Adam Scott on why driving is no longer a skill in pro golf

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @airjammer said:

> > @imakaveli said:

> > Thanks Adam Scott for telling the truth they don’t want to accept. Apart for some rare exceptions course we see every week are dull and lead to boring tournaments.

>

> Things will not change as long as the audience like watching easy birdies. Why the masses would prefer to see 7 pitch and putt easy birdies instead of 3 long iron hard earned birdies I cannot understand but I like hard courses.

>

 

If I was a betting man, I would hazard to guess the majority of people who are watching golf on the PGA tour are not the same people who are on a golf forum. Those are the same people who want to see the easy birdies to let them imagine what it would be like. So many people have also been conditioned to expect that kind of thing on the Tour at this point, so the questions of "what's wrong" or "what happened to XXX" start getting thrown around when the winning score isn't 12+ under par.

[mukster]

It's not like this hasn't been discussed here before. I don't believe there will be any rollback on equipment or <> bifurcation of any kind. They don't have to design any newer courses or make it unplayable for the members either. The easiest thing to do is to grow the rough and narrow the fairways in the right spots for the tournament and then cut it back to normal once the PGA show leaves town. This is in fact as easy as it sounds and if the rough is 12 inches beyond 300 yards, you have basically limited the driver and/or the ball without having to create new equipment.

 

[airjammer]

Everyone has their own preferences. My best friend former scratch who use to be a former er doctor and is crazy smart. He loves making birdies like all golfers but he doesn’t discriminate on how he gets them. There is a par 5 on the course that we normally play when he is in town that should be a par 4...it is straight with no trouble to speak of 462 yards. Most of the time we both have around a 7 iron in. If he could play that hole 18 times and shot 13 or 14 under par that is what he would do.

 

The average handicap is 15 for all golfers so making any birdie is fantastic for them regardless of how easy the hole is. So I can see why the average golfer wants to see professional golfers make lots of birdies.

 

I love to play hard but fair courses and to me setting up professional course to pitch and putts really shortchanges the audience on how truly great they can play.

[bscinstnct]

Cut their drivers down to 43” max. That would shave off like 15+ yards right there.

[Oz Max]

Give them 40s to hit their shot, that should quieten a few if them

[LICC]

> @games said:

> > @Wooderson said:

> > 8000 yard golf courses are not the answer. It's not smart fiscally.

>

> This is why the smartest purchaser of a golf course is the third owner. That's a large chunk of real estate that has to be mown and manicured. You can roll back the ball and get similar results.

 

A course would have to be over 9000 yards to pose similar challenges to the equipment of 30+ years ago.

[QuigleyDU]

I feel like I watched Adam Scott earlier this year hook 4 drives off the planet while in contention to ruin a shot a trophy... Must have gotten easier since then.

 

I wonder what his motivation is. Does he really want the game to have a bigger focus on putting??

[LICC]

> @mukster said:

> It's not like this hasn't been discussed here before. I don't believe there will be any rollback on equipment or <> bifurcation of any kind. They don't have to design any newer courses or make it unplayable for the members either. The easiest thing to do is to grow the rough and narrow the fairways in the right spots for the tournament and then cut it back to normal once the PGA show leaves town. This is in fact as easy as it sounds and if the rough is 12 inches beyond 300 yards, you have basically limited the driver and/or the ball without having to create new equipment.

>

 

This would have only a minor effect. A pro hitting from 110-120 yards out in rough is not at a big disadvantage from hitting 160 from the fairway.

[Ferguson]

"Driving is not a skill" from the guy who possesses a ton a skill but failed to yield results congruent with those skills.

 

 

To me, Adam Scott always appeared genuinely surprised when he won an event. Maybe he's just surprised it takes more than pretty boy looks and endorsement cash to drive the ball effectually?

 

If he fights the establishment, he'll lose.

 

Bombers from the tee sell beer and tickets.

[Z1ggy16]

I wish these courses would be set up like a few of the ones I'm playing (other than length): 20-25 yard wide fairways, tree lined with OB or hazard on one side for almost every hole. Fescue or hazard just feet off the green to either or both sides... Oh and nobody to spot your ball when you yank one 40 yards off line.

 

[smashdn]

Long courses benefit long hitters. Shorter courses more guys have a chance and length is not as big of an advantage.

