Did the 2016 USGA solo round posting change create people that look like sandbaggers but aren't?

[davep043]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Bebsport678 said:

> > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> >

> > And yes I post every round, solo or not

>

> That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

>

 

I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

[Bebsport678]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > >

> > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> >

> > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> >

>

> I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

 

Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

 

But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

[Augster]

> @Bebsport678 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > >

> > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > >

> > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > >

> >

> > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

>

> Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

>

> But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

 

No. You shouldn’t post all those rounds. You should find at least one friend to play with.

 

As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

 

The USGA is doing solo players a favor. Solo players are likely going to post better scores playing by themselves if they get to post solo scores. These better scores will basically give the player a vanity cap as it’s way more than likely they wouldn’t be able to play to that reduced index in a competition.

 

Yet, all we hear from solo posters is “I’m going to post anyway” or “The USGA is questioning my integrity” blah blah blah. Where, in reality, solo posters should be thanking the USGA that they get to practice for free and not have those solo scores count against their index when they are slogging through a 5-hour competitive round that is NOTHING like the majority of their solo scores where they breeze through by themselves in 3 hours with no waiting or distractions.

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @Newby said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > We'll see what types of display we'll get from Ghin (or its replacement) next year. I'm only guessing, but you will probably be able to look up some random player's scoring on that course on that day, and back-calculate a Daily Adjustment if one isn't specifically presented. Take their score, calculate their Differential with no adjustment, and look at the Differential recorded for handicap. If there's a difference, you can see whether a Da\ily Adjustment was used, and how much it was.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Without being authorised (eg official of the club) I doubt anyone will be able to look at another individual's playing record. But IMO it will be likely that PCC information will be available on a club's website or the WHS website a la https://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/NCRListing.aspx

> >

> > At the moment, each player's scores are available for review by anyone who knows his name. You can review not only the scores used in the current revision of handicap (which changes for us twice a month) as well as his 20 most recent scores, and handicap history. I'd be a bit surprised if this level of transparency changes with the new system, but I can't be sure. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the display was revised to show the PCC for each round along with the other information. Here's an example of a random player I just looked up:

> >

>

> Interesting. I wonder how the Data Protection Laws deal with that over here.

 

Probably don’t apply if your handicap and identity being available to others are part of the terms of making use of the system the way it operates.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > >

> > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> >

> > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> >

>

> I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

 

This describes what I meant by criminalizing single round posting earlier. You took a perfectly legal and ok behavior , and made it illegal. Did the single who posted accurate scores become dishonest overnight if he continues to posit his only scores ? I don’t think so. Calling someone dishonest is a very tricky thing. Man made arbitrary rules do not always make for a good measuring stick.

[bladehunter]

> @Augster said:

> > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > > >

> > > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

> >

> > Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

> >

> > But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

>

> No. You shouldn’t post all those rounds. You should find at least one friend to play with.

>

> As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

>

> The USGA is doing solo players a favor. Solo players are likely going to post better scores playing by themselves if they get to post solo scores. These better scores will basically give the player a vanity cap as it’s way more than likely they wouldn’t be able to play to that reduced index in a competition.

>

> Yet, all we hear from solo posters is “I’m going to post anyway” or “The USGA is questioning my integrity” blah blah blah. Where, in reality, solo posters should be thanking the USGA that they get to practice for free and not have those solo scores count against their index when they are slogging through a 5-hour competitive round that is NOTHING like the majority of their solo scores where they breeze through by themselves in 3 hours with no waiting or distractions.

>

 

Lol. “ thank you sir , man I have another “.

 

Wth? Doing a favor ? Only if being a sandbaggers is your goal.

 

A single who plays better is showing that his or her potential is better than they exhibit with a group. Handicap is supposed to reflect potential. I agree people should find playing partners , no doubt. But the player who is bettter as a single can play that well with others too once they get used to people. A body doesn’t forget how to hit a ball because other humans are around. It’s simply mind over matter.

 

The mentality you describe sounds exactly like the sandbaggers I have. I hear comments all the time like “ I needed this round to help my cap “ when playing bad ..... or my favorite “ glad I don’t have to post today , I’m playing great. “ when playing a partnered game. My mind has never once thought that way. Thinking that way is actively manipulating your handicap , and is the very definition of sandbagging. Your supposed to play every shot as best you can and post the score after 9 or 18. Zero thought of how it affects you’re cap. I did that as a single too and it reflected perfectly how I played in a group. We’re acting like playing as a single is worth 4-5 shots or something. It’s not.

