Adam Scott on why driving is no longer a skill in pro golf

[bladehunter]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

> >

> > Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

>

> Like baseball? Bottom line is the pros do not score the way they do just because they are long. We have post after post claiming that they and many others on this board are as long as the pros. It still takes tons of skill to shoot 7 under day after day.

>

> https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/mlb-baseballs-old-timers-decry-state-of-the-modern-game/ar-AAG134s?li=BBnba9I

 

So are you saying it’s mostly due to putting / shortgame skill ?

[Krt22]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

>

> Come on man. You know that your analogy is incorrect or incomplete because the equipment has changed. Yes the guys are fast and strong. Just like runners are faster. But the equipment mostly hasn’t changed. Spikes are better. But we’re talking .2 .3 of a second better. Maybe. Golf hasn’t become easier due to better conditioning alone. It’s not apples to apples.

 

Yeah but .2-.3 seconds at that speed is huge. Running isn't an equipment intensive sport, but they certainly do use tech to maximize their own bodies as well as their strides. Same with baseball, they use launch monitors and optimize impact mechanics just like golfers do.

[LICC]

His average carry is not what he would normally carry with his driver. That is probably 300+

[bladehunter]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > >

> > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > >

> > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> >

> > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> >

> > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

>

> But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

 

 

Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

 

Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

 

Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Divot2 said:

> > > > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> > > >

> > > > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

> > >

> > > It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

> >

> > It wouldn't be less than that. They would be at least 15-20% shorter with driver than they are today. The stats and evidence are clear. And if distances were similar to what they were before the equipment boom, the dynamic between the long and shorter hitters would be the same as it was then.

>

> Rickie's current avg carry is 291.5. Here he carries a persimmon 275. That is less than 10% difference. But I agree, the dynamic would bet the same. The longer guys would still typically be the one's winning.

>

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.2018.html

>

> https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/1/12/video-rickie-tests-a-persimmon-driver-on-trackman.html

 

His average carry is not what he would normally carry with his driver. That is probably 300+

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Divot2 said:

> > > > > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> > > > >

> > > > > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

> > > >

> > > > It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

> > >

> > > It wouldn't be less than that. They would be at least 15-20% shorter with driver than they are today. The stats and evidence are clear. And if distances were similar to what they were before the equipment boom, the dynamic between the long and shorter hitters would be the same as it was then.

> >

> > Rickie's current avg carry is 291.5. Here he carries a persimmon 275. That is less than 10% difference. But I agree, the dynamic would bet the same. The longer guys would still typically be the one's winning.

> >

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.2018.html

> >

> > https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/1/12/video-rickie-tests-a-persimmon-driver-on-trackman.html

>

> His average carry is not what he would normally carry with his driver. That is probably 300+

 

Lol what? Now you are just grasping straws. How in the heck is is his average carry not his "normal". That is literally what an average is. The PGA tour typically gathers 2 drives per day, one into the wind, one with wind at the back, on a hole where players pretty much all hit driver. If he was going to hit a drive on a calm day on a flat course, that is pretty darn close to what you can expect

[bladehunter]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

> >

> > Come on man. You know that your analogy is incorrect or incomplete because the equipment has changed. Yes the guys are fast and strong. Just like runners are faster. But the equipment mostly hasn’t changed. Spikes are better. But we’re talking .2 .3 of a second better. Maybe. Golf hasn’t become easier due to better conditioning alone. It’s not apples to apples.

>

> Yeah but .2-.3 seconds at that speed is huge. Running isn't an equipment intensive sport, but they certainly do use tech to maximize their own bodies as well as their strides. Same with baseball, they use launch monitors and optimize impact mechanics just like golfers do.

 

It is big. I know first hand. But. It’s not big enough to change the makeup of how a sprinter thinks and moves.

 

Golf today is not played how it was mid 90s. I’m not so much afraid of where it is today. IM afraid of where it’s going. Is it 300 yard par 3s ? Is it guys with 5-6 wedges in the bag ?

[Krt22]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

>

>

> Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

>

> Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

>

> Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

 

I don't agree as you have ignored the one aspect of the equation that has also changed, the players themselves. Rolling things back would disproportionately hurt the shorter guys in this day and age IMHO.

[bladehunter]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

> >

> >

> > Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

> >

> > Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

> >

> > Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

>

> I don't agree as you have ignored the one aspect of the equation that has also changed, the players themselves. Rolling things back would disproportionately hurt the shorter guys in this day and age IMHO.

 

Are you taking short pros or local players ? If local I’m pro bifurcation. So they can use whatever they want for net events.

