Adam Scott on why driving is no longer a skill in pro golf

[disco111]

Here is the crux of the situation.................it's the overall equipment. Yesterday watching JT on 16, a dogleg left with yardage at 476. JT hits 3 wood cut over the left corner to middle of the fairway. Has 180 to the pin and hits an 8 iron, which he holes it. Back in the day, I played to a 2 with the balata ball and persimmon woods. That drive for me back then was all I could hit and I could really move the ball back then. That second shot of 180 was all of a 5 iron for me and even with today's equipment, it still would be a 5 or even a 4. It's a heck of a lot easier to hit an 8 than a 4 iron. Another example is that par 3 over the water that was 178 yards. Guys were all hitting 8 and some a 9 iron. I offer these as a reference to the state of the game. The genie is out of the bottle and it's not going back in. I have no idea as to what may be coming for the game, player or equipment wise, but to say the least it will be interesting.

[farmer]

Doing a massive industry reset because a tiny, tiny subset of golfers hit the ball "too far" would be absurd.

[Holy Moses]

You can change all the Tour courses which is costly and hurts the people who play on those courses the other 51 weeks a year. Or you can give the pros a more difficult to control ball or a smaller driver head. The latter seems easier to do and doesn’t affect the rest of the people who will play those courses. Or just come to accept that this is the modern game.

[gvogel]

> @golfandfishing said:

> The TPC style of design has contributed almost as much to the phenomenon as the ball/driver combo. All of these courses have super wide fairways, little rough, and vast amounts of open space to accommodate crowds, vendors, grandstands and everything else that comes along with a tour event. Even if TPC isn’t in the name, the course has been designed or renovated to accommodate it. This has taken all of the fear out of the tee ball and long approach shot. If a player misses 6 fairways per round, he gets a drop once, has to play for safety once and has a clean lie and clear path to the flag 4 times. Being wild off the tee just isn’t a penalty any more. The once or twice per tournament that a player has to take a penalty drop or pitch out sideways isn’t a deterrent to the advantage of every par 5 being reachable in 2 or the 6 wedge approaches available every round if they just blast away with driver. If there was real fear for a miss you would see equipment being switched out and swing speeds come down a bit. As it is now, they are free to bomb away 14 times every round so they have groomed 100% max effort swings to be their stock move. You will see this dialed back if the result of their 6 missed fairways every round were flip flopped to 1 clear shot, 4 pitch out or unplayable and 1 with options that require skill and experience to pull off.

>

> But we won’t see that, the pga tour is a circus and events need to be able to accommodate 25,000 - 110,000 people per day. Add that to the player outrage we see when the rough is thick and you have a product that won’t sell. The time of the golf we see on tv being relatable to what we all play has passed, and the players will never allow it to return.

 

Might as well just go fishing then.

[gvogel]

> @"Holy Moses" said:

> You can change all the Tour courses which is costly and hurts the people who play on those courses the other 51 weeks a year. Or you can give the pros a more difficult to control ball or a smaller driver head. The latter seems easier to do and doesn’t affect the rest of the people who will play those courses. Or just come to accept that this is the modern game.

 

It is going to be interesting when the USGA and R&A issue the distance report this fall.

 

I think it's time for bifurcation. Heck, I played with hickories for 5 years. Talk about bifurcation.

[Golfjack]

> @"Santiago Golf" said:

> Option 1) New Golf ball that flies shorter, that really doesnt fix the problem

> Option 2) Long Rough, doglegs/pinch fairways in to force irons off the tee on longish

> Option 3) who cares

 

Yeah you are part of the problem too, making golfers better. need to stop teaching these good golfers. /s

 

[airjammer]

> @Golfjack said:

> > @"Santiago Golf" said:

> > Option 1) New Golf ball that flies shorter, that really doesnt fix the problem

> > Option 2) Long Rough, doglegs/pinch fairways in to force irons off the tee on longish

> > Option 3) who cares

>

> Yeah you are part of the problem too, making golfers better. need to stop teaching these good golfers. /s

>

 

He absolutely is part of the problem? And if they made the ball spin a lot more he would have a lot more business as well.

