Adam Scott on why driving is no longer a skill in pro golf

[gvogel]

> @Need4spd said:

> Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

>

> Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

>

> Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

>

> I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

Well, that's one viewpoint. But Major League Baseball is still playing with wooden bats and a ball that is pretty much unchanged from 30 years ago. The fans like it that way. The fans like to compare modern players to historic players. The fans like a game where there there are singles and doubles, not all home runs. And major league baseball is trying to keep that type of game alive.

 

Major League Baseball does a better job of policing the players union. The PGA Tour has abrogated that responsibility to the USGA, and the USGA has done a very poor job of keeping the game the same for the best players. Maybe because the USGA likes the new, hotter equipment for themselves. Poor governance. At least baseball has it right. If the PGA Tour governing bodies had it right, they would have reigned in equipment years ago. But they won't because the players control the leadership - the convicts run the asylum. And so the PGA Tour lets the USGA make the rules. And the USGA rule like turtles. In baseball, the owners run the game, so they stay with wooden bats and the same ball. Better game.

[farmer]

In 1997, Tiger beat up Augusta playing a smallish driver with a steel shaft and a wound ball. In practice rounds hit driver, 8 iron into 15, so I guess we would need to go farther back than 1997. As N4S said, never going to happen.

[tiderider]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Well, that's one viewpoint. But Major League Baseball is still playing with wooden bats and a ball that is pretty much unchanged from 30 years ago. The fans like it that way. The fans like to compare modern players to historic players. The fans like a game where there there are singles and doubles, not all home runs. And major league baseball is trying to keep that type of game alive.

>

> Major League Baseball does a better job of policing the players union. The PGA Tour has abrogated that responsibility to the USGA, and the USGA has done a very poor job of keeping the game the same for the best players. Maybe because the USGA likes the new, hotter equipment for themselves. Poor governance. At least baseball has it right. If the PGA Tour governing bodies had it right, they would have reigned in equipment years ago. But they won't because the players control the leadership - the convicts run the asylum. And so the PGA Tour lets the USGA make the rules. And the USGA rule like turtles. In baseball, the owners run the game, so they stay with wooden bats and the same ball. Better game.

 

not relevant to the thread, but mlb is most certainly not trying to keep singles/doubles scoring alive ... and there's plenty of evidence that fans only care about the long ball ...

 

but i digress ... baseball is a neanderthal sport compared to golf ...

[bscinstnct]

> @farmer said:

> In 1997, Tiger beat up Augusta playing a smallish driver with a steel shaft and a wound ball. In practice rounds hit driver, 8 iron into 15, so I guess we would need to go farther back than 1997. As N4S said, never going to happen.

 

If they never invented graphite and modem ball

 

Tiger have like 50 majors.

 

 

[Johnny Biarritz]

> @Loki said:

> I'd like to see them play balata anyway. That was bifurcation back then so why are they worried about it now? Never played with anyone that played a balata

 

I'd rather not go back to balata. The Titlelist Professional or Tour Prestige with the urethane cover I'd be fine with. But it's not a good financial idea, for players, to go back to balata. I remember those balls...smiles, blisters, oblong after 2 or 3 holes. I'd rather not go back to that.

[dlygrisse]

Roll back COR. Huge mistake by USGA, the long hitters picked up 50 yards, the short hitter maybe 1/2 that.

Make the ball spin more off the driver. If the ball spun off the driver like it did with balata it would reduce the high flat bombs and make them work the ball and reduce carry and rollout.

You used to have to make a decision with the ball. Do I pick a ball with spin, or distance? Now you get both. Playing a soft cover ball should add 1000 rpms to the driver.

[Shilgy]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Well, that's one viewpoint. But Major League Baseball is still playing with wooden bats and a ball that is pretty much unchanged from 30 years ago. The fans like it that way. The fans like to compare modern players to historic players. The fans like a game where there there are singles and doubles, not all home runs. And major league baseball is trying to keep that type of game alive.

>

> Major League Baseball does a better job of policing the players union. The PGA Tour has abrogated that responsibility to the USGA, and the USGA has done a very poor job of keeping the game the same for the best players. Maybe because the USGA likes the new, hotter equipment for themselves. Poor governance. At least baseball has it right. If the PGA Tour governing bodies had it right, they would have reigned in equipment years ago. But they won't because the players control the leadership - the convicts run the asylum. And so the PGA Tour lets the USGA make the rules. And the USGA rule like turtles. In baseball, the owners run the game, so they stay with wooden bats and the same ball. Better game.