 

And no. The only time you need a cap is not to compete with others. Many gross events have handicap requirements to enter . USga included. It’s used as an overall measure , not just for trying to fleece your pals out of $4.

[Bebsport678]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > > > >

> > > > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

> > >

> > > Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

> > >

> > > But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

> >

> > No. You shouldn’t post all those rounds. You should find at least one friend to play with.

> >

> > As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

> >

> > The USGA is doing solo players a favor. Solo players are likely going to post better scores playing by themselves if they get to post solo scores. These better scores will basically give the player a vanity cap as it’s way more than likely they wouldn’t be able to play to that reduced index in a competition.

> >

> > Yet, all we hear from solo posters is “I’m going to post anyway” or “The USGA is questioning my integrity” blah blah blah. Where, in reality, solo posters should be thanking the USGA that they get to practice for free and not have those solo scores count against their index when they are slogging through a 5-hour competitive round that is NOTHING like the majority of their solo scores where they breeze through by themselves in 3 hours with no waiting or distractions.

> >

>

> Lol. “ thank you sir , man I have another “.

>

> Wth? Doing a favor ? Only if being a sandbaggers is your goal.

>

> A single who plays better is showing that his or her potential is better than they exhibit with a group. Handicap is supposed to reflect potential. I agree people should find playing partners , no doubt. But the player who is bettter as a single can play that well with others too once they get used to people. A body doesn’t forget how to hit a ball because other humans are around. It’s simply mind over matter.

>

> The mentality you describe sounds exactly like the sandbaggers I have. I hear comments all the time like “ I needed this round to help my cap “ when playing bad ..... or my favorite “ glad I don’t have to post today , I’m playing great. “ when playing a partnered game. My mind has never once thought that way. Thinking that way is actively manipulating your handicap , and is the very definition of sandbagging. Your supposed to play every shot as best you can and post the score after 9 or 18. Zero thought of how it affects you’re cap. I did that as a single too and it reflected perfectly how I played in a group. We’re acting like playing as a single is worth 4-5 shots or something. It’s not.

>

> And no. The only time you need a cap is not to compete with others. Many gross events have handicap requirements to enter . USga included. It’s used as an overall measure , not just for trying to fleece your pals out of $4.

 

Well said!

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > >

> > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > >

> > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > >

> >

> > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

>

> This describes what I meant by criminalizing single round posting earlier. You took a perfectly legal and ok behavior , and made it illegal. Did the single who posted accurate scores become dishonest overnight if he continues to posit his only scores ? I don’t think so. Calling someone dishonest is a very tricky thing. Man made arbitrary rules do not always make for a good measuring stick.

 

That player has specifically chosen to disobey a rule that he disagrees with. Without knowing anything about his game, and how he performs with others in a 5-hour competitive situation, dealing with other personalities as well as a different pace of play, there is a significant potential he has skewed his handicap, as compared to what it would be if he posted by the rules. He may have gained an advantage, he may have lost strokes, we don't know, but he's **chosen** to base his handicap differently than mine or yours. That's simply wrong, in my opinion. And the rule change didn't make him a cheater, his refusal to change his behavior to comply with the new rule is what did that.

 

We had a bunch of rules changes this past January, and a lot of people disagreed with some of those changes. Are you OK with players refusing to follow THOSE rules too? Is it OK if a player drops from shoulder height, and watches his ball roll 7 or 8 feet to where he has a clean shot, and then play the ball when he's competing against you? There's really no difference if you're playing a net game of any kind. His choice to ignore the current rule might get him an advantage, it might no., but he's still broken the rules.

 

For your last point, the stated purpose of the handicap system is to "make the game of golf more enjoyable by enabling players of differing abilities to compete on an equitable basis." Lots of people use it for additional purposes. In the situation you mention, the organizers of the tournaments have used it to separate players into those who have the potential to compete at a certain minimum level from those who don't. Just because I use a screwdriver to punch holes in cans doesn't mean its purpose isn't to screw things in..

[mark m]

Random thoughts:

 

* Most of us are or have been members of organziations where we do not agree with all the policies and rules. But we either work to make a change or drop out if it is an unbridgable gap. Please don't tell us you are working on a higher level or noble when you are not. It would be much more honorable to drop out.

* If I were a competitive bagger: I would like to play my non tournament rounds in skins games and/or fourball match play. I have had the opportunity to play in competitive throw-in games at numerous golf courses/clubs. All of the good ones had pay outs for low net scores or stableford points. If you don't have that element as part of your game convene a meeting, make the case, and have it become part of your culture. You'll be way better off in the long run.