 

 

[disco111]

> @farmer said:

> Doing a massive industry reset because a tiny, tiny subset of golfers hit the ball "too far" would be absurd.

 

It's really more than a tiny,tiny subset. All the young and upcoming players pro's and am's alike are hitting far. I play against young guys who are working with families, who make a joke out of par 5's and just about most par 4's. The only difference is they are not consistent, but that still does not negate the fact that they can hit it really far because of the equipment. The course we play has opted to try to negate the effect of the long ball by growing to rough to at least 4 inches. Sadly, that only affects the older guys that can't swing as hard. I don't have the answer, but the game can't go on just plowing up ground to make the courses longer. The cost ultimately finds it's way down to the everyday golfers.

[diablocrusher]

One aspect that gets overlooked in this whole debate is the pga tour stops at these courses once a year. They can’t design a course so extremely difficult that the normal every day golfer can’t play and enjoy it.

Pga level courses also typically have a high price tag for greens fees as well. Membership and public rates at these places is a premium price so the fun factor has to be there as well or no one will play it.

You can’t blame the course designers because someone else is paying them to build something.

[widow-maker]

The game has become physical fitness and technology for the modern Tour pro. Aside from that, they do work on their short games a ton. The USGA let it all get away from them because they tend to move at glacier speed when it comes to recognizing change is needed. Too many people on a committee and they can never come to an agreement on the major changes that were needed.

 

When I played Medinah 40 years ago it was a pretty stiff test of golf. Lots of long irons and pretty tricky putting because it was difficult to get those irons close to the hole. Now they hit 8 and 9 irons into holes that were built for long irons. The greens are soft, holding, and putting extremely true and they all have green books that tell them exactly what the putt is going to do. Unless it's a Major or the Ryder Cup, there's a sameness to the events that just doesn't stir a whole lot emotion for the average golf fan.

 

The players are great at what they do, but it seems like these -20 scores are too easy to come by. The risk/reward in golf has become too much reward and not enough risk. The answer is probably a combination of all the things people are touching on in this thread but figuring out how much of each solution should be added is probably impossible for the twits running the USGA and as long as the PGA Tour is swimming in money, they're not going to be into altering the status quo...and when they do realize there's a solution needed it may be too late. Future viewers of golf growing up as kids today are going to be much more difficult to lock in for 4-6 hours at a time if the viewing experience isn't compelling.

[Soloman1]

This is exactly why Nicklaus’ record is so amazing, considering he could sometimes hit a 300 yard drive with balata and persimmon.

 

Bifurcation is not such a bad thing. No aluminum bats in MLB. Standard balls in tennis, basketball and (maybe... it’s up for debate) baseball.

 

Let amateurs play play the 55 gallon barrels on a stick drivers and low spinning balls.

 

I don’t think a higher spinning, tour-spec ball would affect golf ball sales at all. The USGA, R&A and the tours are stuck in quicksand, They’re like a collection of Lord Kelvin’s and some of his dogmatic pronouncements, such as, “Heavier-then-air flying machines are impossible.”

[Wooderson]

I earlier posted that a reduction in club head size would help but the more I've thought about it I'm not sure. These guys are bombing 160-180cc 3 woods 300 and with more accuracy. Y'all figure it out. Good luck.

[Wdwfreak]

Sick of the narrow fairway, fast firm greens argument. Tricking out Merion to something that barely resembled the regular course is not the solution.

 

It's clear it's massive drivers that are the easiest club to hit in your bag and straight flying solid core golf balls are the issue. When you're nervous on the first tee you shouldn't hit driver because it's the easiest to hit.

 

We can't keep changing the course without touching technology. Wood bats and changes in baseball make it so the Red Sox can still play in Fenway imagine if like golf that stadium was defunct and the Red Sox had to keep building bigger ballparks to accommodate changing technology...

[LICC]

> @Soloman1 said:

> This is exactly why Nicklaus’ record is so amazing, considering he could sometimes hit a 300 yard drive with balata and persimmon.

