USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[QuigleyDU]

I would love to raise my hand here. Sadly no. No tee times.
The issues is here, just to point it out. The argument has been states as not a reaction to tour pros. So is it now? I am not putting words in your mouth. Or playing gotcha, this is a discussion with a constantly moving target.
Here has been my biggest hold up. We cannot, and should not react to anything based on what the top 100 golfers of the world do. They do not pay to play. This decision needs to be made in exclusion of them. @davep043 I think mentioned. If it is because your 15 handicap is hitting the ball 300 yards all over the place and reeking havoc on property and pace of play. Ok make a decision.
Nothing should be done based on what any tour pro. Be it, PGA, LPGA, Korn Ferry, or Euro does.

[bladehunter]

Come on. Now I’ve really not shouted distances here loudly. Others here have threads with lots of launch monitor pics showing more power than what I produce. I’ll try to ignore this thread , but we have to be fair. I’m just trying to voice things that I don’t see others mentioning.

like the pace of play from 6k yards etc. am I a bad guy for pointing that out ? If so I truly do not get it.

[Dpavs]

I guess we just disagree on this point. As for the scratch golfer not wanting to shoot 8-10, to me that is a matter of proper expectation setting. Perhaps to think that the average scratch capper can shoot consistently near par on a championship course from the tips is simply not (or should not be) a realistic expectation. Again just my honest opinion.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Buddy, I’m just ribbing you because I know you can take it. Strangely, I do it to 15th because I know he can’t take it, haha. I don’t think you actually think that way, man. If I did, I’d just say nothing.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Thanks. Was getting a complex. #longhittershavefeelingstoo ?

For what its worth. I got the memo. I realize I’m overbearing. And I’ll try to stifle it. And just be thankful for what I have , and Try not to get into the whole “ club golfer scene “ arguments.

[smashdn]

All else being equal you are correct. That is where @QuigleyDU's premise of the architects needing to do a better job comes in to an extent. You need to design some compelling reason why the longer player may pause and say to themselves,"Yeah, I can hit it 40 yards further but that brings X into play," or "I hit it there I may have a wedge but then I'm hitting it to the shallow part of the green." Or something to that effect.
The rub is, there is no "bringing X into play" that scares off a tour player with anything less than about a 7iron in his hands. To make angles matter you got to have them hitting from 170+ yards. To get them hitting from 170+ yards you got to have 470 yard par fours. Or you can put some kind of penalty that forces them to lay up. A chasm or water hazard. That just makes a hole unplayable for others. There is no telling where a 15 capper may be hitting his second or third from.
You missed my point about the 260 yard par fours. On the PGA Tour who has the advantage if there was never a hole longer than 260 yards? The guy that can drive it 340 or that drives it 280?

[golfer07840]

I think Pebble has tinkered with yardages, but only for the U.S. Open. Obviously the yardage changed when they re-did the par 3 5th.

Also, 17 plays longer because they use a tee box on the 4th hole for the 17th, however, they were doing that back when Jack hit the flag stick with a 1 iron. So this isn't anything new.

Didn't they also use an original Tee box for the 8th that was further back and then use part of the original fairway? Again, this was all land that was already there anyway.

[golfer07840]

The 15 capper has no business playing from the same tees as the PGA Tour though. So if that's their choice, than that is their problem.

[smashdn]

"Nothing should be done based on what any tour pro. Be it, PGA, LPGA, Korn Ferry, or Euro does."

 

That is fine. But I could foresee people stopping watching it if it continues down the path it is going. I think it may mirror MLB. The product gets so bad that you alienate the long-term core fan and it may become like a minor league game, folks showing up because it is dollar beer night and bring your dog to the park and less because of the product on the field. Maybe the PGA is okay with that. I personally think it would be a shame.

 

I really do think there is a bit of pride, even if it is misplaced, of hosting the "Pros" at your course and seeing them face the same challenges and struggles you (collective) do.

 

I think there is a funny dichotomy that everybody wants to play the game the pros do but really no one plays the game the way the pros do, not even a scratch player at your club. The size of the disparity in ability has surpassed a course's ability to manipulate it back to a point where it provides a similar challenge. In the old days you sped up the greens, grew the rough a touch and put the markers towards the back of the boxes. That doesn't work now.

[smashdn]

So why would you build it? Who are you building it for? Got to be Pro golfers correct? We are back around to building a course that is useless except when the Pro's show up once a year. That is what is unsustainable, not "green," a besmirch on the game itself from outsiders.

 

I have some posters saying we shouldn't worry with how courses fair against pros others saying it is acceptable to design a course where a scratch player is 8-10 over par on the regular to test the pros. Why not just have them play some equipment that makes the course as it sits more challenging?

[storm319]

I wonder if the demand for long courses would also drop if the USGA and PGA of America would institute a reoccurring rota like the R&A? Then some developers would cross that goal off of the list when engaging a designer and be more open to focusing on a design that would make the course a true amenity or profit center.

[smashdn]

I don't think distance is what is going to hold back a 15 capper at PGA National.

 

That being said, if the 15 capper was playing appropriate tees would his tee balls not be ending up in approximately the same spots as the pros? On the par fours would the difference between the farthest back tees and the middle tees approach 50 yards? Assume the 15 capper drives it 250 and a pro 300 or so.

[golfer07840]

The 15 capper, on avg, only drives the ball about 210.

If you can drive it 250 and have any clue what you're doing around the greens, you should not be anywhere near a 15 'cap.