* As per above, some of us here in the US do play almost every posted round in a competitive situation. I play most rounds at home within a group of 12 - 30 players depending on the day. While we do not exchange scorecards, typically at least 2 cards are kept within each group and even the guys not keeping score with a card often know where the other guys are in relation to par or handicap. After 9 and after the round we typically say "I have you for 38 on that side" or "I have you for 75, correct?" - for each player. They then post their own score after play. Most use the GHIN app. We go in and calculate the throw-in game and settle bets. Low net is part of the throw in game and some guys have stroke play nassau bets with up to 6 or 7 other guys playing that day. Most are auto press on 10 and either $2, $5, or $10 bets. The handicaps in our group are pretty good. We have had some baggers types join over the years and their handicaps come down pretty quickly. It's pretty simple: the game makes you play hard all the time.

* Honor/Integrity: Maybe it's there - but I am not aware of it - does the USGA/R&A go into detail regarding the role of a marker ouside of the definition listed in the rules? From time to time we have had issues with markers not doing a good job. They tend to be self-absorbed and do not pay enough attention to the player for whom they are keeping score. They just write dwon whatever his FC says. I don't mean to say that the marker should be stalking his FC, but he should at least be paying attention to him/her and keeping track of the number of strokes taken in order to protect the field. And perhaps something should be in there not to sign if you cannot in fact attest the score? It's like we just assume this is being done but sometimes it is not. People are afraid of being "that guy" or looking like some "rules stickler." Be cheerful but pay attention. People can make honest mistakes on the number taken especially when they are having a bad hole. Same goes for the "peer review" process. Check up on the guys in your groups from time to time using the GHIN app. It's easy to do. Sometimes guys forget to adjust scores properly and so on. Timely posting of scores will become more important next year as well.

 

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > > >

> > > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

> >

> > This describes what I meant by criminalizing single round posting earlier. You took a perfectly legal and ok behavior , and made it illegal. Did the single who posted accurate scores become dishonest overnight if he continues to posit his only scores ? I don’t think so. Calling someone dishonest is a very tricky thing. Man made arbitrary rules do not always make for a good measuring stick.

>

> That player has specifically chosen to disobey a rule that he disagrees with. Without knowing anything about his game, and how he performs with others in a 5-hour competitive situation, dealing with other personalities as well as a different pace of play, there is a significant potential he has skewed his handicap, as compared to what it would be if he posted by the rules. He may have gained an advantage, he may have lost strokes, we don't know, but he's **chosen** to base his handicap differently than mine or yours. That's simply wrong, in my opinion. And the rule change didn't make him a cheater, his refusal to change his behavior to comply with the new rule is what did that.

>

> We had a bunch of rules changes this past January, and a lot of people disagreed with some of those changes. Are you OK with players refusing to follow THOSE rules too? Is it OK if a player drops from shoulder height, and watches his ball roll 7 or 8 feet to where he has a clean shot, and then play the ball when he's competing against you? There's really no difference if you're playing a net game of any kind. His choice to ignore the current rule might get him an advantage, it might no., but he's still broken the rules.

>

> For your last point, the stated purpose of the handicap system is to "make the game of golf more enjoyable by enabling players of differing abilities to compete on an equitable basis." Lots of people use it for additional purposes. In the situation you mention, the organizers of the tournaments have used it to separate players into those who have the potential to compete at a certain minimum level from those who don't. Just because I use a screwdriver to punch holes in cans doesn't mean its purpose isn't to screw things in..

 

Ask yourself this.

 

At what point during posting a score is the question asked “ who attested your score today “?

 

What constitutes playing alone ? How many holes must you have a chaperone? You’re literally willing to call a single who plays it down and in the hole a cheat if he posts , and yet thousands upon thousands of stroke play rounds with a group are posted daily that include breakfast balls , multiple gimmes , etc. don’t you see the hypocrisy? Not meaning you personally as you didn’t write the rule. Just in general. I enjoyed learning the game alone. And I guess I take it personally that the single is yet again kicked. The single has always been and will be the red headed step child , why are their scores now illegitimate , when the vast majority of scores posted include at least one element that contradicts the rules . Given putts are not legal unless it’s a match play situation , and you and I both know that’s the unspoken truth for every group anywhere. Putts are given by more than most.