[DON SVO]

The second part of his statement was more in line with why the course was getting beat up this past week: lots of the country got and had continued to get lots of rain this year. We’ve had multiple courses this year that got lots of rain just before and during the tournament. Balls stay in the fairway, and the greens become dart boards. Take Justin Thomas’ hole-out from 181: that ball landed like a sack of flour 2 yards short with one small hop and dribbled into the front of the cup. He was 181 out and fired directly at the pin. If he didn’t hole that shot he was still looking at only 4-8 feet for birdie.

 

This week would have been massively different if the course wasn’t a soggy sponge.

[irvnasty]

I'm in the slower fairways, longer rough camp. I wouldn't mind slight changes to driver head size, either, although I think that ship has sailed.

I really don't mind guys hitting it a mile, and I think they should be rewarded for their ability to do so. But it's absurd to me to see 40 yards of rollout on some courses, and even more absurd to see guys spinning the ball back from 170 yards out of the "rough".

 

I don't think that the reward needs to be eliminated, but it needs to be balanced against some degree of risk. On a lot of golf holes, there should be a coherent argument for more than one approach to playing the hole.

[smashdn]

> @Zisoda18 said:

> Distance should be an advantage...

 

Distance was an advantage when only a few possessed the skill to keep that distance in play. Equipment advances have made it so most everyone has the distance and there is less need to be precise to keep that distance in play. Difference between the sweet spot being the size of a dime versus a quarter or larger.

 

I play both persimmon woods and a modern set. If I hit the ball anywhere on the non-grooved portion of the face of my modern driver it goes mostly straight and I lose very little distance when it is not absolutely pured. My persimmon drivers on the other hand have a true sweet spot about the size of a dime right between the screws. I can get it over on the heel or toe and it will want to pull back into the fairway due to the bulge of the face but I give up 20-30 yards doing that.

 

The ball is another issue. I hit some embarrassingly long drives with the Titleist AVX. I never could really spin the ball with my irons and wedges anyway so I wasn't getting the benefit of the ProV1 (or X) with the disadvantage of too much spin on my driver. That AVX ball is 15 yards longer than the ProV1 for me.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

> @bscinstnct said:

> Not sure why he is complaining. His accuracy has been ok to crappy over the years.

>

> And even then it’s his driving that makes him competitive considering he is pretty much always negative strokes gained putting.

 

wouldn't adam scott's driving and ball striking ability be exactly why he's complaining. ball strikers aren't getting the advantage they feel they should have because the equipment of today has the ability to hide mishits better than ever. guys who can work the ball both ways and stripe their irons are being beat by guys who just bomb it off the tee and putt well.

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @"DON SVO" said:

> The second part of his statement was more in line with why the course was getting beat up this past week: lots of the country got and had continued to get lots of rain this year. We’ve had multiple courses this year that got lots of rain just before and during the tournament. Balls stay in the fairway, and the greens become dart boards. Take Justin Thomas’ hole-out from 181: that ball landed like a sack of flour 2 yards short with one small hop and dribbled into the front of the cup. He was 181 out and fired directly at the pin. If he didn’t hole that shot he was still looking at only 4-8 feet for birdie.

>

> This week would have been massively different if the course wasn’t a soggy sponge.

 

There is also the fact that the majority of the PGA guys are hitting shorter irons from that distance. You can get an 8 iron to stop fairly quickly even on firmer greens than what they had this week, which is what he hit. I'm guessing there's not a huge majority of amateur golfers who are going to carry an 8 iron 180, much less have the ability to control trajectory and hit with that kind of precision.

 

100% agree this week could have been very different had we not gotten so much rain. Harder to have it run too far off the fairway on a small miss with how wet things were as well as getting to have things stop real fast on the greens.

 

Playing in the club champ at my club this weekend, we had a 2.5 hour delay on Sunday because of the rain, firing at every pin knowing they were going to be soggy was pretty much guaranteed for the better players.

[Shilgy]

> @youdamantiger said:

> > @Need4spd said:

> > Do all you guys really have that much of an issue with evolution? It’s not just technology which has evolved. Players are simply better in general. They’re also bigger, stronger, and more physically fit. We have Tiger to thank for that.

> >

> > Pandora’s box was opened a long time ago and the likelihood of it being closed is exactly 0%. Who actually believes that there will be a uniform ball put in play on tour? Think about the implications of that for just a second. Golf balls are probably one of the most lucrative revenue streams for OEM’s. We can’t even comprehend the total amount of money that would literally be forfeited by the manufacturers, sponsors, the players, and so on.

