stickney "ballflight" article confusing me

[rich_s2]

I’m ready to break a few course records now after reading all that

[extrastiff]

I knew i had heard some youtube instructors preaching the same stuff. Meandmygolf was on golf channel this morning saying "slice is due to face-open-to-path."

[Ri_Redneck]

Nelson is describing the process as they do now, in relation to the target line. I was taught that an "open" and "closed" face was relative to my body line, not the target line. When the conversations about the New Ball Flight Rules came about, it was very confusing because everyone was relating FA to target and not body. Once I figured this out, it all made sense. Also, I was initially taught that start line was designated by the path. Repeated instances of this NOT WORKING got me thinking they were full of crap. They were feeling something that was obviously not true. After some in-depth practice, I found that the FA was far closer to the start line than the path and everything fell into place.

BT

[bladehunter]

Yep. And it makes a guy totally want to flush the “ new ball flight law” idea out with the morning poo. Feel may not be real. But it sure as heck is easier to trust in. After reading every word of all that “ vector vector , roger roger , over under “ talk , I have no clue.

[bladehunter]

How far off is your footline to the target line ? For me it’s pretty darn near the Same line. Unless I’m trying to hit a huge slice.

[CardsChamps11]

Maybe I'm still confused. So Phil is wrong here? This was from 2018 long after the "New Ball Flight Rules" were known.

[stingerfade]

except he’s not doing what he says. The first fade goes straight so s he’s hitting the second one he says “open the face to the target and get it to curve back” so he is using the new laws just doesn’t know it

[bladehunter]

Huh?

 

Can we get a cliffs notes version of the new vs old ? I thought the old had the face open to target and cut across for a fade ?

[DaveLeeNC]

In the world of ballflight there is no body line and there is no target line. There is the

1) Path of the club at impact

2) Where the face of the club is pointed at impact

The ball starts mostly where the fact is pointed at impact. Target line, body line, etc are just aids in description.

So in your example the ball will start right and go more right.

dave

[CardsChamps11]

So in the Phil Mickelson video he said to hit a fade he aimed right (opposite because he's lefty) and swung on his "body line" with the face pointed at the target he wanted to finish at.

 

BUT in reality he actually swung inside out at his finishing target and closed his face to start it on his body line?

[DaveLeeNC]

What you have described here is a case where the path of the club at impact is right of the target and the face of the club at impact is at the target. So the ball will start just slightly right of the target (path does have a small effect on the initial path) and curve to the left.

dave

[KMeloney]

Yes, but for the purposes of everyone trying to understand the physics here, doesn't it make the most sense to talk in terms that golfers understand, like where they intend the ball to go if they hit it straight (at the target, on a target line), and how they might align their bodies and club faces in relation to that?

[DaveLeeNC]

Yes - as long as it doesn't confuse an understanding of what really is going on here.

dave

[bladehunter]

That what I said @DaveLeeNC ... or meant. Footline to me is left of pin for a fade. Face slightly open to footline and path to footline or slightly left of that coming from a fraction outside . Makes a nice fade to the pin. No ? Maybe I confused by saying target ? To me target is where my body and path are aimed , then the amount of curve I put on the ball( face angle ) get it to go toward the pin. This is my own understanding of what I do or think I do. No idea on new or old law. It’s all bunk anyway if you can’t do it on command.

never aim at the pin unless you intend to hit a straight ball is the way I look at it.

[CardsChamps11]

So to clarify, this is something I found on GolfTec that seems to illustrate ball flight laws. Are these the new or old?

 

[Ri_Redneck]

Just to bring something up that isn't being mentioned. He is aiming at address. At impact, the clubface is not pointing at the same spot. Phil's subconscious is what is aiming the face at impact because of the training he has put his body through. He is playing by feel, even though the math is precise in his planning. Personally, I tend to have a different "target" than the pin when I work a shot. I choose that target as the starting line for the shot and it is based on the amount of expected curve. It's literally just like a breaking putt. I have a target that is not the hole. I want to start the ball at the first target and have it curve to the final target.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

Exactly the way I look at it.

