Are you allowed to create a small mound on the tee box to hit from?

[tungstenplug]

.

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

>

> What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

 

In this context, it could be said "with good results"

 

"Tiger used his putter to great effect in shooting 64"

= Tiger's putter use brought him good results in shooting 64

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

>

> What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

 

It could be the old idea of compressing/trapping/pinching the ball off the turf. Which doesn’t really happen.

[Mr. Bean]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> >

> > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

>

> It could be the old idea of compressing/trapping/pinching the ball off the turf. Which doesn’t really happen.

 

That old idea is a myth, and I renew my question: What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

[LeoLeo99]

Wow, did this thread go off the rails.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> >

> > It could be the old idea of compressing/trapping/pinching the ball off the turf. Which doesn’t really happen.

>

> That old idea is a myth, and I renew my question: What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

 

Why are you so interested when Davies herself said in the video that she doesn’t know why she does this (after earlier describing the ball flight implications!)? Seems like something one can relax about.

[Newby]

> @antip said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > Sure, but I don't see any link to her results.

> >

> > Nothing special- just a Hall of Farmer....most all time wins on the LET and 20 wins on the lpga.

>

> not her pre-shot teeing area habit of rearranging the surface of the ground.

 

And you confirmed this with her?

Do think she is not bright enough to have worked out what her most effective procedure is?

[HitEmTrue]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> Wow, did this thread go off the rails.

 

There really isn’t anything else (as far as I can see) on the original topic...anything wrong with side discussion?

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> >

> > It could be the old idea of compressing/trapping/pinching the ball off the turf. Which doesn’t really happen.

>

> That old idea is a myth, and I renew my question: What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

 

That doesn’t mean that everyone knows it’s a myth...Johnny Miller called it a trap draw until the day he stopped broadcasting, even though nothing was trapped.

 

Or maybe those doing it have created habits they don’t care to change.

 

[antip]

> @Newby said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > > >

> > > > Sure, but I don't see any link to her results.

> > >

> > > Nothing special- just a Hall of Farmer....most all time wins on the LET and 20 wins on the lpga.

> >

> > not her pre-shot teeing area habit of rearranging the surface of the ground.

>

> And you confirmed this with her?

> Do think she is not bright enough to have worked out what her most effective procedure is?

 

I really do not understand the mission you are on here. Watch the twitter link. She says clearly she doesn't know why she does it. I have continued to express the view that her considerable success is a function of golfing prowess unrelated to how she digs up the tee prior to teeing off.

[Shilgy]

If the player believes it helps...then it helps. There is no proving otherwise. Belief is an extremely powerful tool in this game.

[antip]

> @Shilgy said:

> If the player believes it helps...then it helps. There is no proving otherwise. Belief is an extremely powerful tool in this game.

 

I know, I know. I really believe that her considerable success is a function of golfing prowess unrelated to how she digs up the tee prior to teeing off.

[Newby]

> @antip said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > If the player believes it helps...then it helps. There is no proving otherwise. Belief is an extremely powerful tool in this game.

>

> I know, I know. I really believe that her considerable success is a function of golfing prowess unrelated to how she digs up the tee prior to teeing off.

 

But do you believe that her success would have been greater or less if she had used a tee? ;)

 

Incidentally, I reckon she does far less damage that those players who take divots on a par3 tee.

[antip]

> @Newby said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > If the player believes it helps...then it helps. There is no proving otherwise. Belief is an extremely powerful tool in this game.

> >

> > I know, I know. I really believe that her considerable success is a function of golfing prowess unrelated to how she digs up the tee prior to teeing off.

>

> But do you believe that her success would have been greater or less if she had used a tee? ;)

>

>

I have absolutely no reason to believe she would have had more or less success in an alternate tee-using world.

[dpb5031]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

>

> What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

 

@"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

 

Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

 

For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

 

Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

 

So there's 4 reasons right there

[Mr. Bean]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> >

> > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

>

> @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

>

> Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

>

> For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

>

> Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

>

> So there's 4 reasons right there

 

1. Hitting balls from the grass on a driving range to simulate the real situation on the course does not mean raising the turf as you cannot do that anywhere else than in the teeing area. So why change the routine?

2. The height of grass on a teeing ground is far too low to get any grass between the ball and the club.

3. Using a tee in this context would be just to replace the raised turf, i.e. the elevation would be exactly the same. Thus the need to scoop would be created in player's own mind and is based in no need to do that any more than doing it when hitting a ball from raised turf.

4. That seems to go in the category already mentioned by someone in this thread, that is 'what feels good is good'. So again, no rational reason to do one or the other, just a gut feeling.

 

So there are no real reasons, just a habit.

[dpb5031]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> >

> > @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

> >

> > Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

> >

> > For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

> >

> > Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

> >

> > So there's 4 reasons right there

>

> 1. Hitting balls from the grass on a driving range to simulate the real situation on the course does not mean raising the turf as you cannot do that anywhere else than in the teeing area. So why change the routine?

> 2. The height of grass on a teeing ground is far too low to get any grass between the ball and the club.