> >

> > Never. Going. To. Happen.

> >

> > So roll it back you say. It’s 2019 folks. We live in a society that’s obsessed with bigger, faster, stronger, prettier, shinier, etcetera. Rolling the ball back would be like Chevrolet deciding to put a naturally aspirated V6 in the front of the Corvette instead of a V8 in the back, or Apple building a Mac that runs on DOS.

> >

> > I say again - Never. Going. To. Happen.

>

> Biological evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years to show up. Can't happen in 80 years. And, no, players today aren't really all that better. Bio-mechanical analysis of Bobby Jones's swing from 1930 show that he was swinging at 118mph. Given modern equipment and agronomy he would be right there with the longest drivers on Tour. Here's a TED talk you might find interesting on this very subject.

>

>

>

> To the extent performance in sports has improved, it is due almost entirely to three factors: improved equipment, enhanced competition conditions, and the fact that body types suited for certain sports are much more likely to gravitate to those sports. The best body type for golf is probably something akin to Dustin Johnson and Tony Finau, but given that their particular body type is a bit of a rarity on the PGA Tour that means any improvement in distance the past 80 years can be laid at the feet of equipment and agronomy.

>

> Pros ripping modern courses a new one is a thorny problem with a lot of different potential solutions:

>

> 1. Lengthen the courses to 8500 yards (simply not feasible for a lot of the classic tracks).

> 2. Change course setups to be extremely penal (and listen to the resultant b*tching and moaning from the players).

> 3. Roll back the ball (manufacturers will be apoplectic).

> 4. Roll back the driver (ditto).

> 5. Keep the courses the same length but change par to something appropriate for the course like 67 or 68 (purists will pull their hair out).

> 6. Standardize the ball for all competitors. Golf is the only ball sport I can think of in which players are allowed to use completely different balls (again, manufacturers).

> 7. Some combination of the above.

>

> I myself favor a combination of 2,3, and 4.

 

Perhaps it is not "biological evolution" that folks are not referring to when they say the players are stronger and faster? Does anyone disagree that sport specific training has changed dramatically in the last 20 years? Your reference to Bobby Jones is the same as those mentioning Jack or Snead. The fact that there were long hitters back in the day that would still be long today does not in any way prove those that say almost all pros are long today incorrect. It is not the equipment that makes it so difficult for a Corey Pavin to be successful today. It is the sheer fact that there are so many long hitters today-with the talent and short game of the short hitters of the past. Long and skilled will beat short and skilled every time.

[CROUSE99]

> @jjmurry said:

> Would certainly help if they took all the water that they use to soak the greens and watered the fairways so these guys don't get 30 yards of roll.

 

Then they would play lift, clean and cheat because of mud balls. I'm not a fan of lift clean and place.

[iutodd]

Adam is definitely right. They don’t have to shape the ball off the tee hardly at all anymore. The start lines this week were over the trees. It just doesn’t matter what the hole looks like - if these guys can find a straight line that is where they’re aiming. So build courses that take away straight lines off the tee. Instead of moving the tee 25 yards back move it 10 yards left or right and force a cut or a draw...or force them to lay back if they can’t hit one or the other. That might be a bit contrived and “change the course” but it’s clear that the modern player gives fuck all about course design and is just going to smash it 340 over the damn trees anyway.

 

I remember a hole at a muni I used to play when I was a teenager - from the back tees you played out of a chute to a hard dogleg left on a 450 yard par four. Straight from the tee (which was the only way to play really) ran out at 240-250 with OB right there - fairway ended at like 225. You had to play a draw or leave yourself 200+ in.

 

More holes like that, where they are forced to make a real decision off the tee, is something I would like to see. I watch a LOT of golf and I’m bored of seeing guys take driver on basically every hole and just hit some sort of dead straight high bomb. Give me Tigers stinger from 18 at the Players. We don’t need everyone to be Bubba - but I want to see shot making.

[CROUSE99]

I was struck by him saying the driver is now the most forgiving club in the bag. That's certainly true of my game and I am a pretty lousy ball striker. When I started playing golf, the driver was the most difficult club for me to hit well. Now, it is the best club in my bag. And I notice the same thing with most beginners I play with.

