Calculating Net Double Bogey????

[Colin L]

The purpose of having a maximum score on a hole is to prevent blow-up holes having an undue effect on handicaps. NDB is the maximum score for handicapping universally in the WHS, applying equally to areas in which "most likely score" is used. . But estimating your score where it is in use is not an alternative to a maximum score of net double bogey. How do you know whether you need to work out your most likely score if you don't know what the maximum would be? If you don't know what your NDB is on a hole, how do you know the maximum? Whatever the merits of most likely score, it operates within the NDB maximum not instead of.

I spent much of my professional career managing change and recognised many familiar features of the effects of impending change as we faced the introduction of the 2019 Rule of Golf. I see the same features in the reaction to changes in handicapping in much of the discussion in this forum. One common resistance to prospective change is to find all sorts of supposed ways in which people will not operate a new set-up properly: the proposed system is at fault because some "people" are inefficient/incompetent/lazy/manipulative/dishonest, whatever.

Be assured, folks, that knowing your NDB on any given hole is easy. You may need a familiarisation period before you realise it is easy. You may have to make a few adjustments to your habits, like keeping a hole by hole note of your adjusted score, but that too quickly becomes so habitual you don't think twice about it.

Perhaps over here we have the advantage of being completely accustomed to NDB. But as change goes, would you, over there, prefer to tackle the sea change we have to get used to? Would you prefer explaining NDB to your fellow golfers or our task of explaining that we will no longer be getting the same number of strokes on whatever course we play and the function of handicap index and slope rating in giving us a handicap specific to each course?

Could there be a market in t-shirts bearing the legend NDB = Par + 2 + handicap stroke(s).

 

[Newby]

I support what Colin is saying.

I have been part of a team presenting at seminars on the WHS to handicap administrators from clubs around the country. Unfortunately, my national body never embraced Slope when the rest of GB&I took the USGA rating system on a dozen years or so ago. Just try explaining slope to 100 people who believe your handicap is your handicap wherever you play. And that they may have a lower Course Handicap on a course with a higher CR than one with a lower CR because the slope is lower.

But at least everyone seems to like the idea of averaging scores.

[dpb5031]

I agree entirely, most likely score is used "within the merits of NDB, not instead of..."

Same could be said of the previous ESC system though. If a 10 handicap player failed to finish a par 3 hole, he shouldn't automatically default to writing down the ESC score of 7, unless he in fact took 7 strokes in full effort before picking up.

In either case, estimating most likely score on incomplete holes is an important component for preventing artificially inflated scores.

[Sawgrass]

While Colin and you make fine points, I'd like to express my relief that the WHS doesn't require players to eat haggis. Try explaining that to people!

[nsxguy]

Colin. "Most likely score" and maximum/NDB are 2 entirely different things.You said yourself, "The purpose of having a maximum score on a hole is to prevent blow-up holes having an undue effect on handicaps"

If a guy picks up a 3 footer for par because his partner's already in, or he walks off the course after 14, you want to give him NDB(s) ?

[rogolf]

I don't think Colin said that. My reading of his post is that a player in the US would use "most likely score" up to net double bogey for handicap posting when he did not complete a hole.

[Halebopp]

@nsxguy Well, I didn't say it was a "requirement", but in SE Asia, most guys will usually pick up once they know they'll get 0 points. And most, even quite casual players, seem to know when that is."Useful" for match play ? Now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. LOLOf course it's not impossible to learn NDB but here in the States you have a large number of players who never bothered to learn about ESC so they're certainly not going to be bothered to learn a more difficult NDB. As Shilgy(?) mentioned they don't even keep score. It'll be up to the more experienced (& better ?) players in the group to guide them along so they post properly OR, as has been mentioned more than once, post HBH IF available. .But that raises a couple of other issues. Most of 'em have NEVER posted HBH, only a gross score - and I count myself among them as I didn't even know GHIN offered HBH scoring until about 3 weeks ago. LOLAnd how about the 4-somes where 1 guy typically handles the scoring ? What a nightmare for him trying to keep track of 4 different Chs so he can properly adjust a score higher than DB. Yikes Fortunately NDB doesn't come into play all that often.What you guys on the right side of the pond should keep in mind is that while you apparently play Stableford quite a bit, here in the States it's MUCH less common. I never even heard about Stableford until around 2013 when i made my first trip to SE Asia.