>

> Bifurcation is not such a bad thing. No aluminum bats in MLB. Standard balls in tennis, basketball and (maybe... it’s up for debate) baseball.

>

> Let amateurs play play the 55 gallon barrels on a stick drivers and low spinning balls.

>

> I don’t think a higher spinning, tour-spec ball would affect golf ball sales at all. The USGA, R&A and the tours are stuck in quicksand, They’re like a collection of Lord Kelvin’s and some of his dogmatic pronouncements, such as, “Heavier-then-air flying machines are impossible.”

 

100% agree with every word of this. Before the distance explosion began in the 1990s, 7000 yards was a long course for the pros. They are at least 30% longer now, so a course would need to be over 9000 yards to pose similar challenges. If the pros had to play a pro driver or pro ball that reined in distance, I don’t think recreational golfers would care that they are using different equipment. And the courses the pros play should be set up to provide more shot shaping challenges.

[bscinstnct]

Not sure why he is complaining. His accuracy has been ok to crappy over the years.

 

And even then it’s his driving that makes him competitive considering he is pretty much always negative strokes gained putting.

[lowheel]

> @Shilgy said:

> The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

 

meh it takes 2-3 weeks to grow good rough. its simple from 290-330 make the rough a penalty. doesnt have to be every week just more often

[Llortamaisey]

Heck, let’s just go back to persimmon in the PGA Tour.

[airjammer]

> @lowheel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

>

> meh it takes 2-3 weeks to grow good rough. its simple from 290-330 make the rough a penalty. doesnt have to be every week just more often

 

Long hitters don’t need to have longer rough in their landing area..they shouldn’t be punished for being able to hit it far. Everyone should be punished for being crooked.

 

The tour is selling distance..they have control over how the courses are configured in many cases. They set them up to have the longer hitters hit over bunkers while the average guys have to hit 3wds to stay short. On top of that the big hitters hit the downslope that is created when you have a high lipped bunker.

It ends up being sometimes a 50 yard difference and there wasn’t any risk for them at all.

 

Courses/memberships that actually want a tour event there could easily add or lengthen bunkers that wouldn’t affect the play of the members what so ever.

[Need4spd]

Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

 

Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

 

Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

 

I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

[buckeye440]

I still use my 975j which I think is 300 cc. I have never been able to swing the 400cc plus clubs. I am no greater driver or golfer for that matter but still get ocassional 300 yd drives so I am sure the pros would bomb it too.

[disco111]

> @Need4spd said:

> Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

>

It's far from evolution, there are plenty of guys on tour that are not poster boys for a gym and they can flat out pound it way out there. I bet that many wrx'ers play with guys that fit that description and those guys can launch it also. It's the equipment, plain and simple. There's always been long hitters, even with the old balata and persimmons, but there's far more guys hitting it long with today's stuff. Look at JT, all 5'9" and 160 lbs soaking wet and it's not his physical stature, it's the equipment.

Granted, nothing is going to change, but it can't continue to evolve equipment wise past where were at.

>

 

 

[snizzle]

> @Shilgy said:

> The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

 

I've heard this too but for the big tournaments played at courses such as Medinah they should do it. Most die hard golf fans do not want to watch bomb and gouge golf with the biggest names in the playoffs. The course they are playing on the Korn Ferry this week requires more strategy than how Medinah is playing.

[snizzle]

> @oikos1 said:

> Lol. The machine isn't rolling back anything.

>

> "Golf club manufacturers report robust sales in 2018"

>

> https://golfoklahoma.org/golf-club-manufacturers-report-robust-sales-in-2018/

>

> "For this year and knowing club and ball sales nominally mirror the U.S. economy if healthy growth continues equipment sales should increase also. Using driver sales as an indicator we can make some generalizations.

>

> Callaway is touting the early success of the Epic Flash line and Acushnet has introduced new versions of the bestselling Titleist Pro V1 and Pro V1x plus had good acceptance of the TS line of metalwoods. We are also seeing a broadening of the separation in price levels. Flagship drivers for Callaway and TaylorMade were increased in price $30 and $50 respectively over 2018 models while Titleist kept their pricing of the new TS drivers the same.

