USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[Mudguard]

The difficulty of trying to "prove" that distance is a problem based upon mostly equipment is not so simple. There are too many factors to attribute to longer distances some of which are not even quantifiable from a direct cause relationship. So, it's not really simple.

 

I don't anyone is saying that it is solely down to equipment. But every single person who played golf through the introduction of the Pro V knew what a game changer it was. And it is easy to measure. Work out the CT of a persimmon driver, the first metal drivers, then anything from 2006 when they set the limit to 460cc (or whichever year it is).

What is simple if distance is a problem at professional level, is slowing the ball down. Not the clubs, they already have pretty hard limits. Imagine Koepka using a 50 compression ball, he will still hit it further than me, but not as far as a ball with 110 compression.

Now that's an extreme example. But it would be pretty easy for the R&A/USGA to roll out a max compression for professional golf only.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The issue I have here is that assumption that it's mainly or only poor contact and not just a limited swing speed.

There are plenty of those who make great contact but can't swing that fast.

The issue with this is that most players will want to follow the same rules as the pros.

[Mudguard]

 

The issue with this is that most players will want to follow the same rules as the pros.

 

Do you genuinely believe that? I would say 90% of golfers could care less about professional golf (other than watching it). I live between a couple of golf courses. I just watched an old digger fishing around for his tee for five minutes. Do you think he cares if there's a ball for professionals (ironically, he may be suited to a 50 compression ball). The bulk of members at my golf club aren't using x flex exotic shafts, or latest model equipment.

Sure my group and some other low handicap players lust after the new stuff and generally play a medal round in addition to the Saturday haggle. As I've said, I've had my new irons for maybe six months and I had no idea that the 9 iron had a different flex to the rest! And I'm a Golfwrxer!! (maybe I'll be banned).

[PedronNiall]

The funny thing is that a certain well-known publication used to do their "high temperature" list featuring both driver distance & spin and wedge distance & spin but stop publishing the driver distance because all of the balls were within 5 yards or so of each other. They've even removed the last year they did the real chart from their site and from anywhere else it was featured online from what I could see. If you search you might be able to find it here on our site if someone attached the pic instead of a link.

[Roadking2003]

Just an interesting observation;

 

[Mudguard]

Looks pretty stable to me.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Interesting stuff. I've looked at the averages, too. While they increased in the early 2000s, they seem to have plateaued in the last 10+ years. I think the RBs need to emphasize their successes in flattening the increase rather than potential measures to roll back equipment. Why not flex your accomplishments? It might just ingratiate them to the masses a bit more than at present. Maybe it's time to let go of the idea that the few classic, precious, delicate, historic, dainty, darling layouts, that have not stood the test of time, are still be entitled to host championships (even though they still can if they have room for infrastructure).
I 1000% agree with dudes like @Jack_H who correctly say the equipment nowadays makes certain people more capable than they would be without it. In my (now) limited competitive rounds, I don't care that much. If I can't beat them with the new stuff, that's on me. I do get the point, but it's never a reality.

[bladehunter]

Yep. And I. Appreciate you saying that. It’s not a perspective most get. Or even admit is possible .

 

and I’ll add. This past weekend I played in our opening club event. Which was flighted by handicap , with the low flight playing gross and rest net. Something for everyone so to speak. well, they paired us up in the pro shop , the idea being a “ mixer “ of sorts to start off. So I got paired with a 8 and 13 handicap . Both over 60 guys. Which was fine. Both guys were great to play with.

now my point . I did have an epiphany of sorts. Neither guy was a bad Player at all. As in we didn’t have a single ball in our group out of play all day. Few duds no doubt. But not wild players. Neither guy could really stand to hit it shorter. One guy hit 3 wood from anything longer than 175 yards. And he could hit it. But that’s as far as it went. And he was playing p790 irons. So that puts his distances into perspective , with a spring faced iron.

Those facts I saw myself , are as foreign to me as some of the reactions on my play , that I got from them . Suggesting that my play was foreign to them. And I’m not at all trying to brag. Just show a point. And the point is that I see what some are saying now. These two certainly enjoyed their day. And would have enjoyed it less if they hit it shorter. Or more crooked.

so like you I know that there are some guys who actually compete who would struggle if they lost their hybrids and big driver, but I’m not really willing to be the guy who ruins it for the seniors and ladies who need things to remain as is to have fun just to squash those few who I see as taking advantage of the tech to further their competition playing years

im not sure what pushed this idea into my head. If It’s me paying more attention because of this thread , or if I’m just mellowing ( growing mature ) in this game , or maybe some of both. I was reminded that I’ve not played this long enough to have seen it all for sure. And to that point I have no problem reversing course when I see an actual reason to. It’s not that I don’t still see an issue with Distance. I do. But what I can’t see is a solution that doesnt poop on the “little guy “ so to speak. And no matter how annoying some of them are , they shouldnt be pooped on. ? . And let’s be honest. The ruling bodies have no idea how to do it without pooping on someone’s head. So there. I hope they cap it where it is and leave it alone.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Observation, not belief. Lol

[Roadking2003]

Another interesting observation;

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Age tends to do that to people.

[mokedaddy]

This is an important post. There really are multiple angles even trying to limit it to elite golf. As someone who is fortunate enough to play most of my golf early during the week I play with players from all walks of life. Just in the last couple of months I’ve played with d1 college players, teaching pros and guys over 70 that couldn’t even hit the ball out of there shadow. All broke 80 from their respective tees. Yes the courses are a little short for those of us blessed with distance but I choose to only hit driver on par 5s and I have plenty of fun. It also reminds me of my dad who has spent many years playing with touring pros and playing the tips because that’s the rules and hitting it about 220 on a good day. He admits those rounds aren’t any fun.

