Calculating Net Double Bogey????

[Newby]

Medal play is simply strokeplay.

It was given its name when stroke play competition was relatively rare and a medal was awarded to the winner of a club strokeplay competition. They were usually played once a month and were given the general title of 'Monthly Medal' or 'Annual Medal' for one played once a year.

Much later the term was used (in the US particularly) for a strokeplay competition that preceded a matchplay knockout where the top 16 (say) qualified. The leader of the strokeplay round was given a medal.

[Newby]

That is one of the reasons why CONGU do not accept Fourball scores at present.

 

[Colin L]

I'm being chided for not having addressed the matter of match play. My sad excuse is that I have a life outside GolfWRX and didn't have time.

Anyway, you didn't need me for the answer. If most likely score is in place and the hole is finished without your having holed out, you record your most likely score if it is less than NDB. If most likely score is not in place, you record NDB.

Uniquely amongst the CONGU countries, Ireland will be accepting match play scores and most likely score will not be in place. It will be interesting to see how that turns out and I would expect CONGU to do some number crunching on the outcomes which will be useful when, as is likely, matchplay and four ball scores are to be acceptable in the the other CONGU countries. For all I know we might change to most likely score as a result.

For our Irish friends and any others in areas where matchplay scores are accepted but there is no most likely score, it is always possible to hole out in both match play and four ball after the hole is decided in order to record a score lower than a NDB. There may be a pace of play factor in that, but it is permissible.

On the matter of a player deliberately manipulating the system, the rules do require a valid reason for not completing a hole. It's down to handicap committees and fellow players to deal with that in my view.

Walking off after 14 holes is subject to a different rule [3.2 When a Hole is not Played]. If 14 holes are acceptable in your jurisdiction for an 18-hole score [Rule 2.2a], the four holes not started are recorded as net par. Again, the player has to have a "valid reason" for not completing the round.

[dpb5031]

This discussion solidifies my opinion that "most likely score" is a prudent practice no matter the competition format, and that if a match ends prematurely, pars should be recorded on non-stroke holes, and bogeys on stroke holes. In my view we should always be erring toward protecting against sandbagging, not creating scenarios that make it easier.

Separately, the men's group at my previous club had an interesting and effective way of making the system practically impossible to sandbag. We played a Stableford quota game. Each Monday quotas were adjusted using a rolling average of your 5 best of 10 most recent Stableford scores. Only rounds played with the group were used to calculate quotas, so your handicap outside of the group was irrelevant.

Further, any player posting a point score lower than 80% of his quota for that day, was adjusted to 80% for input into the system. It was our form of ESC to prevent "tanked" or anomaly rounds from having undue influence on future quota. It worked brilliantly.

[Imp]

The league I'm in does similar in that we have our own handicapping method outside of GHIN (72 regular players every week). We play the same course, week in and week out for 30+ years and it's been very equitable. For about 1/2 to 3/4 of the league, it's the only time they play all week (and usually don't carry a GHIN). There's a lot of rust that shows up every week.

On the flip side, some consider it a drinking league with a golf problem.

[Deceptively Short]

Do we know what the advice is then in Ireland for recording a score in matchplay if they are not using ‘most likely score’ but are using matchplay scores for handicapping purposes? What should they record when a hole has been conceded and the loser has not completed the hole or for holes not played as the match has finished?

[DaveLeeNC]

I have to admit that posting match play scores with no Most Likely Score in place (or any alternative to that), seems to me to be something that is either not well thought out or there is additional info that we don't have yet.

In my matchplay experience there are always those cases (particularly with higher handicap golfers) where (as an example) player A is laying 2 about 20 yards off the green and player B is in a greenside bunker laying 5 (with a poor bunker game and wanting to not have to demonstrate that). Hole over.

You just have to deal with that somehow.

dave

[HitEmTrue]

He just answered that question...net double bogey for holes not completed. And net par for holes not played.

[nsxguy]

The history of "medal" is interesting. Thanks.

I know what medal play is though. My comment to dave was in relation to "most likely score".

His comment was "Some associations around the world will not allow posting of fourball or match play scores, they'll only accept stroke play or stableford scores. For those people, there won't be a need to use "most likely score".

My question was "Why not ?" I suppose I should have written "Why won't there be a need to use "most likely score" in stroke play ?"

But my point is, even in medal/stroke play a player may "pick up" and not complete a hole. Granted it's not nearly as likely as other forms of play since in medal play not completing a hole DQs the guy from any awards and that round is not likely to be in his 8 best anyway. But it certainly can happen.