 

If pros I’m not sure how so ? I guess I do see it because I believe that longer guys would see their true full advantage. But. I think that would be right and natural. And a reset of a wrong long overdue to be overturned.

[Krt22]

Im talking about short pros but that would absolutely apply to short ams as well. I'm anti-bifurcation because one of the real essences of golf (and the handicap system in general) is that anyone can play the same course, equipment, and with enough time/effort shoot similar (net) scores. Handicapping pros such that some nostalgic older gen golfers can see a better parallel between their game and the game the pro's plays doesn't seem to solve anything and if anything would only accelerate the downfall of golf

[Divot2]

How about if you don’t like it, don’t watch it.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Divot2 said:

> > > > > > > No matter what, it still takes 120+ swing speed to get 180 mph ball speeds. The driver does not swing itself, it’s the player that learns and maximizes his bodies potential or Gods gift to crest that speed. I’m sorry some have it and some don’t. Justin Thomas is one of the smallest pound for pound guys on tour but is up there within the top of driver distance. Phil is old compared to average tour age but is still swinging 120/180. Finau uses, it seems like 50% of his backswing and is 120/180... It’s the player that makes the club and has figured out how to use their body for those speeds. Driving distance is the player and some just have more!!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's all relative. If Justin Thomas or Tony Finau were hitting a persimmon wood driver and a balata ball they would hit it 15-20% less distance than they do today.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's actually less than that. Either way, they would still be hitting it well past the short knockers. I know lots of older golfers are completely enamored by the "skill" players, but I would not be surprised if an equipment roll back would have the exact opposite effect, that the shorter skill guys would actually be more likely to lose their card than gain some ground on the bombers.

> > > >

> > > > It wouldn't be less than that. They would be at least 15-20% shorter with driver than they are today. The stats and evidence are clear. And if distances were similar to what they were before the equipment boom, the dynamic between the long and shorter hitters would be the same as it was then.

> > >

> > > Rickie's current avg carry is 291.5. Here he carries a persimmon 275. That is less than 10% difference. But I agree, the dynamic would bet the same. The longer guys would still typically be the one's winning.

> > >

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.2018.html

> > >

> > > https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/1/12/video-rickie-tests-a-persimmon-driver-on-trackman.html

> >

> > His average carry is not what he would normally carry with his driver. That is probably 300+

>

> Lol what? Now you are just grasping straws. How in the heck is is his average carry not his "normal". That is literally what an average is. The PGA tour typically gathers 2 drives per day, one into the wind, one with wind at the back, on a hole where players pretty much all hit driver. If he was going to hit a drive on a calm day on a flat course, that is pretty darn close to what you can expect

 

Were they using balata balls when he hit the persimmon driver? If not, knock off another ten yards.

 

The average drive is not how far he would hit it going for distance. It’s an average of random holes that aren’t necessarily the best driving holes.

 

 

[Krt22]

Thank you again for proving my point, that was a big down hill hole, not uncommon to carry it further, but not what happens on every single drive. Ball speed was 1mph above his average of 174. On a flat hole that ball simply isn't going to carry 300+. You do actually play golf correct and realize that elevation and wind dramatically change how far the ball goes, right?

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > >

> > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > >

> > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > >

> > > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

> >

> >

> > Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

> >

> > Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

> >

> > Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

>

> I don't agree as you have ignored the one aspect of the equation that has also changed, the players themselves. Rolling things back would disproportionately hurt the shorter guys in this day and age IMHO.

 

Almost all the distance advancement has come from the modern equipment. Don’t kid yourself otherwise

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> Im talking about short pros but that would absolutely apply to short ams as well. I'm anti-bifurcation because one of the real essences of golf (and the handicap system in general) is that anyone can play the same course, equipment, and with enough time/effort shoot similar (net) scores. Handicapping pros such that some nostalgic older gen golfers can see a better parallel between their game and the game the pro's plays doesn't seem to solve anything and if anything would only accelerate the downfall of golf

 

 

Recreational golfers already don’t play the same exact course as the pros because hardly anyone plays from the pro tees.

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > > >

> > > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > > >

> > > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > > >

> > > > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

> > >

> > >

> > > Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

> > >

> > > Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

> > >

> > > Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

> >

> > I don't agree as you have ignored the one aspect of the equation that has also changed, the players themselves. Rolling things back would disproportionately hurt the shorter guys in this day and age IMHO.