[playar32]

"Casual fans"

 

If you look at every sport, or news outlet (pretty much everything on TV), they are trying to capture as many casual fans and viewing eyes as they can, to boost ratings, to get more money. Best way to do that is to simply the product. The NFL basically unlocked the system, and now everyone follows that plan. Think about the NFL, is it harder to explain to someone that a 9-6 game was great because the defenses play a good scheme or explain how a run play was good because all 11 people worked together. No, its easier for someone to pick up if its the QB throwing a 60 pass.

 

Same with golf. Think about when you play, most don't come into the clubhouse talking about the "skillful round they put together to shoot 82" (which is good), they talk about the one big drive they hit on 13 on the way to a 105. Whats more exciting to someone who doesn't watch a lot of golf, listening to a 3 minute description of how a 260 yard drive was good because he played a draw off the tee to set to the pin location, or watching some guy pound it 300. Also, they always set it up; you'll hear about the 220 yard 5 irons, but not the 160 yard 5 iron with the wind in the face.

[Zisoda18]

The> @smashdn said:

> Long courses benefit long hitters. Shorter courses more guys have a chance and length is not as big of an advantage.

 

> @iutodd said:

> Adam is definitely right. They don’t have to shape the ball off the tee hardly at all anymore. The start lines this week were over the trees. It just doesn’t matter what the hole looks like - if these guys can find a straight line that is where they’re aiming. So build courses that take away straight lines off the tee. Instead of moving the tee 25 yards back move it 10 yards left or right and force a cut or a draw...or force them to lay back if they can’t hit one or the other. That might be a bit contrived and “change the course” but it’s clear that the modern player gives **** all about course design and is just going to smash it 340 over the **** trees anyway.

>

> I remember a hole at a muni I used to play when I was a teenager - from the back tees you played out of a chute to a hard dogleg left on a 450 yard par four. Straight from the tee (which was the only way to play really) ran out at 240-250 with OB right there - fairway ended at like 225. You had to play a draw or leave yourself 200+ in.

>

> More holes like that, where they are forced to make a real decision off the tee, is something I would like to see. I watch a LOT of golf and I’m bored of seeing guys take driver on basically every hole and just hit some sort of dead straight high bomb. Give me Tigers stinger from 18 at the Players. We don’t need everyone to be Bubba - but I want to see shot

 

 

Alright , so throughout which courses exist in the world that meet these conditions lol. They better start designing new courses ASAP.

[CROUSE99]

> @gvogel said:

> > @PZero said:

> > “They haven’t figured out yet that long means nothing to us; **you can’t build it long enough,**” Scott said

> >

> > Everything was on point and what so many have been saying for quite a while. Lengthening the courses or even the nonsense about rolling the ball back are not the answer.

> >

> >

>

> I would like to see them play at 8,500 yards - I think that Adam's opinion might change.

>

> It's time to shrink the size of the driver head for elite golfers. 230 cc or less. That would change the game, and require more skill off the tee. You say that would be like hitting 3-wood; I say, not so fast. They would be hitting a small headed club with 9* or 10*; no margin of error there.

 

If you did shrink the size of the driver head, you might see higher spin balls come back into play in order to help elevate the tee shots. A ball that has more spin throughout the bag would make it harder to hit the fairway and would make shots from the rough less predictable.

[QuigleyDU]

I would like more background into where this statement from him is coming from? What was the question?

[FairwaysToHeaven]

> @mukster said:

> It's not like this hasn't been discussed here before. I don't believe there will be any rollback on equipment or <> bifurcation of any kind. They don't have to design any newer courses or make it unplayable for the members either. The easiest thing to do is to grow the rough and narrow the fairways in the right spots for the tournament and then cut it back to normal once the PGA show leaves town. This is in fact as easy as it sounds and if the rough is 12 inches beyond 300 yards, you have basically limited the driver and/or the ball without having to create new equipment.

>

 

hitting it far is a skill and should be rewarded. the problem i have with simply tightening the fairways at 300 and growing the rough to absurd height beyond a certain yardage does one thing...hurt the guys who have a skillset that allows them to hit the ball far.

 

why should be have luke donald and furyk pull driver and hit it to 290 and then force koepka or dj to pull 3 iron and hit it to the same spot because the risk of missing fairway is so penal. you'd effectively be rewarding short hitters.