 

Gloves have changed dramatically.... Field condition has changed....,players are fitter faster and stronger (like all athletes)...... The whole method of playing the game has changed dramatically because of analytics.

But sure, baseball is unchanged.

\

All sports evolve in how they are played. And will continue to do so.

[ibradley]

> @Soloman1 said:

> This is exactly why Nicklaus’ record is so amazing, considering he could sometimes hit a 300 yard drive with balata and persimmon.

>

> Bifurcation is not such a bad thing. No aluminum bats in MLB. Standard balls in tennis, basketball and (maybe... it’s up for debate) baseball.

>

> Let amateurs play play the 55 gallon barrels on a stick drivers and low spinning balls.

>

> I don’t think a higher spinning, tour-spec ball would affect golf ball sales at all. The USGA, R&A and the tours are stuck in quicksand, They’re like a collection of Lord Kelvin’s and some of his dogmatic pronouncements, such as, “Heavier-then-air flying machines are impossible.”

 

The PGA Tour does not want bifurcation. They are in the entertainment business. Distance sells. I don't think the USGA or the R&A would would bifurcate without the agreement of the pro tours.

 

It's too bad in my opinion.

[Darth Putter]

Over to you Tiger...

 

[Need4spd]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Well, that's one viewpoint. But Major League Baseball is still playing with wooden bats and a ball that is pretty much unchanged from 30 years ago. The fans like it that way. The fans like to compare modern players to historic players. The fans like a game where there there are singles and doubles, not all home runs. And major league baseball is trying to keep that type of game alive.

>

> Major League Baseball does a better job of policing the players union. The PGA Tour has abrogated that responsibility to the USGA, and the USGA has done a very poor job of keeping the game the same for the best players. Maybe because the USGA likes the new, hotter equipment for themselves. Poor governance. At least baseball has it right. If the PGA Tour governing bodies had it right, they would have reigned in equipment years ago. But they won't because the players control the leadership - the convicts run the asylum. And so the PGA Tour lets the USGA make the rules. And the USGA rule like turtles. In baseball, the owners run the game, so they stay with wooden bats and the same ball. Better game.

 

To use your own words, that’s one viewpoint. I’m struggling to follow you a little though. Others have poked holes of their own in your comments, but I will just add that baseball never went to a metal bat and then back to wood. That’s the equivalent of what people are lobbying for here in golf. We’ve already given them 460cc drivers, solid core golf balls, etcetera, and now we’re going to take them away and literally go backwards? When and where on earth is that done?

 

[Soloman1]

It could be done anywhere on earth tomorrow.

[dciccoritti]

Ban the tee. Problem solved.

 


 

[youdamantiger]

> @Wooderson said:

> What I don't understand is why they won't roll things back a little? Go from 460cc to 400cc with the driver. What would be the harm in that? You could go a step further and bring the MOI limit back to 4500 or so. Max length of 45". Small changes in each parameter will add up to a noticeable difference. 8000 yard golf courses are not the answer. It's not smart fiscally.

 

Agreed. The key is that there is no magic bullet. No panacea that completely cures this ailment. It has to be a comprehensive, diversified treatment plan to get the patient back on his feet. Rolling back the driver to 400cc for professionals would be a start. But it's not just the driver that's the problem. When guys are hitting 9 irons 175 yards we've reached a real tipping point. Lots of folks don't want to hear this but it's the ball.

 

Mankind hasn't taken some giant evolutionary leap forward in the 50 years since Nicklaus and Palmer were on Tour and their biggest drives were 280. Analysis was done of Bobby Jones swing from his 1930 Grand Slam year and his clubhead speed was projected at 118mph. If you put the modern driver and ball in Jones's hands in his prime he would belt it as far as Justin Thomas. That's why Scott said that the Tour can't make a course long enough to test the pros. Even if you stretched a course out to 8,000 yards and guys have 192 into par fours instead of 102, they're just going to be hitting an 8 instead of a lob. Most any pro can take an 8 iron and stick it within 25 feet of the hole most of the time.

