Calculating Net Double Bogey????

[Halebopp]

A very small percentage but you only need one to ruin the fun for everyone else. In the case I mentioned, the players played in net best ball and other bigger net competitions in which the main prizes could be a week-long golf vacation in Spain or Thailand or something similar, easily worth 1500-2000€ a pop. Tax free nonetheless as those vacations are masqueraded as "tour finals" for the net competition tours.

It wasn't sheer coincidence certain people won maybe even five vacations a year from those events.

[OldFrog75]

And in what might be the only sport in the world where players can (and are expected to) call penalties on themselves. A shame really. When I was growing up golf might have been elitist but it was also perceived as a noble game played by gentlemen.

[dpb5031]

It is still a noble game, and if you think sandbagging and other forms of cheating didnt exist in the past, you're mistaken. There will always be players looking for "the edge."

Some sandbag to gain the edge in money matches, some do it to win "net" titles at their club, and some to win larger group competitions like Calcuttas and member-guests where wagering is part of it. All it takes is one devious cheat to spoil the competition for the rest. And gaining "the edge" often only requires an extra stroke or two on ones handicap.

Peer review sounds nice, but is not always practical. Truth be told, since most here in the US enter their own scores now through a phone app, it's nearly impossible to stop someone from padding if he's so inclined.

Still, I don't think we should have a system that enables those types and makes it easier for them to justify by claiming they posted according to the rules.

[rogolf]

When I was growing up golf might have been elitist but it was also perceived as a noble game played by gentlemen.

When I was growing up and learning the game (early sixties) and where I was growing up (prairies), it was certainly not "elitist" and was a great game played by gentlemen. I still consider it a great game being played by gentlemen, even though there are a few deviants.

[davep043]

@dpb5031 says:
"Peer review sounds nice, but is not always practical. Truth be told, since most here in the US enter their own scores now through a phone app, it's nearly impossible to stop someone from padding if he's so inclined.
Still, I don't think we should have a system that enables those types and makes it easier for them to justify by claiming they posted according to the rules."
Its difficult, but not impossible, to police this, it requires players to check up on the scores their "friends" post. To do any less is to enable the cheaters, but too many people are willing to do just that. But I agree with the last bit, I would prefer that our system in the US had more safeguards. We're stuck between two opposing viewpoints. One one hand, some of us would prefer tighter controls, mandatory attestation, pre-registration, etc. The other side of the coin is the group who suggest that such restrictions would drive the masses away from having a formal handicap. In my opinion, significantly improving the "security" of the handicap system would be worth a significant loss of involvement among more casual players. My hope is that the next step towards true unification of handicap systems would have the US moving towards the more restrictive posting systems used by many of our friends around the world.

[Augster]

In my club, because all team events are net, and all skins are gross and net, a player with a marginally inflated handicap potentially makes an extra $1000 over the year compared to players with real caps. Not to mention side games that he makes money on every round.

Whenever there are net skins, the bagger has a real good chance at a consistent payday. Firstly because they are getting shots they shouldn’t, and secondly because those extra shots fall on easier holes. If a 2 handicap claims he’s a 3, big deal. Almost everyone else is getting a shot on the 3 cap hole.

But if a 12 claims he’s a 14, he’s getting shots on the 13 and 14 cap holes and only playing against 13 and worse caps and he’s better than all of them.

Our 14 cap hole is a 300 yard straight hole. No trouble at all. A cake walk. Players just don’t make enough gross eagles on the hole to compete with a “14” making an easy birdie, net eagle. Same when the baggers pump up their cap to the 15-18 zone where they get a shot on a par 3 where they don’t deserve it. 2 net 1 is nearly always good. Occasionally another high cap will tie with their own 2 net 1, but the bagger likes his odds over time.

If your club plays a lot of ABCD events and has a lot of net skins, handicaps require constant vigilance to make sure it’s fair for everyone.

Lastly, percentages. It is true there aren’t many baggers. In a club with about 100 guys, I’d say we have, for sure, at least 3 baggers. There are a couple more that may be baggers, but not enough that it completely stands out. So like 3-6% of the club. Not a large percentage. And they don’t play ALL the events. It would be too obvious.

I’ll be interested to see how they manage their caps with daily updates when the season gets here. It’ll make it a LOT tougher to get a score expunged when they no longer have 2 weeks to do it.

[rogolf]

If you have 3-6% that you consider "baggers", surely there are another 3-6% who could serve as "bagger watchers" who keep score for the group and could look up what scores the "baggers" posted to their handicap record and report to the other 90%? "Baggers" need to be outed. As someone said above, if the group doesn't say anything about it, they are enablers.

[antip]

"Baggers" itself is too friendly a term, IMO. The correct title is cheat, nothing less. Stealing a couple or a lot is the same, it is screwing over everyone else in the field. If you only steal $50 from your neighbour are you a better person than the one that steals $75 or $100? So I'm emphatically with RO that baggers/cheats need to be outed.

We have just had a remarkable story unfold here in Australia. Senior amateur player with scratch handicap has been winning major senior events and getting included in representative teams and has just been caught routinely changing his completed and marker certified card before it was handed in, reducing his score by 3 and 4 strokes. This was while playing in events where people come from far and wide and then disperse equally quickly after the event so he'd been getting away with it for no-one knows how long. This is possibly a bit more dramatic than someone doing the same thing through the handicap system, but the net (sorry!) effect is the same.

PS The 'tidy the language' software is a giggle, I included a word that rhymes with crewing and it was replaced with ****, which looks far worse in my mind.

PPS Now it has reverted to the original, perhaps a person is system warned to review something posted? None of this is an issue for me, just find it interesting to be reminded of some of the challenges of running this kind of site.