[HatsForBats]

> @Augster said:

> > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > > >

> > > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

> >

> > Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

> >

> > But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

>

> As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

 

While I agree that **possibly** your index should only be made up of scores that are 'with and against others' the against part is not required for posting a score, only the with. With **AND** Against is a lot diffrent than **ONLY** With in my book. Casual rounds with others are much more 'like for like' to solo rounds in my opinion.

 

[davep043]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Augster said:

> > As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

>

> While I agree that **possibly** your index should only be made up of scores that are 'with and against others' the against part is not required for posting a score, only the with. With **AND** Against is a lot diffrent than **ONLY** With in my book. Casual rounds with others are much more 'like for like' to solo rounds in my opinion.

>

The "against" portion of that would mean only competitive rounds could be posted for handicaps, and that would have been much to large a restriction, based on the previous requirement to post all scores. This step moved the USGA towards the remainder of the world without being too drastic. And really, are we still discussing a nearly 4-year old change? The OP asked a specific question about the effect of the change, one that seems applicable, but the conversation has morphed back into the same discussions that were had in early 2016. I'm as guilty as anyone in that, so I'll refrain going forward.

 

So back to the OP, I'd say that the change does slow the responsiveness of the system for players who don't play a lot of golf with other people. It works both ways, when a player is improving as well as when his game is deteriorating. But I'd never apply the term "sandbagger" to anyone who follows the rules as written.

 

[bortass]

I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

[bladehunter]

> @bortass said:

> I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

 

Exactly.

 

No need for apology. It’s a valid discussion to have. Still.

 

And your point is very well taken. 4 years into it and we can see no difference to the positive. Hmm.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @bortass said:

> > I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

>

> Exactly.

>

> No need for apology. It’s a valid discussion to have. Still.

>

> And your point is very well taken. 4 years into it and we can see no difference to the positive. Hmm.

 

If there's any value in unifying handicap systems worldwide (and I believe there is), this was a small step towards that end. The changes coming in the next year (January 1 for us in the US) will mark another step in that direction. Do we see a difference that is negative? I agree, some players handicap is slower to reach to changes, perhaps that is a casualty of the change, but that's a pretty small number of golfers affected.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @bortass said:

> > > I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

> >

> > Exactly.

> >

> > No need for apology. It’s a valid discussion to have. Still.

> >

> > And your point is very well taken. 4 years into it and we can see no difference to the positive. Hmm.

>

> If there's any value in unifying handicap systems worldwide (and I believe there is), this was a small step towards that end. The changes coming in the next year (January 1 for us in the US) will mark another step in that direction. Do we see a difference that is negative? I agree, some players handicap is slower to reach to changes, perhaps that is a casualty of the change, but that's a pretty small number of golfers affected.

 

It’s just seems to be fluff to me. A fix in search of an issue. If they wanted to truly fix it , they’d have went straight to competition only posting. Or a bifurcated posting of comp only and rec rounds only.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @bortass said:

> > > > I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

> > >

> > > Exactly.

> > >

> > > No need for apology. It’s a valid discussion to have. Still.

> > >

> > > And your point is very well taken. 4 years into it and we can see no difference to the positive. Hmm.

> >

> > If there's any value in unifying handicap systems worldwide (and I believe there is), this was a small step towards that end. The changes coming in the next year (January 1 for us in the US) will mark another step in that direction. Do we see a difference that is negative? I agree, some players handicap is slower to reach to changes, perhaps that is a casualty of the change, but that's a pretty small number of golfers affected.

>

> It’s just seems to be fluff to me. A fix in search of an issue. If they wanted to truly fix it , they’d have went straight to competition only posting. Or a bifurcated posting of comp only and rec rounds only.

 

Aaahhh, but you generally do see many issues in black and white. To me, this looks like a gradual lightening of a gray area (if I make a true worldwide system the white end of the spectrum).

[Hawkeye77]

After reading more, and just IMO, seems like a better discussion than we had in the past! A discussion the depth of which I suggest never happened at the USGA on this issue.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @bortass said:

> > > > > I apologize for the can of worms I reopened with my poorly worded question. I had hoped that since the rule has been in place for almost 4 years people would have noticed some sort of change in the landscape. Otherwise why make the change?

> > > >

> > > > Exactly.

> > > >

> > > > No need for apology. It’s a valid discussion to have. Still.

> > > >

> > > > And your point is very well taken. 4 years into it and we can see no difference to the positive. Hmm.