 

Something has to be done about the ball professionals are allowed to use. But, again, it has to be a part of a comprehensive plan. I think rolling back the driver, being smarter about course setup (slowing down fairways, building up rough, tightening landing areas, deepening fairway bunkers, etc.), and, yes, bifurcating the ball should produce significant results.

[Holy Moses]

> @gvogel said:

> > @"Holy Moses" said:

> > You can change all the Tour courses which is costly and hurts the people who play on those courses the other 51 weeks a year. Or you can give the pros a more difficult to control ball or a smaller driver head. The latter seems easier to do and doesn’t affect the rest of the people who will play those courses. Or just come to accept that this is the modern game.

>

> It is going to be interesting when the USGA and R&A issue the distance report this fall.

>

> I think it's time for bifurcation. Heck, I played with hickories for 5 years. Talk about bifurcation.

 

The question will be how it will affect play on Tour which will affect what is most important to the Tour - the impending TV deal. If scoring is significantly higher and the power game that people like to see is reduced, will it be as exciting? Will the Tour want to possibly hurt their product as the Tiger era is winding down and ratings are already most likely to see a reduction due to Tiger's impending retirement a few years down the road? It's just a risk that the Tour might not want to take. I do enjoy tournaments where accuracy is paramount, but do most viewers want to see that week in and week out?

[Brennanf]

I'm in the rougher rough and narrower fairways camp

[Zisoda18]

I’m willing to bet that the main reason people want to see distance scaled back on tour is because they are short hitters themselves. Who cares if golf is a power game nowadays. Distance should be an advantage just like the ability to hit a baseball farther than ur peers should be an advantage for a major league hitter. I hit the ball far but I’ll never be on tour because I don’t have the consistency to execute shots at the rate tour pros do among other things. You don’t hear me complaining to make clubs that are less accurate for tour pros though.

[Zisoda18]

Also given pace of play concerns and the sake enjoyment of the game, do you guys calling for wooden clubs and balata balls really want the hacks at your local public course to start using that equipment. Because once your pro’s start having to do that, it’s only a matter of time until it applies to the amateurs. 30 handicaps become 40 handicaps

[Hankshank]

Every tour player should be given an axe and a knife, and be sent to the woods to carve their own driver clubhead..

[PowderedToastMan]

A smaller driver is a great solution, because you keep long drives (network television will still be happy), but it brings more skill into the equation and course planning. With a 300cc driver, you’re still going to get monster drives, but if you miss it, you’re not getting away with it like current drivers. Hence it’s not a simple decision to play driver off almost every tee and just know you’ll bomb it over every hazard.

 

Add a slightly spinnier ball and you might actually start seeing slices and hooks again on tour. Honestly I just want to see smaller drivers because it will make me better than I currently am in relation to other golfers because modern drivers have not helped my game like others of my skill level.

[youdamantiger]

> @Need4spd said:

> Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

>

> Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

>

> Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

>

> I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

 

 

To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

 

Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

 

1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

7. Some combination of the above.

 

I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

[HonestPlayer]

I believe courses should be in the 6000-6400 range sometimes up to 6800 but no more - but ultra tight , trees, water, you name it. Difficult greens. And par 65 through to 72 depending on the set up. Make the game a challenge and make a great score mean something. Distance is irrelevant to the players as mentioned, the courses should be twice as tight (if not more) on every single shot and smaller greens. I would watch way more golf and go to so many events if the winning player was struggling to break par on a fair course distance wise that were actually protecting the holes rather than thinking distance of the tee matters to pros - they just blast it down the middle almost every time - why they haven't halved the sizes of the fairways in the 265-350 by now I truly do not know - it should be so tight in those ranges that you are threading the eye of a needle to keep your ball in play, prevent O.B/water or a pitch out sideways in my view.

 

So much wrong with the way courses are set up at elite level. Make the players work harder for the scores if possible. I actually think that iron only tournaments would be interesting too, I'm surprised they don't have them on the PGA tour by now - restricted tournaments like iron only, half set tournaments etc. It would be very interesting. You have multiple formats in sports like cricket and they've all been successful - golf and cricket are quite similar sports apart from the individual and team parts - cricketers play a lot of golf in their spare time because of that.