[Sean2]

Yes, and at my age I wish they would consider rolling the ball forward. :-)

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I wonder if USGA attempts bifurcation of rules for pros versus us, that this is what that means?

Equipment that is currently against the rules could suddenly become okay for us to use?

Maximum COR equipment and smaller and heavier balls?

If so, I’m definitely for that! Changed my mind if this will allow currently non-conformant equipment to the common golfer.

[Roadking2003]

Interesting that Watson is trending down while Johnson is trending up.

[storm319]

More likely outcome is new regulation added with everything else staying the same. The USGA has never relaxed an equipment regulation to my knowledge so I doubt that they would start now.

[klebs01]

Using a Volvik can ruin your game.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Johnson is still mid 30s while Bubba hit 41 last year. The data shows increase during their prime years.

Unfortunate.

[smashdn]

With all due respect, you are bringing up things that were never apart of my original post. You can measure the level of correlation between two data sets. And you can determine the impact of each discrete data set relative to one another. That is all I said.

 

I can measure temperature, visible daylight and wind direction. I can measure the correlation of both visible daylight and wind direction on temperature. I can then determine between wind direction and visible daylight which one has a larger impact on temperature and what percentage is each.

 

I am not trying to prove distance is a problem. I don't need to. In 2002 the USGA said any increase was undesirable. They now need to determine which of the variables that they can impact are easiest to control to get the desired effect, IF they decide to do something, and weigh the issues associated with enacting that change to determine if the outcome is worth the trouble.

 

The only thing analysing the data is going to tell you is which variables have how much impact. Player fitness may account for 95% of the distance gains. USGA can't do much about that if it turns out to be the case.

[bscinstnct]

But look at the quick drop in distance as soon as they got on the PGA Tour that continues, overall, for both of them, for about 6 years.

 

Same with JB Holmes.

 

These guts realized that there far more to scoring than hitting it far. And they reduced their distance so they could score.

 

JB said he came on tour and hand no problem *carrying 330 yards with a draw. But he changed to a cut and reduced his distance so he could score.

[farmer]

I played with a Pinnacle the last time I played, really did not see any big distance gains, and around the greens I was just lost. As an old guy, I'm quite often hitting 4-6 irons into greens, which means I miss more greens than I did when it was more 7-wedge approaches. So, I need that premium ball around the green, and if it goes as far as a distance ball, that's a win-win for me. There is no more space for me to move yp, our little struggling club cannot afford to build new tees, and the topography wouldn't allow that approach. I sympathize with 15 and those who want the Golden Age courses to remain relevant for elite players, but if it come to the point where I'm hitting three woods into greens, then I'm done.

 

[farmer]

[disco111]

Not sure if any body posted the following, but David Feherty made an interesting comment during an interview. If distance is a/the problem, then making the ball bigger (1.68 to 1.70) would increase spin and thus reduce the distance factor. It was already done when we changed from the smaller British ball to the now 1.68 ball back in the 60's. This could be the answer for the USGA.

[storm319]

The USGA actually did this in the early 1930's along with reducing the maximum ball weight. They ended up rolling back the weight change a few years later due to a massive volume of public complaints. The R&A adopted decided not to adopt the rule until sometime in the mid 1970's for The Open Championship and then globally effective 1990.

The problem with increasing size is that it also has the side effect of making contact easier. Decreasing weight would be less noticeable from that perspective while still being effective at reducing initial ball velocity, however either of these would have a dramatically more impacted by wind which may not be intended. The USGA is likely to leave the physical limitations to the ball as is and approach a rollback via changes to the initial velocity and ODS regulations.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The tour seems to peak out at 300 with more and more players reaching that number, but not really exceeding that number by too much?

Perhaps there is a maximum distance a player needs/wants to hit?

Self healing problems are always the best.

[Mudguard]

Self healing problems are always the best.

 

I don't know about that. Why set a 460cc limit, a shaft length limit, a ball velocity limit, a CT limit? I still remember the ERC being banned. Now that was a strange driver, middle one, went miles, thin ever so slightly and it just went nowhere.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There were many fads, and plenty of folks ready to spend money on them.

I found the 460cc limit to be strange. Seems like only a few people could swing a 1000cc club, and at one point air friction would have played a bigger role. Humorous to watch.

[oikos1]

Not sure if we just wanted this to go 100+ pages or it had to go 100+ pages, but well said to both Ashley and Jack.

I think by now we should all understand that newer equipment and balls make the game more enjoyable, and easier, for many golfers, that the evidence doesn't suggest there is an immediate distance problem to be addressed, and that we all wish the USGA would take a stronger leadership role in regulating distance for the future.

Time to go and play!

 

[Mudguard]

Well it's not rocket science, my retired father hits his tee shot almost as far as he did with persimmon at about 200m. I agree, I don't think there is a distance problem for amateurs, however if courses like the Old Course or Carnoustie drop out of the Open rota then I'll be sad, and I'd like to see the governing bodies do something about it for professionals.

[smashdn]

"JB said he came on tour and hand no problem *carrying 330 yards with a draw. But he changed to a cut and reduced his distance so he could score."

 

Sounds like the Jack Nicklaus playbook. Jack just might have ran that play better though.