> > >

> > > If there's any value in unifying handicap systems worldwide (and I believe there is), this was a small step towards that end. The changes coming in the next year (January 1 for us in the US) will mark another step in that direction. Do we see a difference that is negative? I agree, some players handicap is slower to reach to changes, perhaps that is a casualty of the change, but that's a pretty small number of golfers affected.

> >

> > It’s just seems to be fluff to me. A fix in search of an issue. If they wanted to truly fix it , they’d have went straight to competition only posting. Or a bifurcated posting of comp only and rec rounds only.

>

> Aaahhh, but you generally do see many issues in black and white. To me, this looks like a gradual lightening of a gray area (if I make a true worldwide system the white end of the spectrum).

 

Yea. And I get that. It’s funny. I see grey as reality on most things. But I guess I’m part idealist too in that I wish we saw more black and white. But this , I don’t know. It’s really really just meh. Almost no color at all. Lol.

 

Handicaps will never truly work until we have to certify them with markers or committee or both.

 

I just finished researching my biggest sandbaggers recent scores. I have him on the tee sheet for an average of 3 rounds a week for last 2 months. And I’ve played with him last two saturday dogfights. He shot

69 -71 last two weeks. He’s currently a 4.9 cap and last score posted was 10/18 and it was an 82. He’s played at least 12 rounds since then. I heard him bragging that he was 7 under through 8 in the Tuesday evening men’s night , before dropping several shots on the back to shoot 68.

 

What can you legally do ? He pays dues as a full member. He’s been red carded by the USGA several times. And he always pumps it back up. If scores had to be certified he’d have no choice. These are the guys they need to be worry about. Not the guy sneaking in a solo 9 between appointments.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

 

>

> I just finished researching my biggest sandbaggers recent scores. I have him on the tee sheet for an average of 3 rounds a week for last 2 months. And I’ve played with him last two saturday dogfights. He shot

> 69 -71 last two weeks. He’s currently a 4.9 cap and last score posted was 10/18 and it was an 82. **He’s played at least 12 rounds since then.** I heard him bragging that he was 7 under through 8 in the Tuesday evening men’s night , before dropping several shots on the back to shoot 68.

>

> **What can you legally do **? He pays dues as a full member. He’s been red carded by the USGA several times. And he always pumps it back up. If scores had to be certified he’d have no choice.

Well, as the Handicap Committee, you can post penalty scores, that might get his attention if you post a dozen at 68 or so:

>2) Post a penalty score equal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the player's scoring record;

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

>

> >

> > I just finished researching my biggest sandbaggers recent scores. I have him on the tee sheet for an average of 3 rounds a week for last 2 months. And I’ve played with him last two saturday dogfights. He shot

> > 69 -71 last two weeks. He’s currently a 4.9 cap and last score posted was 10/18 and it was an 82. **He’s played at least 12 rounds since then.** I heard him bragging that he was 7 under through 8 in the Tuesday evening men’s night , before dropping several shots on the back to shoot 68.

> >

> > **What can you legally do **? He pays dues as a full member. He’s been red carded by the USGA several times. And he always pumps it back up. If scores had to be certified he’d have no choice.

> Well, as the Handicap Committee, you can post penalty scores, that might get his attention if you post a dozen at 68 or so:

> >2) Post a penalty score equal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the player's scoring record;

>

>

 

Yep. That’s exactly what I’m going to try to get to a vote. At least the last two weeks real scores that I witnessed plus the 68. We did that to the same guy last year and caused a week long WW3. Basically with him naming other cheats and two of them leaving. Lol. He wasn’t wrong in naming others , just wrong in being one too. It’s nearly to the point of burning down the barn to get rid of the rats.

[hahanice]

hot take, but i typically improve a ton when not allowed to post. i went from about a 21 to an 8 while literally only playing alone (i kept a cap in the grint for fun which dropped to 8, but my real USGA cap stayed at 21 because I wasnt posting). During this time I was HIGHLY competitive in club competitions.

 

As I was playing more in competition I got to know the guys at my club, who are the greatest people in the world, and started playing with them regularly. which meant posting everything. My real cap plummeted and i came back down to earth in competition.

 

I then began to see significant improvements by playing with other good golfers. Nothing whips you into shape like playing with guys shooting 73 every day. Well over the winters where we cant post we were out there every day, and my fake cap dropped down to what would be about 3. Same thing happened to start the season, I was highly competitive then came back down to earth as my cap dropped.

 

It then became very hard to compete the lower i got. feeling good about 75 in a tourney, then coming in to see someone shot a 85 to finish net -12 hurts.