 

I don't know much about the clubs hosting the vents and courses - but imagine that they wouldn't stay afloat setting up like this - that's the issue - no one would be willing to play there apart from pros in tournaments. That's the overriding problem I guess and making the above impossible.

 

 

[Zisoda18]

I’m willing to bet that the main reason people want to see distance scaled back on tour is because they are short hitters themselves. Who cares if golf is a power game nowadays. Distance should be an advantage just like the ability to hit a baseball farther than ur peers should be an advantage for a major league hitter. I hit the ball far but I’ll never be on tour because I don’t have the consistency to hit good shots at the rate tour pros do among other things. You don’t hear me complaining to make clubs that are less accurate for tour pros though. > @youdamantiger said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

>

>

>

> To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

>

> Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

>

> 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> 7. Some combination of the above.

>

> I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

 

Or maybe players are better in general bc the golfing population is 1000x bigger rn then went Bobby Jones played golf. If you can’t realize this is why player are better in all sports today where the number of people playing the game has increased, ur an absolute moron. Try a different sport. Golf is a thinking man’s game. Maybe football would be better for you.

[Holy Moses]

> @youdamantiger said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

>

>

>

> To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

>

> Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

>

> 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> 7. Some combination of the above.

>

> I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

 

Would be interesting if all Tour courses couldn’t have a par higher than 70.

[KrazyTrain18]

> @Zisoda18 said:

> I’m willing to bet that the main reason people want to see distance scaled back on tour is because they are short hitters themselves. Who cares if golf is a power game nowadays. Distance should be an advantage just like the ability to hit a baseball farther than ur peers should be an advantage for a major league hitter. I hit the ball far but I’ll never be on tour because I don’t have the consistency to hit good shots at the rate tour pros do among other things. You don’t hear me complaining to make clubs that are less accurate for tour pros though. > @youdamantiger said:

> > > @Need4spd said:

> > > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> > >

> > > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> > >

> > > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> > >

> > > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> > >

> > > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

> >

> >

> >

> > To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

> >

> > Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

> >

> > 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> > 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> > 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> > 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> > 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> > 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> > 7. Some combination of the above.

> >

> > I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

>

> Or maybe players are better in general bc the golfing population is 1000x bigger rn then went Bobby Jones played golf. If you can’t realize this is why player are better in all sports today where the number of people playing the game has increased, ur an absolute moron. Try a different sport. Golf is a thinking man’s game. Maybe football would be better for you.

 

Distance isn't the problem, its poor course design that allows pros to simply hit it as far as possible with relatively little to no consequences for a missed shot. I'm not onboard with rolling the ball back but I support restricting driver head size even if it's 440CC and 44 inch shafts.

[Zisoda18]

> @KrazyTrain18 said:

> > @Zisoda18 said:

> > I’m willing to bet that the main reason people want to see distance scaled back on tour is because they are short hitters themselves. Who cares if golf is a power game nowadays. Distance should be an advantage just like the ability to hit a baseball farther than ur peers should be an advantage for a major league hitter. I hit the ball far but I’ll never be on tour because I don’t have the consistency to hit good shots at the rate tour pros do among other things. You don’t hear me complaining to make clubs that are less accurate for tour pros though. > @youdamantiger said:

> > > > @Need4spd said:

> > > > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> > > >

> > > > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> > > >

> > > > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> > > >

> > > > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> > > >

> > > > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

> > >

> > > Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

> > >

> > > Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

> > >

> > > 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> > > 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> > > 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> > > 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> > > 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> > > 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> > > 7. Some combination of the above.

> > >

> > > I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

> >

> > Or maybe players are better in general bc the golfing population is 1000x bigger rn then went Bobby Jones played golf. If you can’t realize this is why player are better in all sports today where the number of people playing the game has increased, ur an absolute moron. Try a different sport. Golf is a thinking man’s game. Maybe football would be better for you.

>

> Distance isn't the problem, its poor course design that allows pros to simply hit it as far as possible with relatively little to no consequences for a missed shot. I'm not onboard with rolling the ball back but I support restricting driver head size even if it's 440CC and 44 inch shafts.