And now that I think a bit further about it, why not in Stableford ? If a guy is playing fairly well but knows he's got no chance, likely because, by say 14 he knows he can't beat the guys in his own group, what's to prevent him from picking up 3 foot par putts on the last few holes and writing down "0" instead of "most likely score" ?

Now Colin has mentioned peer review. If the guy does this he's got to "support" why. But who's going to report it ? Is reporting this sort of thing common in CONGU ? In Europe ? Granted my experiences may not be typical but that sort of thing is seldom complained about here in the States.

[davep043]

Net Double Bogey won't eliminate sandbagging, and I don't believe that was the intention. Net Double is a more accurate way of limiting hole scores than the old ESC method, which would allow a 12-handicap to record a GROSS double bogey on a par-5 hole, and a GROSS quadruple bogey on a par-3. The old ESC also allowed as much as an 18-stroke jump between a 19-handicap and a 20-handicap. Net Double provides a smoother transition between players of differing handicaps, and evens out the discrepancy between par-3 and par-5 holes.

For a good summary of the changes, and explanations of the reasons behind them, check this out:https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/world-handicap-system/WHS%20Change%20Summaries.pdf

[nsxguy]

You didn't say it was a requirement but a fair share of posters here seem to be implying that. Also, the point they use it actively in SE Asia simply proves that it really isn't all that difficult to do if one wants to do so.

#1 issue here in the States is slow play. People try to pick up when they can to keep things moving.

I didn't say it was difficult to do, I said it was more difficult than ESC.

If you can't post gross scores HBH, that's a problem with the USGA or the software provider, not with NDB itself. We also keep a single card for casual rounds and if someone wants to know their Stableford score for some reason and can't do the math in their head, they can check the scorecard for themselves. But give it a couple of months. and you'll figure it out. The guy with the card is only responsible for gross scores. But hopefully the USGA can fix their issues with HBH posting as that's by far the easiest way to do things.

Not necessarily. I believe it's yet to be established if golf courses are required to load HBH data. The guys who bothered to figure out ESC will most likely figure out NDB as well. Just yesterday I played with a buddy from my old club and I told him about NDB replacing ESC and he said "Whaaaaat ?" He knew ESC but it took a while to explain NDB to him. LOL

 

 

[Halebopp]

@DaveLeeNC In my matchplay experience there are always those cases (particularly with higher handicap golfers) where (as an example) player A is laying 2 about 20 yards off the green and player B is in a greenside bunker laying 5 (with a poor bunker game and wanting to not have to demonstrate that). Hole over.
You just have to deal with that somehow.
I know this isn't the answer you were looking for but for starters such a situation is most likely only to arise in a country where you need to pre-register your rounds for handicapping purposes. Thus the easy way out is to not play a qualifying score in a match play round. Secondly, the player should try and finish the hole to the best of his abilities until he reaches NDB, or accept the NDB. If it was a par 5 and the player gets 2 strokes, the player could pick up after 8, mark 9 and then go practice avoiding bunkers and playing from bunkers and think about why he pre-registered the round to begin with. :)

[DaveLeeNC]

I admit that it is a different situation for cases where posting is optional (although the decision must be made in advance). And it is not a case that I considered and is certainly different that the one that I am used to (where posting would be required for a typical match play round).

Elsewhere there was a statement that NDB was the proper score for a match play hole not completed in this case. I don't know what to say about that.

dave

[Deceptively Short]

Well that is just nonsensical. If my opponent puts his ball to 2 inches on a par 3, I concede the putt and don’t make my birdie putt I am supposed to put a net double bogey on my card? (if our handicap indexes are such that we receive a stroke that is potentially 3 shots too high).

That’s just a licence to sandbag.

[Colin L]

You don't have to put NBD on your card. As I mentioned above, you can hole out and record your real score.

[HitEmTrue]

Sorry Colin, I wasn't trying to chide you...we had gone three pages with a couple of us trying to understand match play and NDB for areas that don't use most likely score.

This question isn't just for you, but for those who are in golf cultures that lean toward match play. Isn't the typical action to pick up your ball and move on, once you've lost the hole? My understanding is that it's also common to not even keep a scorecard. Using NBD rather than most likely score would cause accusations of sandbagging, when the person may just be wanting to play the match.

As you said, maybe those areas/associations will change to most-likely-score.

 

 

 

[Deceptively Short]

So if any putt is conceded and not holed out the resulting score is ndb? If I am a sandbagger this presents me with the perfect opportunity/reason to frequently record scores ‘correctly’ that are significantly higher than I would have otherwise made.