> 3. Using a tee in this context would be just to replace the raised turf, i.e. the elevation would be exactly the same. Thus the need to scoop would be created in player's own mind and is based in no need to do that any more than doing it when hitting a ball from raised turf.

> 4. That seems to go in the category already mentioned by someone in this thread, that is 'what feels good is good'. So again, no rational reason to do one or the other, just a gut feeling.

>

> So there are no real reasons, just a habit.

 

Well, I guess you know better that several major champions? Lol?

 

 

[sui generis]

The question was answered in post #2. The subsequent posts are opinions; there's more than one way to bake a cake . . . .

[Mr. Bean]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > > >

> > > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> > >

> > > @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

> > >

> > > Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

> > >

> > > For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

> > >

> > > Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

> > >

> > > So there's 4 reasons right there

> >

> > 1. Hitting balls from the grass on a driving range to simulate the real situation on the course does not mean raising the turf as you cannot do that anywhere else than in the teeing area. So why change the routine?

> > 2. The height of grass on a teeing ground is far too low to get any grass between the ball and the club.

> > 3. Using a tee in this context would be just to replace the raised turf, i.e. the elevation would be exactly the same. Thus the need to scoop would be created in player's own mind and is based in no need to do that any more than doing it when hitting a ball from raised turf.

> > 4. That seems to go in the category already mentioned by someone in this thread, that is 'what feels good is good'. So again, no rational reason to do one or the other, just a gut feeling.

> >

> > So there are no real reasons, just a habit.

>

> Well, I guess you know better that several major champions? Lol?

>

>

 

I was only responding to your '4 reasons'.

 

As soon as you get an answer from any of those major champions what they believe they benefit from that habit, do let us know. I am not holding my breath, though...

 

EDIT: Oh, I forgot. LOL

 

EDIT2: And I believe it is 'than' and not 'that'. (Well, I guess you know better **that** several major champions?)

[dpb5031]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > > > >

> > > > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> > > >

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

> > > >

> > > > Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

> > > >

> > > > For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

> > > >

> > > > Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

> > > >

> > > > So there's 4 reasons right there

> > >

> > > 1. Hitting balls from the grass on a driving range to simulate the real situation on the course does not mean raising the turf as you cannot do that anywhere else than in the teeing area. So why change the routine?

> > > 2. The height of grass on a teeing ground is far too low to get any grass between the ball and the club.

> > > 3. Using a tee in this context would be just to replace the raised turf, i.e. the elevation would be exactly the same. Thus the need to scoop would be created in player's own mind and is based in no need to do that any more than doing it when hitting a ball from raised turf.

> > > 4. That seems to go in the category already mentioned by someone in this thread, that is 'what feels good is good'. So again, no rational reason to do one or the other, just a gut feeling.

> > >

> > > So there are no real reasons, just a habit.

> >

> > Well, I guess you know better that several major champions? Lol?

> >

> >

>

> I was only responding to your '4 reasons'.

>

> As soon as you get an answer from any of those major champions what they believe they benefit from that habit, do let us know. I am not holding my breath, though...

>

> EDIT: Oh, I forgot. LOL

>

> EDIT2: And I believe it is 'than' and not 'that'. (Well, I guess you know better **that** several major champions?)

 

Sorry @"Mr. Bean" , I responded quickly from my phone...fat fingers and failing eyes equals the occasional typo...lol...but thanks for pointing out my error!

 

I'm perceiving an argumentative tone, but I'll play along. Somewhere above in this thread you questioned why a player might employ this practice. I provided some reasons. Just because you don't agree with them or they don't make sense to you doesn't mean they're not valid to others.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating the practice, but I don't agree with your rebuttals either. In the first case, relative to Trevino's statement, many people ensure they have an optimal lie on the turf while practicing by just barely propping the ball up on the front or back edge of a divot. This can be simulated on the tee box by propping the ball up on turf to the degree desired, using an existing divot or by creating one with your club or shoe heel. Trevino's statement stands as accurate and potentially a legitimate reason to do so, whether one agrees that it's a good idea to forego the perceived advantage of an actual tee, or not.

 

In terms of reducing spin, I don't agree with you that the grass on a tee box is too short to be an influence. It would depend again on how you set the ball and perhaps the type of grass/turf on the teeing ground, but It doesn't take much material between club face and ball to reduce spin. This may be an advantage to a highly skilled player who knows how to set it up.

 

Further, if a player swings at the ball differently when the ball is on a tuft of turf rather than on a tee, in my view that's 100% a valid reason, not simply a habit. If it works reliably and produces better results than the alternative, even if it's completely subconscious/psychological, that'd still be enough of a reason to continue to do it.

 

Finally, try hitting draws with your driver off of the deck and let me know how you make out. It's almost impossible without hitting a grounder, so instinctively good players will hit little bullet fades with very low risk of a double cross. It's not for everyone, but again, it is a legitimate reason for the player who prefers this method and has the skill to execute it reliably.

 

 

[dlygrisse]

> @mocokid said:

> Saw Trevino do it on a par 3 at Shinnecock years ago and adopted it, lots of pros do it.