>

> PING easily set the record for year to year price increases with the 2019 G410 driver selling for $500 or $100 higher than the comparable 2018 model."

 

Sadly this is true. As long as the big boys are selling their wares nothing will change.

[Shilgy]

> @disco111 said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> It's far from evolution, there are plenty of guys on tour that are not poster boys for a gym and they can flat out pound it way out there. I bet that many wrx'ers play with guys that fit that description and those guys can launch it also. It's the equipment, plain and simple. There's always been long hitters, even with the old balata and persimmons, but there's far more guys hitting it long with today's stuff. Look at JT, all 5'9" and 160 lbs soaking wet and it's not his physical stature, it's the equipment.

> Granted, nothing is going to change, but it can't continue to evolve equipment wise past where were at.

> >

>

>

 

So you think JT would be a short hitter if the equipment was changed?

You were spot on when you said there were long hitters in the past and there are far more long hitters today. And yes the equipment helps. But you could roll the clubs and balls back to balata and persimmon specs and there would still be more long hitters than in the past. They flat out swing faster. Yes, you could roll back the tech so that drives went 20-30 yards shorter. But you will not make them play scared and back off on aggressive shot making.

[Shilgy]

> @snizzle said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > The flip side is that the tour boys play at a course once a year-if that. The members or public have to be able to play, and enjoy, the course the rest of the year.

>

> I've heard this too but for the big tournaments played at courses such as Medinah they should do it. Most die hard golf fans do not want to watch bomb and gouge golf with the biggest names in the playoffs. The course they are playing on the Korn Ferry this week requires more strategy than how Medinah is playing.

 

Have you watched the event this week? For those saying they should add more rough how much? The event I'm watching was long thick lush rough tee to green.

[DatSliceDoe]

He is correct. Fix the course setups or they'll be forced to roll the ball or driver back eventually.

[el_b00t]

Rollback drivers, everyone plays the same ball, and let the rough grow in certain areas to penalize the long hitters that are off-target. I believe they touched on this in the Trap Draw podcast "commissioner for a day".

[Need4spd]

> @disco111 said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> It's far from evolution, there are plenty of guys on tour that are not poster boys for a gym and they can flat out pound it way out there. I bet that many wrx'ers play with guys that fit that description and those guys can launch it also. It's the equipment, plain and simple. There's always been long hitters, even with the old balata and persimmons, but there's far more guys hitting it long with today's stuff. Look at JT, all 5'9" and 160 lbs soaking wet and it's not his physical stature, it's the equipment.

> Granted, nothing is going to change, but it can't continue to evolve equipment wise past where were at.

> >

>

>

 

It’s basically the definition of evolution. Equipment “evolves” and improves just like everything else, including the players. That’s what happens in life, things “evolve” and get better as times goes on. I personally think music is about the only thing that doesn’t necessarily get better with time. LOL

 

But in golf, it’s true in virtually every facet of the game. Equipment, physical fitness, instruction, agronomy, the list goes on. Listen, I like the “good ole days” as much as anyone, I really do. I chronically romanticize everything when I think about the past. I just went through a divorce and believe me when I tell you that it would be much easier for me to get over if I didn’t do that. In general though, most things really do improve. This is exactly why I dont understand why poeple dislike change so much.

 

I’m fine with the limits on technology in golf being left where they are. This idea of rolling back equipment is truly mind boggling to me though.

 

[cxx]

There are still some venues used by the tour that don't favor the long ball. Hilton Head comes to mind. There used to be more tour venues like that but most have been displaced, mostly by TPC courses. These are owned by the tour, built to their specs which is part of the problem.

[J13]

Increasing the length of courses makes golf more expensive and it's unsustainable. With that said I think Scott's wrong in his assumption that "they" haven't figured it out yet. "They" figured it out long ago and it's the reason the purses are what they are. Again, "they" know exactly what they're doing.