An integral part of 4BB matchplay is not allowing an opponent to hole out thereby not giving him the opportunity to show his partner the line, now if you go and pick his ball up and hand it to him you are simultaneously giving him a ndb on that hole.

If Ireland use matchplay without ‘most likely score’ it will be potential chaos. This is the exact reason why the US must have introduced ‘mls’ so as to avoid such a potential shambles.

[dpb5031]

Exactly! Always err toward preventing sandbagging rather than instituting policies that enable it. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp.

[davep043]

@nsxguy says:
"I believe it's yet to be established if golf courses are required to load HBH data. "
Based on the Handicap Seminar I attended, absolutely nobody will be REQUIRED to post scores hole by hole. Individual players may choose to do so, as a way of keeping their statistics, or to assist in understanding NDB. Golf clubs may choose to do so (my club enters all tournament rounds) in order to avoid manually scanning scorecards for NDB corrections. Golf clubs may encourage their members to use HbH in order to gather statistical scoring data. But within the USGA areas, I have been told that Hole by Hole entry will not be required by anyone.

[DaveLeeNC]

Regarding optionally posting match play scores with no MLS, I assume that what has happened here is that the relevant RB's decided to allow match play posting for those who wanted to do that and expected to be able to avoid the issues being discussed based on how they handle concessions.

Just a guess, however. This is one of those (from a US perspective) 'you gotta be kidding me things' just like I am sure that some of our handicap practices that we accept as normal generate reactions across the pond.

dave

[nsxguy]

I think you misunderstood what I said.

I was referring to the golf courses being required to UPLOAD their course HBH data into GHIN (or the association ?), NOT the individual player entering HBH scores.

Or was that already covered and I just didn't see it ?

[davep043]

My apologies. I do understand that Virginia courses were required to provide the hole par, yardage, and handicap ratings. I have assumed that other Associations will require their member courses to do the same, but that really is just an assumption. Since the new Rules strongly encourage Hole by Hole posting, requiring the courses to provide the necessary data seems logical.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

What do you think the penalty would be for non-compliance?

[davep043]

I don't know, that's way above my pay grade. I suppose a state association could de-activate all handicaps for that club, that would get their attention.

[ThinkingPlus]

Well I know it would pi$$ me off.

[rogolf]

nsx - what do you mean that "golf courses are required to load HBH data"? They would be required to load what specific data?

[Newby]

Now Colin has mentioned peer review. If the guy does this he's got to "support" why. But who's going to report it ? Is reporting this sort of thing common in CONGU ? In Europe ? Granted my experiences may not be typical but that sort of thing is seldom complained about here in the States.

From the WHS

The main areas of responsibility for each key stakeholder are:

(i) Player A player is expected to:

l Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,

l Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,

l Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,

l Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,

l Play by the Rules of Golf, and

l Certify the scores of fellow players.

The last is always done over here.

[Halebopp]

@Deceptively Short If Ireland use matchplay without ‘most likely score’ it will be potential chaos. This is the exact reason why the US must have introduced ‘mls’ so as to avoid such a potential shambles.And a reason why match play and team formats shouldn't be counted towards handicap in the first place. :)
@nsxguy One of our senior members picked up on the last hole of a stroke-play competition because he was "shooting too good a score". don't ask me what was going through his mind. The captain of the organizing club called our captain, we discussed the issue within our Rules & Handicapping Committee and the player, posted the appropriate score for the round. with a net par (if I remember the EGA rules correctly) for the last hole. There were also other sanctions for the player, including suspension from competitions for a while and financial losses as the club would have covered some of the costs of participating in the event. That player was a Category 1 player, so he could only return scores from competitions. I also get requests to take a look at some players' handicap histories for suspected sandbagging once or twice a year. I don't know how many such cases are brought forward to other members of the committee.

Probably the worst couple of sandbaggers in the country and their home club ended up being called out in our equivalent of the Golf Digest for sandbagging and the HCP committee for not doing anything about it. Also another golf magazine simply refused to hand a prize to the winner of one of their net "tour" events, I can't recall if they published that player's name anywhere though but the results for the tournament were public information and it was easy to see who were disqualified.

Oh, also, if the USGA doesn't require HBH scoring to be available for all the courses and don't follow through with the requirement, I would view it as a failure on their part. Again, not an issue with the WHS or HBH in themselves.

[OldFrog75]

All this talk about sandbagging. What percentage of players are sandbaggers and what is the actual benefit in Amateur golf? Is there really that much in it to make it worthwhile?

[Newby]

The benefit in this country is big value prizes in open BB or am/am competition. Within 50 miles of me there is at least one a week during the prime season. Increasingly prizes are retail vouchers for non golf shops and can vary upto £500.