Brush still allowed on green?

[jobin]

Old rules permitted a brush to be used to 'sweep' the green prior to putting. No direct track to the hole was permitted.

In play yesterday i used my hand, palm side, to brush away a mound of sand on the green left by the workers.

Someone said 'only back of hand permitted'.

In new rules, i cannot find any comment on use of a brush. Hand, apparently either side, is OK to move sand, etc, from the green. No testing of surface permitted.

 

So, is using a small broom on the green still OK?

[Krt22]

In those cases I would ask for the person to show me where in the rules book such a stipulation can be found.

[sui generis]

From Rule 15:

 

"Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment)."

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15

[Augster]

“Back of the hand” is a new one for me. Where do these guys get this stuff?? :)

[jobin]

Rule 15 is superceded by Rule 13; actions permitted on the green. And don't confuse actions permitted to 'repair damage' to removal of loose impediments.

Since no Rules statement nullifies use of broom on green, i'll try one next time out on sandy greens.

[BrandonDunes]

Rickie used his towel once to brush the sand off the green

[antip]

> @"sui generis" said:

> From Rule 15:

>

> "Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment)."

>

> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15

 

I'm aware of a USGA ruling that use of a leaf blower is permitted.

[Colin L]

The "only with the back of the hand" myth is alive and well in the UK.

[scooterhd2]

i use my hat. back or front i dont care.

[Newby]

15.1aWithout penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the courseCourse: The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:(...Continued), and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment).

 

> @jobin said:

> Old rules permitted a brush to be used to 'sweep' the green prior to putting. No direct track to the hole was permitted.

> In play yesterday i used my hand, palm side, to brush away a mound of sand on the green left by the workers.

> Someone said 'only back of hand permitted'.

> In new rules, i cannot find any comment on use of a brush. Hand, apparently either side, is OK to move sand, etc, from the green. No testing of surface permitted.

>

> So, is using a small broom on the green still OK?

 

_13.1c(1) Removal of Sand and Loose Soil. Sand and loose soil on the putting green (but not anywhere else on the course) may be removed without penalty._

 

No restrictions mentioned.

[Newby]

> @"sui generis" said:

> From Rule 15:

>

> "Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment)."

>

> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15

 

Sand is not a loose impediment.

[antip]

> @Newby said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > From Rule 15:

> >

> > "Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment)."

> >

> > https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15

>

> Sand is not a loose impediment.

 

True in 2019, but on the PG is treated as kind of an "honorary" loose impediment.

[bladehunter]

What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

 

They are after all the same thing in material at times.

[antip]

> @bladehunter said:

> What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

>

> They are after all the same thing in material at times.

 

It's possible to kick a pebble. You can only stand on a grain of sand. :)

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

>

> They are after all the same thing in material at times.

 

It makes no difference in the context of this thread, on the putting green, "sand and loose soil" may be removed. But "sand and loose soil' are not loose impediments, so may NOT be removed elsewhere on the course.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

> >

> > They are after all the same thing in material at times.

>

> It makes no difference in the context of this thread, on the putting green, "sand and loose soil" may be removed. But "sand and loose soil' are not loose impediments, so may NOT be removed elsewhere on the course.

 

Right I get that. It’s just always been curiosity of mine. I’m constantly having large sand on the fringe between the hole and my ball that I wish to putt. I feel like it’s pebble size since I can easily pick it up. But. It’s clearly large sand as in glassy material. I usually move it. But was just curious if it was actually legal or not?

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> Right I get that. It’s just always been curiosity of mine. I’m constantly having large sand on the fringe between the hole and my ball that I wish to putt. I feel like it’s pebble size since I can easily pick it up. But. It’s clearly large sand as in glassy material. I usually move it. But was just curious if it was actually legal or not?

 

The Rules of Golf don't define a size that divides "sand" from "stones". For what its worth, geotechnical engineers define sand as being under about 0.2", gravel being larger. As you say, the mineral composition could be the same. Others may disagree, but I'd say that if its a single particle that can be easily picked up, it would reasonably be called a loose impediment.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Right I get that. It’s just always been curiosity of mine. I’m constantly having large sand on the fringe between the hole and my ball that I wish to putt. I feel like it’s pebble size since I can easily pick it up. But. It’s clearly large sand as in glassy material. I usually move it. But was just curious if it was actually legal or not?

>

> The Rules of Golf don't define a size that divides "sand" from "stones". For what its worth, geotechnical engineers define sand as being under about 0.2", gravel being larger. As you say, the mineral composition could be the same. Others may disagree, but I'd say that if its a single particle that can be easily picked up, it would reasonably be called a loose impediment.

 

My thoughts exactly. I’m not brushing these away. I’m just picking and tossing quickly. Same as a leaf would be moved.

[Krt22]

> @bladehunter said:

> What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

>

> They are after all the same thing in material at times.

 

What if it was multiple grains of sand clumped together..such that it looks like a pebble but turns to sand once removed. A la Rory in the bunker this year

[Krt22]

> @"Colin L" said:

> The "only with the back of the hand" myth is alive and well in the UK.