BT

[DaveLeeNC]

 

CardsChamp11 (re Post #75), those are the 'new laws' and are correct. And if you don't like dealing with 9 scenarios, but remember that the ball starts out (approximately) where the face is pointed at impact, and it curves away from the path line (at impact) - then you got it.

dave

ps. Note that I have edited/changed the earlier and incorrect statement that I made.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

This is a great post. I wish the instructors working with kids at the time picked up on this. As a competitive jr back then pushed into the beloved draw pattern I was encouraged to sling it right field and turn it down as hard as I could.

Finally understanding the ‘face angle’ piece of the puzzle made me realize I was deep down the rabbit hole. Now all I try to do is hit cuts?

[Ri_Redneck]

Yes, that is the NBFLs as stated for all launch monitors. they use pull, straight and push in the names because everything is tied to the "target line" (line directly at the pin) with a launch monitor. They never mention anything about any other "target" for aiming initial launch. Just right of the target or left of the target. These terms should always be used when instructing someone how to hit these shots or when discussing them here in the forums. However, since I tie everything to a "start line-target line" when planning a shot, I only use draw, straight or fade in my mind.

BT

[bladehunter]

Yes. Nice to know I’m not the only one. Lol

 

using those diagrams , you’d have to include the pin in all alignment thinking , no? No wonder people don’t improve.

 

 

[cardoustie]

I still recall my first Physics exam in undergrad, 38%.

I recall reading the late great Payne saying he used to hit draws and fades by feeling them

One other observation, I'm a draw guy, especially off the tee. Very rare to see draw guys opening / aligning their faces to the right. I've always done this and consider it a secret for push draws

 

[Ri_Redneck]

Well, yes. The pin is the final resting place that every golfer wants on every shot. It isn't always where they want the ball to land or where they want the ball to go initially. But leaving it out of the equation is not wise. The hard part is putting all that information into the feel that we all have to use when we execute a shot. In the Michelson video, the one thing I like about what he says is that he wants to use the same swing when working the ball slightly. This is something a lot of people don't realize. You should try to use the same exact swing when hitting draws, fades and straight shots that curve slightly (10 yds or less, IMHO). The only thing he changes is his setup and FA in relation to his grip. Also, many don't understand what "opening and closing" the face of the club means. It means rotating the grip IN YOUR HANDS so that the face is slightly more closed or open. Not rotating the hands to close or open.

Once he started talking about large curvature, then he started altering his swing like holding the lead elbow close to his side to allow the hands to release a bit earlier or more fully.

BT

[stingerfade]

The “old” was like Nicklaus said, aim body where you want the ball to start and the face where you want it to finish. Basically face square to target and body determines curve. Where now it’s the opposite.

thing I was commenting on was in the video that’s what Phil said to do (old) but then actually did the new way when he said to open or close the face to the target.

[bladehunter]

I’m sorry. I don’t follow. Opposite of body at start line and face at target would be body at target and face at startline. That’s cannot be correct. If aim my body at the pin and face left and try to hit the pin with a fade it’s either going to be a double cross hooking left or a dead straight ball at the pin , IF ......IF....... I can turn hard enough tp get my body out of the way so I can hold the toe from closing down. 99.9999 % of the golf world cannot turn that that hard. ( to hit the shut face fade. )

[tungstenplug]

When shaping a shot, do you aim your feet and shoulders where you want the ball to start or where you want it to finish?

[tungstenplug]

.

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[Obee]

Where I want it to start -- usually.

[tungstenplug]

Okay good. Some folks above were confusing me, but I'm happy to be in the same boat as you and Tiger

[stingerfade]

Sorry I wrote incorrectly. I meant the opposite is that face determines start line now, and in old teaching, it was aim body where you want to start the ball and face at target. Now it’s aim the face where you want to start the ball. That’s what I meant. Only was talking about face aiming. What Phil is doing is aiming face where he starts ball and aims body right of that for a fade (because he’s lefty obviously)

I just thought it was interesting how what he said he did and what he does is different.