Calculating Net Double Bogey????

[Halebopp]

Of course we have them on our scorecards and yes it's useful to know where the strokes fall in net match play, like it is in net Stableford, But those things haven't changed one bit even in the U.S. due to the WHS.

 

Anyhoo, my post was a response to the claims and fears of NDB being nearly impossible to handle for the average golfer, when it really isn't. All one needs to do is post their gross scores and people can pick up at any point they want to but are also allowed to finish holes even if they go over the NDB.

[Shilgy]

True, but...they need to post hole by hole to accomplish what you suggest. At the moment hbh is not available at many courses in the US, including mine. They are still having an issue with daily revision updates as well. Hopefully for those in different parts of the world that will be adopting WHS at a later date the issues will be ironed out before you go live.

[Sawgrass]

Even players who only play Stroke figure out their course handicaps before competing with each other. I don't accept that it's thereafter too challenging to match that number of strokes up with the handicap hole allocation on the scorecard in order to determine what net double bogey for a particular hole is -- on the presumably rare occasions when it's even necessary to do so.

What may be challenging is making sure that the player uses his/her course handicap instead of their playing handicap to allocate NDB strokes -- but I'll skip over that bit as it defeats my overriding argument. ;-)

[Shilgy]

You would be surprised how many avid(once a week or more) players are clueless when it comes to stroke allocation. They may know they are gettin a dozen shots but often don’t really know which holes they fall on.

[Sawgrass]

They can look forward to a season of personal growth!

 

 

[Shilgy]

 

They might. But then they never really learned the previous version of ESC so is that a head start? I recall playing with a member of our Saturday group last year...on the second hole he hits his tee shot left into the trees, hit his provisional right into trees, finds neither one and says “just give me a double”. I said to him that he lay 4 on the tee and as an 18 handicap he could take a 7 so unless he expected to hole his second shot with the third ball I would write down a 7 for him.

Many players are just not responsible for their own score and expect someone to track that for them.

[Sawgrass]

Oh, boy. That particular guy can look forward to another season of personal irresponsibility.

[Shilgy]

Under the old system can you imagine the confusion with daily updating? The guy hovering between a 9 or 10 course handicap would have a max ESC score of 7 one day and 5 on a par 3 the next. NDB is easier- or should be.

[klebs01]

I think many saying ESC was easier are way overestimating how many people properly complied with the ESC rules. The current method with HBH posting is by far the easiest solution to limit blowup holes and have general compliance. I just wish the HBH was mandatory and not optional. Would make things a lot easier.

[nsxguy]

Well, I didn't say it was a "requirement", but in SE Asia, most guys will usually pick up once they know they'll get 0 points. And most, even quite casual players, seem to know when that is.

"Useful" for match play ? Now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. LOL

Of course it's not impossible to learn NDB but here in the States you have a large number of players who never bothered to learn about ESC so they're certainly not going to be bothered to learn a more difficult NDB. As Shilgy(?) mentioned they don't even keep score. It'll be up to the more experienced (& better ?) players in the group to guide them along so they post properly OR, as has been mentioned more than once, post HBH IF available. .

But that raises a couple of other issues. Most of 'em have NEVER posted HBH, only a gross score - and I count myself among them as I didn't even know GHIN offered HBH scoring until about 3 weeks ago. LOL

And how about the 4-somes where 1 guy typically handles the scoring ? What a nightmare for him trying to keep track of 4 different Chs so he can properly adjust a score higher than DB. Yikes Fortunately NDB doesn't come into play all that often.

What you guys on the right side of the pond should keep in mind is that while you apparently play Stableford quite a bit, here in the States it's MUCH less common. I never even heard about Stableford until around 2013 when i made my first trip to SE Asia.

[deadsolid...shank]

I bet I’ve said that a 100 times here. That I’ve NEVER played stableford (or even matchplay) format in casual play (and probably only a handful of times in a competition setting). So when people talk about “picking up” it’s a completely foreign concept to me. I’ve always felt that a round isn’t complete unless you’ve holed out 18 times.

But there seem to be quite a few even on this side of the pond who do play those formats. Just not in our areas.

[Shilgy]

NSX, as regards the foursome question with one scorekeeper, what I have always done is write the gross score on the scorecard and write, for instance, -1 esc next to the total score box so I can tell the player what adjusted score to post.

But then I freely admit to being quite anal about the scoring and posting.

[nsxguy]

 

I always keep score. Previously I used the "dot" system. If a player "loses" a shot or more on a hole I put a dot in the box for each stroke to be taken off his final score. At the end of the round I count the dots and subtract them from his gross score giving a score for posting purposes.