 

I watched him do it once as well.

[BermBuster]

It's a visual cue. It helps me to stay down and make solid contact on 3 pars. My playing partner will hit a great 8 iron from the fairway, but tee it up on a 3 par, and more likely than not, he will hit a low hook or a low fade, and miss the green. As for damage to the course, I don't swing too deep, but that's just me. You should see some of the craters on the par 3's that the Men's Club leave. It's a tee box. It can take it.

[antip]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> >

> > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

>

> @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

>

> Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

>

> For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

>

> Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

>

> So there's 4 reasons right there

 

As Sui correctly points out, there's more than one way to bake a cake. My experience of professional sport is this - if one player comes up with a new approach that offers genuine advantages over the alternatives, they do not remain alone for long. Yep, works for Laura and the incredibly talented Lee T at times, but I'm not seeing a lot of love from the rest of the professional ranks on an ongoing basis. It's all just opinion here.

[dpb5031]

> @antip said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> >

> > @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

> >

> > Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

> >

> > For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

> >

> > Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

> >

> > So there's 4 reasons right there

>

> As Sui correctly points out, there's more than one way to bake a cake. My experience of professional sport is this - if one player comes up with a new approach that offers genuine advantages over the alternatives, they do not remain alone for long. Yep, works for Laura and the incredibly talented Lee T at times, but I'm not seeing a lot of love from the rest of the professional ranks on an ongoing basis. It's all just opinion here.

 

Perhaps a more appropriate word would be preference.

 

I listed a few "reasons" some players may maintain this preference, since it was previously dismissed as a a random and ineffective habit. @"Mr. Bean" even claimed it to be "childish," lol! I dont get that comment at all...

[Sparty4202]

Fred Couple does this on a lot of the par 3s. I do it all the time with a fairway wood or hybrid.

[denkea]

Sam Snead said, "Anytime you can put the ball on a peg, do it".

The biggest issue that I see is most tee the ball too high on par threes. There you now have created a shot requirement that is not normally played.

Use a tee but tee it low to grass height.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > Ms Davies used it to great effect.

> > >

> > > What does 'great effect' mean in this context? What kind of effect does it give a ball when it is being hit from a raised turf compared to a low tee?

> >

> > @"Mr. Bean" & @antip , I remember Trevino talking about why he would hit, especially short irons, from the tee box directly from the turf which he'd prop up as is being discussed. He said "ya practice on the range hitting balls directly from the turf, only using a tee for your driver. Placing the ball directly on the turf is consistent with what you've been practicing thousands of times on the range...why would ya want to change that on the course?"

> >

> > Some players also will prop the ball up on a piece of turf rather than a tee for shots into the wind. The idea being that it getting a small amount of grass between ball and clubface during the strike will knock some spin off the shot.

> >

> > For some players, hitting directly from the turf encourages a more aggressive downward strike as opposed to a "scoopier" type of swing when trying to clip the ball off of a tee.

> >

> > Last, some find it easier to hit a fade from a slight turf tee with driver, fairway woods, and hybrids than from an actual tee.

> >

> > So there's 4 reasons right there

>

> As Sui correctly points out, there's more than one way to bake a cake. My experience of professional sport is this - if one player comes up with a new approach that offers genuine advantages over the alternatives, they do not remain alone for long. Yep, works for Laura and the incredibly talented Lee T at times, but I'm not seeing a lot of love from the rest of the professional ranks on an ongoing basis. It's all just opinion here.

 

Indeed.

 

If that practice would be beneficial everyone would use it but that is not a case. It is a habit and based on belief, nothing wrong with that. Lots of things in top sports are like that, no subjective advantage whatsoever but as it feels right it is used (by individual athletes).

[Mr. Bean]

> @tbccgolfer said:

> Fred Couple does this on a lot of the par 3s. I do it all the time with a fairway wood or hybrid.

 

Why? Hitting the ground with a club does not produce a reproducible outcome unlike using a tee. So why make it more difficult?

 

Rational response, if I may.

[dpb5031]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @tbccgolfer said:

> > Fred Couple does this on a lot of the par 3s. I do it all the time with a fairway wood or hybrid.

>

> Why? Hitting the ground with a club does not produce a reproducible outcome unlike using a tee. So why make it more difficult?

>

> Rational response, if I may.

 

You're not making much sense. How does using a tee, in and of itself, lead to reproducible outcomes v. forgoing a tee? To my knowledge a player's swing and ball striking skills lead to reproducible outcomes, not the tee...lol!

 

I'd also like to know why you deem it "childish" for a player to forego a tee in certain circumstances? I'm further curious as to why this issue apparently sticks in your craw?

 

You're claiming it's just habit Do you not think that the world class players who choose to forego a tee under certain circumstances don't have ample enough experience using both methods to know which produces the results they're looking for out of a particular shot?

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

 

So why make it more difficult?

>

More difficult for whom?

I have had better results since using an 'earth' tee rather than a plastic one or no tee, when using an iron. Others may or may not find it difficult.