 

the only solution is to reward ball strikers by limiting the size of driver and/or forgiveness along with making the ball spin more. penalize mishits, but don't penalize swing speed.

[gator022]

The anchoring ban caused a lot of complaining from players and almost took a career away from some until they found a new way to putt (Webb, Keegan, etc.). They took a perceived advantage away from those guys, but now we can't take a distance advantage away? Surely they can and probably will.

 

I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but they've taken drastic measures away before. They can do it, make it work, and make the game more sustainable in some capacity.

[QuigleyDU]

> @gator022 said:

> The anchoring ban caused a lot of complaining from players and almost took a career away from some until they found a new way to putt (Webb, Keegan, etc.). They took a perceived advantage away from those guys, but now we can't take a distance advantage away? Surely they can and probably will.

>

> I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but they've taken drastic measures away before. They can do it, make it work, and make the game more sustainable in some capacity.

 

I am not sure that the powers that be will ever change equipment. Maybe, but there is so much money in it that it is cutting your own throat. They just need to get more creative with course set up, or course choices.

[Z1ggy16]

> @HoosierMizuno said:

> > @mukster said:

> > It's not like this hasn't been discussed here before. I don't believe there will be any rollback on equipment or <> bifurcation of any kind. They don't have to design any newer courses or make it unplayable for the members either. The easiest thing to do is to grow the rough and narrow the fairways in the right spots for the tournament and then cut it back to normal once the PGA show leaves town. This is in fact as easy as it sounds and if the rough is 12 inches beyond 300 yards, you have basically limited the driver and/or the ball without having to create new equipment.

> >

>

> hitting it far is a skill and should be rewarded. the problem i have with simply tightening the fairways at 300 and growing the rough to absurd height beyond a certain yardage does one thing...hurt the guys who have a skillset that allows them to hit the ball far.

>

> why should be have luke donald and furyk pull driver and hit it to 290 and then force koepka or dj to pull 3 iron and hit it to the same spot because the risk of missing fairway is so penal. you'd effectively be rewarding short hitters.

>

> the only solution is to reward ball strikers by limiting the size of driver and/or forgiveness along with making the ball spin more. penalize mishits, but don't penalize swing speed.

 

Swinging fast while hitting the ball 40 yards left of target isn't really a skill. A healthy portion of this website probably has speeds close to or even over the PGA tour average. Simply swinging a stick with a big ball of metal on the end is not a skill.... but Swinging that stick >115mph while making a tiny little ball go straight and land in short grass, is.

 

 

 

 

[jkumpire]

There are a lot of things to say about the thread.

1. Mediah was defenseless last week, wet course, not a lot of wind, and no wonder it got toasted. But you can bet that the USGA could have made that course play much harder, but then everyone would be crying about how unfair they made it play.

2. Just curious, if I am not mistaken isn't the best part of Adam Scott's game his iron play? Could that have something to do with his complaint here?

3. Equipment and training has changed golf for the better, I am glad we do not have to hit persimmon woods and tiny blades anymore. In a way I could care less about professional golf, I care about my own game. And remember as well that if you think the PGA Tour has messed things up, watch the LPGA, where the women do not hit it as far as the men, but sure seem to score well. They have to do a lot of things men do not have to do to win, much like old school golf.

4. Another alternative nobody has talked about here to help with the issue is limiting knowledge of the course. Make pros play with a simple yardage book, and no yardage markers on the fairway. If players are so good they can hit balls to a certain number, then add the complexity of playing shots without knowing the number. So if player A has maybe or maybe not 175 to a tucked pin, its a lot harder to pull a club execute the right shot. It takes away part of the advantage of length, since now having a wedge in your hand is maybe not the best play, and it will be hard to find the right distance.

5. Another change could be to shrink the size of greens and harden them up for touring pros. What if Medinah played 7500 yards and had very firm small greens like Pebble Beach had? Now you bring in all kinds of shots to play to get close to the green, not just wedge x to point y.

6. I think it needs to be said that ultimately the PGA Tour needs to decide what is best for the players on the PGA Tour. If they want the tour to be great for tv, and purses, and spectators, and the next Tiger Woods is not on the horizon, what you saw last weekend may be what is in the best interest of the Tour. If you don't like it don't watch the PGA Tour or buy clubs and other merchandise. If enough people get bored and stop watching they will find a solution to the problem.

[c7015]

Just change Par , problem solved