>

> Almost all the distance advancement has come from the modern equipment. Don’t kid yourself otherwise

 

No, it does not. Don't kid yourself otherwise. You blatantly are ignoring the statistics and don't seem to understand how the environment influences the ball, so I am not sure how you can draw such strong conclusions

[Krt22]

I think I have a better solution, the tour should only televise shots that are up hill or into the wind!

[Divot2]

I think the majority wants it left alone. Leave it up to the minority, to always wanna fix something that isn’t broken and make it worse.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> Thank you again for proving my point, that was a big down hill hole, not uncommon to carry it further, but not what happens on every single drive. Ball speed was 1mph above his average of 174. On a flat hole that ball simply isn't going to carry 300+. You do actually play golf correct and realize that elevation and wind dramatically change how far the ball goes, right?

 

That is not a BIG downhill hole. I have played that course.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > > > >

> > > > > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

> > > >

> > > > Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

> > > >

> > > > Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

> > >

> > > I don't agree as you have ignored the one aspect of the equation that has also changed, the players themselves. Rolling things back would disproportionately hurt the shorter guys in this day and age IMHO.

> >

> > Almost all the distance advancement has come from the modern equipment. Don’t kid yourself otherwise

>

> No, it does not. Don't kid yourself otherwise. You blatantly are ignoring the statistics and don't seem to understand how the environment influences the ball, so I am not sure how you can draw such strong conclusions

 

The environment? Do you mean more rollout on fairways? You are scattershot all over this discussion.

[Krt22]

No, we are talking purely about carry. You were the one who made the assertion these lots of guys routinely carry it 330 which just isnt true and you think a few cherry picked shots somehow validates that claim, but it simply does not. Wind and elevation play a big part in those glory shots the network likes to hype up on TV. Not a scattershot at all, I have maintained the same exact positions the entire time (which is backed up by the stats the PGA tour records, trackman data, etc). At this point I am done with the conversation because it's clear you aren't actually driven by data and prefer to stick to your own off-base opinions.

[Oliver Klozoff]

He's right.

 

Winning score at Harbor Town. -12.

Cut at Harbor Town. Even par.

Length 7000 yards

 

Winning score at Medinah -25

No cut, but assuredly it would have been under par.

Length 7650 yards

 

Difference. Doglegs and overhanging trees.

[Shilgy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > > > >

> > > > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > > > >

> > > > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> > > >

> > > > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > > > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

> > >

> > > Running faster doesn't change the strategy or essence of sprinting. Blasting the ball massively greater distances than before does.

> >

> > Like baseball? Bottom line is the pros do not score the way they do just because they are long. We have post after post claiming that they and many others on this board are as long as the pros. It still takes tons of skill to shoot 7 under day after day.

> >

> > https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/mlb-baseballs-old-timers-decry-state-of-the-modern-game/ar-AAG134s?li=BBnba9I

>

> So are you saying it’s mostly due to putting / shortgame skill ?

 

No, they are better at everything. Not just longer. You are a self admitted good ball striker. But I would bet that at every distance virtually every tour pro is better than you. And definitely putt better!

And chip and pitch better. And have better course management.

It's not by huge margins in every aspect of the game, perhaps, but a half stroke saved here and a half there adds up to a few strokes saved per round.

Everything is under such a microscope these days it's easy to forget how good they are. Back in the day folks thought Hogan never missed a green because they read how great he was. Now days folks think Webb Simpson shanks every other shot because they saw him do it the one time they watched.

Driving distance has gone up a lot obviously. Part of the reason is, of course, the equipment and part is players are taught better how to swing fast-and still be relatively straight. The metal wood had more to do with change than the ball. In 1980 the longest on tour averaged 274.3 and 40 year old Jack averaged 269. In 1999-before the Pro V-there were 78 players that averaged over that 274.3 number led by Daly at 305.

Much like baseball the mentality and strategy changed. Players used to plod their way around the course making sure they hit fairways. Heck, I still have a tendency to think that way. Now? It's hit it down there as far as you can , find it (and on tour they have help with that but they always did) and hit it close.

[Titleist99]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > >

> > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> >

> > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

>

> To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

>

> SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

 

They said the same thing about basketball, "the dunk is killing the game", "we need to raise the basket", then they said the three point line needs to be pushed back, etc... My point is that Basketball is more popular than ever.....the sky isn't falling, golf will be just fine.

[Krt22]

Good point Shigly, easy to point the finger at the clubs, but the only ones that really have tons of tech are the drivers. JT is a skinny dude who still plays old school blades, so there wasnt any tech helping that 180 yard hole out with an 8i. They utilize the tech to optimize their mechanics/distance/launch conditions and use data/statistics/SG metrics to not only attack the course but focus their practice routines such that they can maximize the time they have to prepare and make sure all facets of their game are sharp. Long story short, players are not only stronger/faster/smarter than they ever have been, but they also can use the data available to hone their game to focus on putting scoring above all else.