 

Would one have to brush to the left or to the right with the back of thy hand, given it is in the UK and all

[Sawgrass]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

> >

> > They are after all the same thing in material at times.

>

> What if it was multiple grains of sand clumped together..such that it looks like a pebble but turns to sand once removed. A la Rory in the bunker this year

 

It’s my understanding that while soil clumped together is a loose impediment, sand clumped together is not.

[SecondandGoal]

This time of year especially, with leaves and pine needles all over the place, I use my hat. Line of putt can easily be covered with way too many leaves to ever consider moving them by hand.

[bladehunter]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

> > >

> > > They are after all the same thing in material at times.

> >

> > What if it was multiple grains of sand clumped together..such that it looks like a pebble but turns to sand once removed. A la Rory in the bunker this year

>

> It’s my understanding that while soil clumped together is a loose impediment, sand clumped together is not.

 

This is why I asked. I don’t truly know. And I don’t truly see it spelled out anywhere. As in how does the rules define sand ? I see some plain definition of what you can and cannot do with sand. But no real line from where sand becomes pebble. It’s not that I’m looking for a loophole to cheat. Actually the opposite. I’d like to know where the line is so I don’t cheat myself compared to those that willl bend the rules.

[Sawgrass]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

> > > >

> > > > They are after all the same thing in material at times.

> > >

> > > What if it was multiple grains of sand clumped together..such that it looks like a pebble but turns to sand once removed. A la Rory in the bunker this year

> >

> > It’s my understanding that while soil clumped together is a loose impediment, sand clumped together is not.

>

> This is why I asked. I don’t truly know. And I don’t truly see it spelled out anywhere. As in how does the rules define sand ? I see some plain definition of what you can and cannot do with sand. But no real line from where sand becomes pebble. It’s not that I’m looking for a loophole to cheat. Actually the opposite. I’d like to know where the line is so I don’t cheat myself compared to those that willl bend the rules.

 

I agree that it’s not as clear as it could be, but two indications exist in the definition of LI:

 

Things that are LIs:

 

• Clumps of compacted soil (including aeration plugs).

 

Plus:

• Sand and Loose Soil are not loose impediments.

 

 

Note that it doesn’t say, “loose sand” and loose soil, implying that no sand at all is a LI.

[Mr. Bean]

I have always considered sand being something so fine that you cannot easily pick only one grain out of it. I have never had any problems in interpreting that.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > What size pebble goes from being “ sand” to being a “ pebble “ and therefore a loose impediment?

> > > > >

> > > > > They are after all the same thing in material at times.

> > > >

> > > > What if it was multiple grains of sand clumped together..such that it looks like a pebble but turns to sand once removed. A la Rory in the bunker this year

> > >

> > > It’s my understanding that while soil clumped together is a loose impediment, sand clumped together is not.

> >

> > This is why I asked. I don’t truly know. And I don’t truly see it spelled out anywhere. As in how does the rules define sand ? I see some plain definition of what you can and cannot do with sand. But no real line from where sand becomes pebble. It’s not that I’m looking for a loophole to cheat. Actually the opposite. I’d like to know where the line is so I don’t cheat myself compared to those that willl bend the rules.

>

> I agree that it’s not as clear as it could be, but two indications exist in the definition of LI:

>

> Things that are LIs:

>

> • Clumps of compacted soil (including aeration plugs).

>

> Plus:

> • Sand and Loose Soil are not loose impediments.

>

>

> Note that it doesn’t say, “loose sand” and loose soil, implying that no sand at all is a LI.

 

I agree with Sawgrass, compacted sand is not the same as compacted soil.

[david.c.w]

I thought you could use your fingers/palm as long as you are not feeling for the direction of the grain of the grass. Does that rule still exist?

 

[Newby]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> I thought you could use your fingers/palm as long as you are not feeling for the direction of the grain of the grass. Does that rule still exist?

>

**13.1e**

During a round and while play is stopped under Rule 5.7a, a player must not deliberately take either of these actions to test the putting green or a wrong green:

Rub the surface, or Roll a ball.

 

**13.1e/1**

An example of an action that is a breach of Rule 13.1e is when:

A player roughens or scrapes the grass on the putting green to determine which way the grain is growing.

 

An example of an action that ia not a breach of Rule 13.1e is when:

A player places the palm of his or her hand on the surface of the putting green on his or her line of play to determine the wetness of the putting green. While the player is doing so to test the putting green, this action is not prohibited under Rule 13.1e.

[davep043]

> @"david.c.w" said:

> I thought you could use your fingers/palm as long as you are not feeling for the direction of the grain of the grass. Does that rule still exist?

>

 

At one point you could use only your hand or a club. The limitation (using only your hand or a club) was removed in the 2004 rules, which simply said you were allowed to remove loose impediments (which at the time included sand or soil on the putting green).

[antip]

> @Newby said:

 

>

> **13.1e/1**

> An example of an action that is a breach of Rule 13.1e is when:

> A player roughens or scrapes the grass on the putting green to determine which way the grain is growing.

>

This one is particularly interesting because precisely the same action of brushing a hand across the green can be a breach or not depending on what is going on in the player's head. Challenge there for the referee.