, instead, the PGA coddles tour players by making them feel invincible, and make decisions to satisfy sponsors. The media mouths were more excited than many of us watching yesterday. I love golf but didn't watch most of the BMW because it was nearly boring. Not much in the way of actual shot-making, like Tiger, used to show us.

>

> Yesterday, I had to laugh watching tour guys use 4 and 5 iron to hit moon-shots on that 248-yard Par 3, and reaching 600+ yard Par 5 in two and the second club was an iron or 3 wood. The PGA tour leadership is slowing making the professional aspect of the game look silly. These days the only people that remain fascinated by pros going 22 under and hitting 300+ drives on a 7700-yard course are people that don't understand the lengths to which the tour goes to create "these guys are good."

 

What exactly about the course setup enabled them to reach the 600 yard plus par five in two? What part of the course setup enable them to "4 and 5 iron to hit moon-shots on that 248-yard Par 3". Since you are blaming the tour setup guys what did they do incorrectly?

[Shilgy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > >

> > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> >

> > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

>

> To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

>

> SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

 

Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Divot2 said:

> > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

>

> It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

 

It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

[JAMH03]

> @tiderider said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

>

> this ... pros exploit the technology to a much greater degree ... also is a bit pricey to have subsystems on greens the way augusta does if you want to guarantee firm/fast ...

>

> and while lengthening might not be the only answer, it's part of it ... the pga courses probably need to be 8000 yards ...

>

> not sure there's a solution to the problem ... the head size/tech specs have been set with drivers and balls ... might just be time for new courses to pop up ...

 

8000 yards doesn't make sense though...

[Divot2]

> @LICC said:

> > @Divot2 said:

> > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

>

> It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

 

But we’re past Persimmion woods and balata balls. Also they will still be longer than most and still having this non sense discussion about it being too long cause 80% of the field can’t keep up. They will still pick apart courses after some time with whatever equipment they have.

[LICC]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > >

> > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> >

> > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> >

> > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

>

> Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

 

Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Divot2 said:

> > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> >

> > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

>

> It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

 

It wouldn't be less than that. They would be at least 15-20% shorter with driver than they are today. The stats and evidence are clear. And if distances were similar to what they were before the equipment boom, the dynamic between the long and shorter hitters would be the same as it was then.

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

>

> Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

 

The essence of golf is to get the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible. Always has, always will be. There is no portion of the scorecard to denote which club was used, what the shot shape was, or anything of that sort.

[LICC]

> @Divot2 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Divot2 said:

> > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> >

> > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

>

> But we’re past Persimmion woods and balata balls. Also they will still be longer than most and still having this non sense discussion about it being too long cause 80% of the field can’t keep up. They will still pick apart courses after some time with whatever equipment they have.

 

Correct. The greater distances are due to modern equipment.

[Shilgy]

> @LICC said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

>

> Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

 

Like baseball? Bottom line is the pros do not score the way they do just because they are long. We have post after post claiming that they and many others on this board are as long as the pros. It still takes tons of skill to shoot 7 under day after day.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/mlb-baseballs-old-timers-decry-state-of-the-modern-game/ar-AAG134s?li=BBnba9I

[LICC]

> @JAMH03 said:

> > @tiderider said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

> >

> > this ... pros exploit the technology to a much greater degree ... also is a bit pricey to have subsystems on greens the way augusta does if you want to guarantee firm/fast ...

> >

> > and while lengthening might not be the only answer, it's part of it ... the pga courses probably need to be 8000 yards ...

> >

> > not sure there's a solution to the problem ... the head size/tech specs have been set with drivers and balls ... might just be time for new courses to pop up ...

>

> 8000 yards doesn't make sense though...

 

Actually the courses would have to be 9000 yards, which isn't going to happen.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

> >

> > Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

>

> The essence of golf is to get the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible. Always has, always will be. There is no portion of the scorecard to denote which club was used, what the shot shape was, or anything of that sort.

 

Do you think that is all there is to the essence of playing golf? That it is the same as cornhole? Or has golf always involved strategic decisions, angles, shots shapes, etc.?

[LICC]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

> >

> > Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

>

> Like baseball? Bottom line is the pros do not score the way they do just because they are long. We have post after post claiming that they and many others on this board are as long as the pros. It still takes tons of skill to shoot 7 under day after day.

>

> https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/mlb-baseballs-old-timers-decry-state-of-the-modern-game/ar-AAG134s?li=BBnba9I

 

How many golfers as a percentage are as long as the pros? Maybe 0.10%

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Divot2 said:

> > > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> > >

> > > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

> >

> > It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

>

> It wouldn't be less than that. They would be at least 15-20% shorter with driver than they are today. The stats and evidence are clear. And if distances were similar to what they were before the equipment boom, the dynamic between the long and shorter hitters would be the same as it was then.

 

Rickie's current avg carry is 291.5. Here he carries a persimmon 275. That is less than 10% difference. But I agree, the dynamic would bet the same. The longer guys would still typically be the one's winning.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.2018.html

 

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/1/12/video-rickie-tests-a-persimmon-driver-on-trackman.html

[bladehunter]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > >

> > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> >

> > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> >

> > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

>

> Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

 

Come on man. You know that your analogy is incorrect or incomplete because the equipment has changed. Yes the guys are fast and strong. Just like runners are faster. But the equipment mostly hasn’t changed. Spikes are better. But we’re talking .2 .3 of a second better. Maybe. Golf hasn’t become easier due to better conditioning alone. It’s not apples to apples.