 

I personally think I should be able to post everything. I play with randoms all the time now (had to move) and no one has any idea what I'm shooting. First time i broke par here which was a crazy cool day for me, someone asked if I broke 90...

[Irishman1979]

> @bortass said:

> I haven't played in years and found out today that solo players are not supposed to post solo rounds. I saw the part that if someone is with you for enough holes, even if they are not playing, that you can post the score. Here's the hypothetical in my head.

>

> When I did play a lot, I maintained an index but a good portion of my round were truly solo. My last active USGA index, probably around 2013, was a 30.3 from lack of play. I once had it down to 19 and change when I played quite a bit. Say I start playing again( no idea what index would start at or if it's irrelevant with the WHS in 2020) but let's use the 30.3 for now. I should improve over time as I play more but I won't be able to post all of my scores. That makes me think my index will be higher than it should and I'll look like a sandbagger.

>

> I understand that the course rating committee, maybe even the competition committee, can adjust a player's HCP for an event. But I would only expect this if the player is at their home course. So I play a tournament at a public course nearby and they pull my current index from the USGA. The index is legit but I am more likely to be able to play under it, which isn't the original intent I assume.

>

> Since it's been a few years with this system in place, what have people seen? Has the number of actual sandbaggers gone down? Are there more ' accidental sandbaggers', because they can't post solo scores?

>

> I'm just curious( but also bummed that I won't be able to post scores like I used to, lol).

 

LOL what a bunch of bs when it comes to this rule. Be honest and post every round you play no matter if its by yourself or with someone else. This game is based on integrity and honesty and if the USGA actually thinks this rule is a a good one then they are not setting a good example. Anyone who cheats is just cheating themselves out of knowing how good they are to be honest with you. I'll continue to post scores if I'm out playing by myself because I don't improve my lie, I don't take mulligans and I don't cheat. The USGA can take this rule and shove it up their a$$.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @bortass said:

> > I haven't played in years and found out today that solo players are not supposed to post solo rounds. I saw the part that if someone is with you for enough holes, even if they are not playing, that you can post the score. Here's the hypothetical in my head.

> >

> > When I did play a lot, I maintained an index but a good portion of my round were truly solo. My last active USGA index, probably around 2013, was a 30.3 from lack of play. I once had it down to 19 and change when I played quite a bit. Say I start playing again( no idea what index would start at or if it's irrelevant with the WHS in 2020) but let's use the 30.3 for now. I should improve over time as I play more but I won't be able to post all of my scores. That makes me think my index will be higher than it should and I'll look like a sandbagger.

> >

> > I understand that the course rating committee, maybe even the competition committee, can adjust a player's HCP for an event. But I would only expect this if the player is at their home course. So I play a tournament at a public course nearby and they pull my current index from the USGA. The index is legit but I am more likely to be able to play under it, which isn't the original intent I assume.

> >

> > Since it's been a few years with this system in place, what have people seen? Has the number of actual sandbaggers gone down? Are there more ' accidental sandbaggers', because they can't post solo scores?

> >

> > I'm just curious( but also bummed that I won't be able to post scores like I used to, lol).

>

> LOL what a bunch of bs when it comes to this rule. Be honest and post every round you play no matter if its by yourself or with someone else. This game is based on integrity and honesty and if the USGA actually thinks this rule is a a good one then they are not setting a good example. **Anyone who cheats is just cheating themselves out of knowing how good they are to be honest with you**. I'll continue to post scores if I'm out playing by myself because I don't improve my lie, I don't take mulligans and I don't cheat. The USGA can take this rule and shove it up their a$$.

 

The honest 5 handicapper who just shot a differential of 1 in a net tournament but lost to an 18 who shot a differential of 6 would probably not agree with the bold part.

 

dave

[Irishman1979]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @bortass said:

> > > I haven't played in years and found out today that solo players are not supposed to post solo rounds. I saw the part that if someone is with you for enough holes, even if they are not playing, that you can post the score. Here's the hypothetical in my head.

> > >

> > > When I did play a lot, I maintained an index but a good portion of my round were truly solo. My last active USGA index, probably around 2013, was a 30.3 from lack of play. I once had it down to 19 and change when I played quite a bit. Say I start playing again( no idea what index would start at or if it's irrelevant with the WHS in 2020) but let's use the 30.3 for now. I should improve over time as I play more but I won't be able to post all of my scores. That makes me think my index will be higher than it should and I'll look like a sandbagger.