You didn't say it was a requirement but a fair share of posters here seem to be implying that. Also, the point they use it actively in SE Asia simply proves that it really isn't all that difficult to do if one wants to do so.
And yes, I would call stroke allocation useful or helpful information in net matches. If someone plays in a net match but can't be bothered to check who gets strokes and where, I have no issues with that person playing straight up in the net match or giving strokes on wrong holes. The player is only hurting himself/herself with the ignorance, nothing wrong with that.
If you can't post gross scores HBH, that's a problem with the USGA or the software provider, not with NDB itself. We also keep a single card for casual rounds and if someone wants to know their Stableford score for some reason and can't do the math in their head, they can check the scorecard for themselves. But give it a couple of months. and you'll figure it out. The guy with the card is only responsible for gross scores. But hopefully the USGA can fix their issues with HBH posting as that's by far the easiest way to do things.
And about Stableford, I play it a handful of times a year. All my casual rounds are stroke play or match play, Club Championships are naturally straight up, some weekly competitions are net stroke play in my flight and some Stableford. That being said, I do occasionally need to DQ myself from my casual stroke play round for failing to finish a hole and change to Stableford on the fly. Stableford is rare enough for me that I need to remind myself of the need to take risks to try and get that 1 point when needed. In a casual stroke play round I might not risk the really ugly number.

[Halebopp]

As per the handicapping rules, a player who plays only 14 holes is handed net pars for the final four holes (for handicapping purposes).

[nsxguy]

Well, perhaps you're right. Perhaps that's what he meant with "Whatever the merits of most likely score, it operates within the NDB maximum not instead of" ???

But he also said "But estimating your score where it is in use is not an alternative to a maximum score of net double bogey. How do you know whether you need to work out your most likely score if you don't know what the maximum would be? If you don't know what your NDB is on a hole, how do you know the maximum?"

Maybe he'll swing by again and explain a bit further.

[Colin L]

Swinging by!

If most likely score is in use, you record either your most likely score or a net double bogey whichever is the lower. My question is, how would you know which was the lower if you don't know what your NDB is on the hole in question? If you didn't, you might make the mistake of recording a likely score higher than NDB.

I meant that NDB is the maximum score everywhere. In most likely score areas you are allowed to record a lower score for handicap purposes. That option only exists within the general rule that no score can exceed NDB for handicapping,

 

[HitEmTrue]

What score gets recorded in area that is not most likely score? If it is NBD, that is what is bothersome.

 

[dpb5031]

Agreed. Great clarification....thanks!

[Imp]

While playing, dots identify the strokes you or your FC is getting on each hole when playing each other (the difference in each CH). I wouldn't change anything up with that and mark the card accordingly. (Usually we have used very few dots and used them to just identify the few holes difference). Example: if your CH is 15 and your FC is 11, just use the 4 dots on the 4 holes. WIth the new NDB, you can also get in the habit of pre-marking all the dots for everyone based on CH, and your FC is still going to have 4 fewer dots... just not as noticeable yet (but over time, they will be).

After the round, dots can identify the max score for each hole for HC. So, either this is when I'd dot each player's holes with their CH (if you used fewer dots above) or... they'd already be marked (using the latter method).. 0 dots - "2 over". 1 dot - "3 over". 2 dots - "4 over".

I did this with a few cards already, and marking all the holes beforehand simply saves time in the end, and still shows what stokes someone is getting on every hole. And... is an "in your face visual" to identify your NDB.

 

--kC

[Colin L]

As I said, NDB is the maximum score at any hole for handicapping everywhere. It certainly does not need to be bothersome even if for some it needs a little bit of work on making it familiar - as change usually does.

[HitEmTrue]

Previously, you said: "The rule for Associations not using "most likely score" is a simple statement that if you don't finish a hole you record a net double bogey or zero Stableford point. "

In a team competition, player A & B are on the same team. Player A is already in for a birdie, player B has a 10-foot birdie putt and picks up his ball. Their association doesn't use most likely score. He records a NDB for that hole? If so, that is the problem (maybe "bothersome" wasn't the best word) that others have brought up.

 

 

 

 

 

[Imp]

Check Handicapping Rule 3.3 (USGA). Player B would record Most Likely Score OR NDB, whichever is lower.