So I suppose I'll do the same now but it's the calculation of where each guy "gets" shots for the NDB calc that's the issue. With the old ESC the max number for each hole was easy - even for single digits. Now we have to pay attention where each player's strokes fall.

First world problems. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[deadsolid...shank]

I’ve always done our scorekeeping too. But I’ve always been lucky in that most of the guys were usually aware if they had to make an adjustment.

[dpb5031]

IDK, I've been playing for nearly 30 years and practically every place I've played (in the US) plays match play (typically some form of a Nassaua bet) as the standard game. Group comps commonly use some form of points/ Stableford, otherwise better ball of team

[dpb5031]

Can end up being a huge difference in the score that gets posted. Most likely score makes the most sense.

In my view, these protocols should always tend toward protecting the field from sandbaggiers

[deadsolid...shank]

Yep, that’s why I referenced my area. The Great Plains and Rocky Mountain area. Admittedly not a lot of clubs, played as a member or pass holder at four or five over the years where there were regular games. Always stroke play. And over the five years in Phoenix and the last year in Colorado where I don’t have a regular game and normally just pair up, not once in that time has anyone played anything but strokeplay. Our group comps were a simple comparison of team score to par, and our Nassua bets were front, back, and total strokeplay score.

A lot of people seem to share your experience though, so it’s quite possibly that mine is the outlier

I wonder on those type of meetup rounds what the typical breakdown of format. is for people.

[dpb5031]

If you're playing a "meet up" round does it even matter? I mean, are you agreeing with the other person (or people) to play for something or are you just quietly competing against them for total score? I dont know anyone and have never encountered anyone who plays for total score (stroke play) gross, or net (minus handicap). Not being a wise guy, but I've played in over a dozen states and haven't seen much difference with the exception of inexperienced players who generally dont play for anything

 

[rogolf]

In Canada, we've had daily updating for several years. Players just learn how to deal with it - they check their their handicap before they play the next day. It's not a big deal.

[deadsolid...shank]

I guess it doesn’t matter if it’s a meet up round since you likely aren’t playing for anything.

Never would have even thought of you being a “wise guy”, you never have been that I’m aware of. Just a difference in experience I guess. I have roughly the same time playing and geographic dispersion (State wise) that you do, but I’ve never played those formats (outside of a few special competitions). Again though, I haven’t played a large number of places in any sort of regular, ongoing game.

[deadsolid...shank]

I really like the daily update aspect of it. We’ve had numerous times where guys got on a streak, good or bad, early in the two week period but had to wait for the next period. Seems like it will be more reflective of how you’re playing, relatively anyway.

[rogolf]

It is the player's responsibility to post the right score for handicapping purposes; the scorekeeper just needs to record the gross score. If the player picks up, the scorekeeper just needs to ask, "What do you want on that hole?"

[deadsolid...shank]

See, that ties into my conversation with DPB above, picking up is never an option. We had two 11’s over the years. At least only one was mine.

[rogolf]

In our parts of the world, picking up is always an option - out of the hole and can't help the team, can't beat your partner's score in match play or stroke play bb, can't score any points in Stableford, or just BIPLI (ball in pocket, lost interest).

[Shilgy]

Your preaching to the choir, unfortunately there are those that don't, or won't, listen to the sermon. Some guys, even regular golfers, don't bother to learn the rules. Doesn't matter if they are playing rules or posting rules they just don't learn. And then whine about the changes of course. ?

[deadsolid...shank]

Our regular game always included team total as two of the seven possible points. So you had to finish.

[rogolf]

We never play a team game where all players have to finish every hole - it's punishment to that last player and slows down play too much.

[deadsolid...shank]

Guess it’s to each his own. I guess our 11’s probably slowed our rounds down to three hours from the normal 2:45 (had to love private courses), but I’m sure typically it would slow things down a bit. But that’s also two occurrences over 10+ years of rounds. I think we can live with that. As far as punishment, we still talk about those two scores, memories were made. Kind of a “Tin Cup” thing.

[dpb5031]

I'm fine if anyone wants to pick up or play it out. My only issue is with the score a player records for handicap posting. If he fails to finish a hole, I dont think NDB is always going to be a fair representation and may lead to an inappropriately inflated handicap. Most likely score or bogey on stroke holes/ par on non-stroke holes seems way more fair.

[ThinkingPlus]

I have very rarely ever played Stableford (maybe once a year in our comps). Before the last couple years I had only played match play once. Played maybe 10 or 11 matches these last couple of years. Neither format is my cup of tea.