> > >

> > > I understand that the course rating committee, maybe even the competition committee, can adjust a player's HCP for an event. But I would only expect this if the player is at their home course. So I play a tournament at a public course nearby and they pull my current index from the USGA. The index is legit but I am more likely to be able to play under it, which isn't the original intent I assume.

> > >

> > > Since it's been a few years with this system in place, what have people seen? Has the number of actual sandbaggers gone down? Are there more ' accidental sandbaggers', because they can't post solo scores?

> > >

> > > I'm just curious( but also bummed that I won't be able to post scores like I used to, lol).

> >

> > LOL what a bunch of bs when it comes to this rule. Be honest and post every round you play no matter if its by yourself or with someone else. This game is based on integrity and honesty and if the USGA actually thinks this rule is a a good one then they are not setting a good example. **Anyone who cheats is just cheating themselves out of knowing how good they are to be honest with you**. I'll continue to post scores if I'm out playing by myself because I don't improve my lie, I don't take mulligans and I don't cheat. The USGA can take this rule and shove it up their a$$.

>

> The honest 5 handicapper who just shot a differential of 1 in a net tournament but lost to an 18 who shot a differential of 6 would probably not agree with the bold part.

>

> dave

 

I do not play in net tournaments, never have, never will. Have no interest in sand bagging either. When I'm on the course no matter if I'm alone or with a group I always play the ball as it lies, putt everything out, never take mulligans. I can't look at myself in the mirror unless I play an honest game. If I shoot 81 or 71 I always post my score. For example this year a guy wanted me to take a mulligan and I refused.

[davep043]

> @Irishman1979 said:

>

> LOL what a bunch of bs when it comes to this rule. Be honest and post every round you play no matter if its by yourself or with someone else. This game is based on integrity and honesty and if the USGA actually thinks this rule is a a good one then they are not setting a good example. Anyone who cheats is just cheating themselves out of knowing how good they are to be honest with you. I'll continue to post scores if I'm out playing by myself because I don't improve my lie, I don't take mulligans and **I don't cheat**. The USGA can take this rule and shove it up their a$$.

 

To me, to cheat is to intentionally disobey a rule. To intentionally disobey the rules around handicap posting is to cheat. I find it ludicrous that anyone would claim to be virtuous based on his disobedience to the rules. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with the decision by the USGA, but that disagreement doesn't excuse breaking the rule. Lots of people disagree with the new rules for dropping a ball, but if they choose to drop from shoulder height, they are cheating. Same for posting rounds that the USGA doesn't allow to be posted.

 

Now if you never ever play in any kind of net situation, you don't need a handicap. Don't post any of your rounds, don't keep an official handicap, that's the only way to do this correctly. And if you follow my suggestion, you'll avoid giving the hated USGA your money, saving the fee for your handicap.

[Irishman1979]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> >

> > LOL what a bunch of bs when it comes to this rule. Be honest and post every round you play no matter if its by yourself or with someone else. This game is based on integrity and honesty and if the USGA actually thinks this rule is a a good one then they are not setting a good example. Anyone who cheats is just cheating themselves out of knowing how good they are to be honest with you. I'll continue to post scores if I'm out playing by myself because I don't improve my lie, I don't take mulligans and **I don't cheat**. The USGA can take this rule and shove it up their a$$.

>

> To me, to cheat is to intentionally disobey a rule. To intentionally disobey the rules around handicap posting is to cheat. I find it ludicrous that anyone would claim to be virtuous based on his disobedience to the rules. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with the decision by the USGA, but that disagreement doesn't excuse breaking the rule. Lots of people disagree with the new rules for dropping a ball, but if they choose to drop from shoulder height, they are cheating. Same for posting rounds that the USGA doesn't allow to be posted.

>

> Now if you never ever play in any kind of net situation, you don't need a handicap. Don't post any of your rounds, don't keep an official handicap, that's the only way to do this correctly. And if you follow my suggestion, you'll avoid giving the hated USGA your money, saving the fee for your handicap.

 

I don't sandbagg, never have never will. Nor do I play in tournaments based on net scores.

 

When I play golf I count all my strokes, never improve lies, if I hit one OB I re-tee I don't even go by the new rule where you don't have to take stroke and distance which I do not agree with the new rule on.

 

I never understood the reasoning behind lying about your score and sandbagging. It makes no sense to me why you would want to play golf knowing you are dishonest about your playing ability.

 

This is why I do not play NET events.

 

If someone wants to play me straight up bring it on, I'll play you and have you put your money where your mouth is.

[davep043]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> I don't sandbagg, never have never will. Nor do I play in tournaments based on net scores.