How often does Player B make a 10 foot putt on this hole? If Player B usually sinks them, score Par. If Player B usually 2 putts from there, score Bogey. (3.3 says anything out of 5 feet is 2-3 putts, I sometimes disagree with that, especially if a player is playing at home and knows the greens). Then again, it's a guideline, not a hard and fast rule.

Same scenario, but if Player B was there in 7 on a Par 3 and still had that 10 foot putt for an 8, and isn't getting a stroke... that's going to be NDB of 5. If Player b was GETTING a stroke, it would be a 6. 2 strokes? 7. Depends on how many strokes they're getting on that particular hole.

--kC

[HitEmTrue]

I thought that Colin was saying that some associations do NOT use most likely score for holes not completed.

 

[Imp]

I wonder if he was just allowing for that possibility instead of saying "everyone uses it" only to have someone post "... but we don't" later. ;) Absolutes and all that.

 

--kC

[davep043]

Some associations around the world will not allow posting of fourball or match play scores, they'll only accept stroke play or stableford scores. For those people, there won't be a need to use "most likely score". That's why its appropriate to include the phrase "if most likely score is in use...."

[Colin L]

Sorry if I have not been clear.

The maximum score at any hole for WHS handicapping is Net Double Bogey worldwide. Associations have the option of allowing scores below NDB to be estimated if the player has not holed out for a valid reason but that doesn't change the fact that the maximum is NDB. I don't know which Associations are implementing most likely score. CONGU isn't.

 

[Newby]

That is correct. Some associations do NOT use most likely score for holes not completed

[HitEmTrue]

Does CONGU allow posting of match-play rounds?

If not, then Dave's explanation, in the post right above yours, makes sense.

Those of us asking questions about most likely score haven't been concerned about the maximum. The concern is an inflated handicap because of holes not completed.

 

[Newby]

CONGU does not currently and will not initially with WHS. Similarly 4BBB.

But are likely to within a few years

[nsxguy]

Colin,

Hit 'em gave you a very specific scenario and you did not address it. I mentioned it earlier as well along with a guy shooting a really good round but, not caring about such things as personal bests, walks off after 14 holes because he knows he'll get NDB for the 4 holes not completed and that skew his round and put it outside of his 8 best.

Hit 'em asked about a 4-ball where the "Partner A" is in for birdie and "Partner B", with a 10 foot putt for birdie, picks it up and they go to the next tee.

 

So, for these "associations" who do not use "most likely score", is it a given they will not allow 4-balls to be posted ? Or is it possible 4-balls will count ?

And if the latter, what score do you give Player B from the above example ?

TIA

 

[nsxguy]

Sorry but I don't understand. Why not medal play ?

If MLS is not used, what's to prevent a guy in a medal event, who may have a pretty good score going but "knows" (or believes) he can't win, from picking up prematurely, just as the other 4-ball example,,,,,,, or walking off after 14 holes ?

[rogolf]

In some areas of the world, he will not have a postable score. Might I also suggest that in some areas of the world, the player's objective is to play well enough to get his handicap index lower, in other areas it seems the objective is just the opposite - to find ways to get a higher handicap index (at least for several players).

[ThinkingPlus]

LOL!

[nsxguy]

Most golfers I know are trying to get their handicaps as low as possible.

But the point of this discussion seems to be NDB replacing ESC as a method to limit sandbagging. That, in itself, is enough to admit sandbagging exists - so manipulating a score is how one does it.

But you make me wonder with "In some areas of the world". Do we have any sort of brief, "bullet point" guide of what the WHS requirements are (8 of 20, NDB, etc.) vs. those things that are up to the various associations (most likely score, acceptable formats, etc) ?

 

[HitEmTrue]

Or maybe the player’s objective is to go to the next tee box, because he has lost the hole. If he loses 5 holes during the match, it could add 5-10 strokes to his posted score.

Folks who play match play have come on here and said that those of us who don’t are too obsessed with our scores.

Maybe someone can answer the question: In an association where “most likely score” is not used, are match rounds posted for handicap purposes?

 

[Tocgolfer]

I play match play in four ball better ball and single match play and handicap using either the international match play format or stroke index and have never had any games posted for handicap purposes. Match play for me is not about building a score but trying to win the most holes.