[dpb5031]

You're assuming that every round the "bagger" plays is with members of the group that he'll ultimately be taking advantage of with his inflated cap. That's just not reality.

Guys play with clueless buddies, their wives, co-workers, etc., who couldnt care less what his handicap is or what he's posting. The bottom line is that if you want to cheat, it's pretty darn easy.

I just dont think it should be made easier by giving them the opportunity to legitimately take a score of NDB on a hole when in all likelihood they would have scored significantly better

[rogolf]

I just dont think it should be made easier by giving them the opportunity to legitimately take a score of NDB on a hole when in all likelihood they would have scored significantly better

Isn't that why "most likely score" (up to NDB) exists in your jurisdiction for a hole started but not finished?

[Tocgolfer]

Antip, I wonder if that scratch player will no longer be seen playing in events due to some mysterious illness and can I ask what state?

[antip]

Home state NSW but he got banned by his own club for a period. He also won a significant 54 hole senior event that I was tournament referee for in 2018, but I suspect those scores were kosher due to the nature of that event.

[dpb5031]

Yes, my comments speak to the merits of using MLS for incomplete holes as well as net pars for unplayed holes in incomplete rounds. Some here have indicated that certain associations do not intend to implement these safeguards, using NDB only.

[Shilgy]

I could be wrong, my wife says I usually am, but it seems those that use NDB instead of MLS are in formats that do not allow posting for handicap said score.

[dpb5031]

I think you're right. My points are more hypothetical and directed toward those who may not understand the need to protect against the cheats

[Deceptively Short]

It is my understanding, as per what Colin L and Newby have mentioned, that Ireland, when they adopt WHS, will be allowing matchplay scores but will not use MLS just NDB for incomplete holes - this is what I was referring to when I said it was a licence to sandbag.

[Sawgrass]

I absolutely hate cheats. But let’s not forget that old ESC/new NDB (as well as old T scores/new hard and soft caps) can be seen as ways in which the handicap system can be made “more perfect” in determining the next round’s true potential. It’s not all about cheating, and in fact nothing can Completely prevent that.

[davep043]

Amen! The handicap rules are intended to provide fair completion, when the rules are followed. The responsibility to try to eliminate sandbaggers and other handicap cheats falls on the humans involved, the handicap committee and the other players.

This isn't any different from the playing rules. The rules can't stop cheaters, that has always relied on the integrity of the individual player, and on the other players in a group. Take Christina Kim and the "advice" controversy of late. If a player doesn't stand up for rules enforcement, the "cheaters" move on with no penalty. The Rules themselves can't stop it, it took a human being to do what's right.

[Tocgolfer]

I did hear rumours of a player ( who was an ex AFL player) that had moved around a couple of clubs due to his questionable habits on the golf course and these were on the Vic/Nsw border area.

[Roadking2003]

"It is still a noble game, and if you think sandbagging and other forms of cheating didnt exist in the past, you're mistaken."

 

James Bond in Goldfinger. That was a long time ago.

[nsxguy]

[deleted]

[Augster]

Today was my first round using NDB. My CH was 8. I played awful. I shot 97 gross. Under ESC I would have posted 91. With NDB, I got to post 94.

I doubt either score would be a keeper, but I’m going to like NDB way more than ESC. I got to post a score 3 shots higher than I “deserved” if we were still using ESC.

Long live the WHS and NDB!

[HatsForBats]

Any time you are consistently seeing net eagles on par 4's and 3's it a pretty good sign, to me at least, that the game is setup incorrectly. Net Skins works much better IMO when you play off the lowest handicap in the group. Unless of course you have at least 1 player near scratch. For near scratch I think it would be better for everyone to play off say a 3 handicap (or maybe even a little more depending on the course) where the scratch player would give back (add) a stroke on the 3 toughest holes.

[rogolf]

Sounds like you are trying to get your handicap up? What's that all about? If you're trying your best, wouldn't the goal be to get it lower?

[dpb5031]

Been through this a million times. The absolute best/fairest format in a large group is half shot skins. Each player gets 100% handicap on the card at half shots.

E.g. A scratch player birdies the #6 HC hole (par 4), but loses to a player getting a half shot (3 for 2 1/2)

[dpb5031]

The handicap system was not created for a pot/skins game.

[nsxguy]

He's being "tongue in cheek"/ironic.

[HatsForBats]

I would need to see some data on that before I would believe that was the best approach. Not saying it is not but I wouldn't be convinced until I saw enough data in direct comparison with playing off the low ball.

[Roadking2003]

"Any time you are consistently seeing net eagles on par 4's and 3's it a pretty good sign, to me at least, that the game is setup incorrectly"

 

Please explain.

[dpb5031]

First you have to understand that a skins-pot game has a pretty high random luck variable. In other words, you cannot control what the rest of the field does. Some days you'll get lucky and your birdie (whether net or gross) will hold up, other days you'll get halved. The number of players in the group and the range & distribution of handicaps also have an influence, so there's no absolute perfect science to this.

I no longer have access to the data, but at my previous club our commissioner kept detailed stats for more than 15 years, so we had a large data set. Over the years we tried different skins formats. We did gross, full net, 50% handicap, 70% handicap, and ultimately half shot skins. By far and away the fairest distribution of winners across a full HC range of players from 0-19 was with the half-shot format.

In this instance, a good birdie doesnt get knocked off by cheap pars, it requires another birdie to be halved, and can only be beaten by birdie w/half-shot. Since you get your full (100%) allotment of strokes on the card, higher caps have many opportunities to win with par/net.

I'm at a club now that plays half-shot skins and it works really well