>

> When I play golf I count all my strokes, never improve lies, if I hit one OB I re-tee I don't even go by the new rule where you don't have to take stroke and distance which I do not agree with the new rule on.

>

> I never understood the reasoning behind lying about your score and sandbagging. It makes no sense to me why you would want to play golf knowing you are dishonest about your playing ability.

>

> This is why I do not play NET events.

>

> If someone wants to play me straight up bring it on, I'll play you and have you put your money where your mouth is.

 

All of that is fine. You don't need a handicap, you won't use a handicap, so don't post scores, don't maintain a handicap. That way you'll be following the rules there just as you follow the rules when you play.

[Irishman1979]

> @Augster said:

> > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Bebsport678 said:

> > > > > I think it’s dumb you can’t post solo rounds. Especially when the USGA preaches that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. It’s all so backwards.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes I post every round, solo or not

> > > >

> > > > That's priceless. You want to be allowed to post solo rounds because your integrity should be trusted. You are not allowed to but do so anyway, thereby breaking the rules and putting your integrity in question. You've made my day!

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm with you completely. I can understand complaints about the rule based on "integrity", even if I disagree. But for someone to complain that they don't trust him to play and post by the rules, and then go on to say essentially that he cannot be trusted to post by the rules, just seems pretty foolish.

> >

> > Haha fair point here I suppose. I guess I should’ve also mentioned that 75% of my rounds every year are solo. I play weekday mornings so I’m on my own quite a bit. Should I truly not be allowed to post all those rounds? (Genuine question)

> >

> > But aside from what I do personally, don’t you guys think it’s funny that USGA spends all this money to have commercials about integrity and then turn around and not allow solo rounds?

>

> No. You shouldn’t post all those rounds. You should find at least one friend to play with.

>

> As has been said above, plenty, it’s not about integrity. It’s about posting scores while playing with others. Like for like. The only time you’ll need a cap is when you are playing with and against others. Therefore your cap should be made up of scores that are played with and against others.

>

> The USGA is doing solo players a favor. Solo players are likely going to post better scores playing by themselves if they get to post solo scores. These better scores will basically give the player a vanity cap as it’s way more than likely they wouldn’t be able to play to that reduced index in a competition.

>

> Yet, all we hear from solo posters is “I’m going to post anyway” or “The USGA is questioning my integrity” blah blah blah. Where, in reality, solo posters should be thanking the USGA that they get to practice for free and not have those solo scores count against their index when they are slogging through a 5-hour competitive round that is NOTHING like the majority of their solo scores where they breeze through by themselves in 3 hours with no waiting or distractions.

>

 

Give me a break! I've been playing golf for many years and at a very high level and trust me golf is golf. Just because someone plays solo doesn't mean it becomes any easier to put the ball in the cup.

 

Take this rule and tell the USGA to shove it up their @ss. I will never follow it and many will do the same.

 

What you shoot is what you shoot, no matter if its with another player or by yourself. You count all rounds you play! You count every shot. If you are having a bad day you finish your round! Thats how it is!

 

Also guess what? I can't take this rule seriously for the fact that as long as you have someone riding in your cart you can post a score? So that means I could put a person that has no comprehension of the rules and then that qualifies to be able to post a score? LOL That is a freaking joke! This rule is a joke and I feel sorry for anyone who follows it. The USGA would never ever be able to know if you played solo or not. I'm not planning on lying about my score either and never have cheated. As a junior golfer I spent many rounds on my own in the summer playing 54 or 72 holes a day. Always posted my scores and I will continue to do the same for the future.

 

 

[Irishman1979]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > I don't sandbagg, never have never will. Nor do I play in tournaments based on net scores.

> >

> > When I play golf I count all my strokes, never improve lies, if I hit one OB I re-tee I don't even go by the new rule where you don't have to take stroke and distance which I do not agree with the new rule on.

> >

> > I never understood the reasoning behind lying about your score and sandbagging. It makes no sense to me why you would want to play golf knowing you are dishonest about your playing ability.

> >

> > This is why I do not play NET events.

> >

> > If someone wants to play me straight up bring it on, I'll play you and have you put your money where your mouth is.

>

> All of that is fine. You don't need a handicap, you won't use a handicap, so don't post scores, don't maintain a handicap. That way you'll be following the rules there just as you follow the rules when you play.

 

Sorry to break it to your Mr. Policeman but I'm going to play by myself in the woods and post my scores :)

 

Thats how its going to be for the rest of my life.