 

Or maybe pro’s are just that accurate with the driver now a days. Go watch tour players hit driver on the range. A miss for them with a driver is more akin to a few yards off a standard fairway where a scratch golfer might hit a drive once a round that deserves to be penalized compared to the shot they were trying to hit. I think few people realize just how good the top 200 in the world are at any given sport. Go play Medinah with the rough they had this week and tell me it isn’t harder than every public course in the state you are from is unless your from Cali or something like that. Medinah was ridiculous this week, the course has narrower fairway than any championship public in the state of Illinois and the rough was thicker than any course I have seen in my lifetime, thicker than a few us opens I’ve been too. At some point you just have to accept pro’s are gonna shoot scores that make me and you look like hacks instead of calling it unfair.

[bladehunter]

Whoa !! What’s happening > @Zisoda18 said:

> I’m willing to bet that the main reason people want to see distance scaled back on tour is because they are short hitters themselves. Who cares if golf is a power game nowadays. Distance should be an advantage just like the ability to hit a baseball farther than ur peers should be an advantage for a major league hitter. I hit the ball far but I’ll never be on tour because I don’t have the consistency to hit good shots at the rate tour pros do among other things. You don’t hear me complaining to make clubs that are less accurate for tour pros though. > @youdamantiger said:

> > > @Need4spd said:

> > > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> > >

> > > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> > >

> > > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> > >

> > > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> > >

> > > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

> >

> >

> >

> > To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

> >

> > Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

> >

> > 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> > 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> > 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> > 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> > 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> > 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> > 7. Some combination of the above.

> >

> > I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

>

> Or maybe players are better in general bc the golfing population is 1000x bigger rn then went Bobby Jones played golf. If you can’t realize this is why player are better in all sports today where the number of people playing the game has increased, ur an absolute moron. Try a different sport. Golf is a thinking man’s game. Maybe football would be better for you.

 

While I’ll agree with you , some old grouchy folks would love to see it rolled back for spite. As they are misinformed about how the distance advantage works.

 

Where I don’t agree is that the advantage is seen more now than in days gone by.

 

I hit the ball farther than most I know , even compared to guys qualifying this year for the USga mid am . Big guy , ball go far. Lol. But I know this is true. Ban all woods and force everybody to play with just irons and my distance advantage grows x5 at least. Tech helps the short hitter and mid range guy way more than the long guys. That’s something that only long guys know or realize. It evens the fields , it doesn’t allow for more blowouts.

 

 

[marmooskapaul]

Change the dimple pattern/depth/amount...on the pro ball. Speculation, but pretty sure the spin, distance and flight can be controlled by dimples. Leave everything else the same.

 

[Divot2]

Some just don’t want to realize that the pros are maximizing every aspect of life(related to golf) and equipment has become a million times better. Add to that the manufacturing tolerances are almost flawless. Now everyone is using great science behind health, eating right, working out, trackman, gearz, and equipment to literally maximize all of it to its limit. I accept it and think that technology is made its way into sports and life for the most part for the better. These guys have the best of the best when it comes to this game and what it takes to play it. Accept it or don’t.

[games]

> @Wooderson said:

> 8000 yard golf courses are not the answer. It's not smart fiscally.

 

This is why the smartest purchaser of a golf course is the third owner. That's a large chunk of real estate that has to be mown and manicured. You can roll back the ball and get similar results.

[games]

Years ago, the golf "powers that be" started promoting Tiger's athleticism to get accepted more as sport and less of a game. The equipment magnifies (exponentially) athletic prowess. Linebacker jokes aside, it's why we're seeing more of the DJ, Brooks, Woodland and Finau types. This is what golf wants to promote.

 

I'm not a great golfer but I was a pretty good bowler. You're starting to see more athleticism in bowlers, and I believe that's by design to attract more athletes. Longer oiling patterns have created a new type of "two hand" player. Along with high-rev rates, these kids are remarkably good at hitting a mark 40-45 feet down the lane, when "old school" bowling was more about hitting a mark at 15 feet (arrows) or 17 feet (splice, no longer found in modern lanes).

 

Modern golf creates interest from us "old white guys" because we can't hit drives 330-350 (and TBH never could). Even at our youngest, best, most athletic selves, with today's equipment. It's fun to watch, and you still have to chip, pitch and putt to win. I'm a fan. No need to tweak it.