[Shilgy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > But what can you really do to change it? The reality is the game of golf changed, and regardless of the equipment the longest hitters will consistently be at the top of the leader board. Hitting less club than the guy next to you always has and always will be a big advantage. But do you want to see the short knockers roll up hybrids onto par 4s ?

>

>

> Changing it is easy. Ball and driver head size. Dramatic driver head size shrinkage. Like half size of now.

>

> Short knockers would be same as before. Let’s not forget there is a perfect test case to see how it could be. The past.

>

> Look. I know $ will keep it from happening. Beer sales and bro ticket sales would go down if they had to shout “ bababoey” at 260 yard drivers. It’s the USgas fault for letting it get to this point. So I’m not arguing from a place of thinking there’s a chance. Just from the place of “ in a perfect world “.

 

To what size driver? 1998 Callaway Big Bertha Was Bird was the hot driver. 195cc. And the long players were approaching 300 yard average.

195cc!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Titleist99]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Johnny Biarritz" said:

> > > > > > 600 is a bit high for a par 4...but not much too high. Probably 570 or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > These guys hit 5-irons 230. They hit fairway woods 280-290. Anything under 600 yards, unless the hole somehow forces a lay-up, is a par-4 for these guys.

> > > >

> > > > I ask again, what is your point? Why does it matter? Does the player with the fewest strokes not win every time? You covert a few more par 5s to 4s and a few 4s to 3s, guess what, the longest guys are still likely to win week in and week out. And rolling back the ball/equipment will only make it harder for the short knockers

> > >

> > > To use an analogy. Suppose we shorten all mlb parks to 250 ft. We’d see 25-30 homers a game. And highest score would still win. But at that point is ceases to be baseball. And is instead a home run derby.

> > >

> > > SOme of us see golf as ceasing to be golf soon and instead becoming something else.

> >

> > Have the lengthed the 100m dash? Did the record for the mile get too fast so we lengthened the mile? Guys jump higher-has the hoop in basketball been raised?

> > Yes the game has ~~changed~~ evolved. All games do. Embrace it or be the old guy yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

>

> Come on man. You know that your analogy is incorrect or incomplete because the equipment has changed. Yes the guys are fast and strong. Just like runners are faster. But the equipment mostly hasn’t changed. Spikes are better. But we’re talking .2 .3 of a second better. Maybe. Golf hasn’t become easier due to better conditioning alone. It’s not apples to apples.

 

If it was as easy as going to Dick's Sporting Goods and buying one of those clubs that goes 300 yards....everybody would do it.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> No, we are talking purely about carry. You were the one who made the assertion these lots of guys routinely carry it 330 which just isnt true and you think a few cherry picked shots somehow validates that claim, but it simply does not. Wind and elevation play a big part in those glory shots the network likes to hype up on TV. Not a scattershot at all, I have maintained the same exact positions the entire time (which is backed up by the stats the PGA tour records, trackman data, etc). At this point I am done with the conversation because it's clear you aren't actually driven by data and prefer to stick to your own off-base opinions.

 

I said a dozen guys could carry 330. And they can. Fact. I said most distance gains compared to decades ago are from equipment. You said it’s due to the environment. That is a scattershot comment that makes no sense.

[Shilgy]

> @"Oliver Klozoff" said:

> He's right.

>

> Winning score at Harbor Town. -12.

> Cut at Harbor Town. Even par.

> Length 7000 yards

>

> Winning score at Medinah -25

> No cut, but assuredly it would have been under par.

> Length 7650 yards

>

> Difference. Doglegs and overhanging trees.

 

Don't forget the most important reasons. Soft course with no wind and a field of just the top 70 hottest and best players.

[LICC]

> @Krt22 said:

> Good point Shigly, easy to point the finger at the clubs, but the only ones that really have tons of tech are the drivers. JT is a skinny dude who still plays old school blades, so there wasnt any tech helping that 180 yard hole out with an 8i. They utilize the tech to optimize their mechanics/distance/launch conditions and use data/statistics/SG metrics to not only attack the course but focus their practice routines such that they can maximize the time they have to prepare and make sure all facets of their game are sharp. Long story short, players are not only stronger/faster/smarter than they ever have been, but they also can use the data available to hone their game to focus on putting scoring above all else.

 

 

Do you think that only drivers have had technological advancement in the last 30 years?