[DFS PFD]

Where is the point of diminishing returns on distance? I know there's a correlation between distance and handicap but there's always outliers and I'm curious where we think the distance stops being as beneficial? Purely anecdotal but I know a few 15 handicaps who hit the ball 250+ but after that little (not so little) caveat you through in there, they are horrible around the green and their handicaps never seem to trend down.

[Dpavs]

The various marker sets are what should level the playing ability, not the equipment and course itself. If you are not at a pro level, why would you try to play from the tips on a championship course and expect to shoot near par?

[bladehunter]

That’s exactly what I fear. And I used baseball on purpose before. I saw it happen. No bigger baseball fan than I as a kid. Now. Lots of kids can’t be made to play baseball. Much less watch it on TV. My kid hates it. And yet is very athletic and plays as much basketball as he can get. So it’s not just a video game issue. Lol.

and to your point. I Haven’t spent a dime on mlb baseball in 20 years. But I do love going to a minor league and even better. An american legion game. That’s real baseball.

golf is repeating baseballs mistakes with the juiced players and juiced ball. My opinion as seems to make any statement ok here. ?‍♂️

[Roadking2003]

"The issue is you can't really design a course that challenges the Pro and is playable for even better than average golfers (sub15)"

 

And yet hundreds of them exist today.

[storm319]

Agreed on any club rollback being far more costly than balls:

1) Golf balls are relatively disposable (although less now than in the past) and have a better chance to be recycled, discarded clubs end up in landfills (think about the hundreds of thousands of drivers produced over the past 20-25 years that would be deemed non-conforming based on this suggestion).

2) Rollback in head size will not impact the pros as much as people think. Most modern 3 woods are well under 200cc and below the CT limit (typical persimmon size was 190cc) and many pros regularly hit those longer than the average driving distance 40+ years ago with little problem. Any size rollback would be far more burdensome for the amateurs than the pros.

3) If the proposal is bifurcation keep in mind that the "Pro" related equipment will still need to be available at retail for aspiring pros that do not have OEM support. Also, amateurs like mimicking what they see on TV so there will be plenty of poser demand.

4) The industry was looking for alternatives to persimmon well before the 90s (most wood club heads at that point were actually made from laminated maple due to the increased durability and lower cost). Anyone supporting a rollback citing environmental concerns absolutely should not be proposing requiring any equipment made of wood. Metal/composites are here to stay no matter what.

 

As for course conditions being firmer 60 years ago, maybe so if you isolate it to common irrigation techniques, but they were also not cutting fairways as low nor rolling them like greens. Add the additional ball speed players regularly see today mainly due to swinging faster/launch condition optimization and that explains a big chunk of the distance increases.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I didn’t miss the point. The 340 guy has an advantage over a 280 guy on a 260 yard hole. The 340 guy can drive the green with some sort of iron, but the 280 guy is probably hitting a 3 wood. Then, when the get to the next hole, which is a 190-yard par 3, Mr. 340 might hit 7-8 iron, and Mr. 280 hits 4-5 iron.

I guess I don’t see how being 60 yards longer than another guy ceases to be an advantage if the hole is shorter than your driver distance.

[golfer07840]

I'll try to explain this thought as best I can. Forgive the rambling.

But per the USGA, a "Male Scratch golfer can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level." So there is that. And that's why I said, if you hit it 250 and are decent around the greens, you should be nowhere near a 15.

Obviously if you hit it further, you're closer to the green (assuming you're somewhat straight and in the short stuff), shorter club, proximity to the hole should be better, better chances at birdies, etc.

Chances are, those players are playing from further back, which means a higher rating and slope. And when you score decent on a higher rating/slope tee box, your differential is lower and your handicap goes down.

But, if said player doesn't "score" well, then the handicap won't go down, regardless.

For example, my home course from white is 5,862 yards rated 69.1/123 - so if you shot an 85, your differential is 14.6. From Blue it is 6,395 and rated 71.4/132, so the same score of 85 comes out to 11.6. So you can drop your handicap pretty quickly, just by being longer off the tee and not even having to "score" well.

Now these 15's that you know that don't have their scores go down. What are the rating/slope they are usually playing from? If it's close to the Blue numbers I gave you, their course handicap would actually be 17. So that means if they played to their Handicap, they should shoot 88. As we all know, usually you score 3 above, so that brings it to 91. The 85 I gave as an example, would be "one of those days" that if he/she did that in a tournament, they would be accused of sandbagging. LOL

 

[storm319]

Again, more focused on the qualitative optics of the journey than the outcome. Not a legitimate justification for a massive regulatory change.

[storm319]

To be fair, baseball has always been boring as the game inherently has a lot of waiting time (as does golf) and the younger generations seem to value the time an activity takes more so than their predecessors (even though monumental amounts of time is wasted on other things, mainly the social media). The MLBs increased competition due to the overwhelming popularity of the NFL/NBA and overall decreases in scheduled TV viewership in general are also big reasons for the decline.

Basketball (and to a lesser extent football) by nature has attributes that are more attractive to the younger generations (high scoring, constantly moving) hence their increased popularity at the moment. The NBA also does a much better job of marketing individual players than the MLB.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I’ll just say that “Poser Demand” is an incredibly awesome term that I will use from this day forward. It’s so spot on and perfectly descriptive in two words.

[bladehunter]

Some Truth there. . I wonder now how I ever loved to watch it. I guess if yoU get invested in a team it becomes interesting Again.

But I do also think that They drove their core fan away as I was one. I didn’t leave because of time or lack of interest . I left when the game changed. When Bonds started Tiring into the hulk and doing things that He hadn’t done as a younger man. The last straw was when relief pitchers started out numbering all The other players. One pitcher / one batter and all that. Basically when stats took over.

 

but hey. It is what it is. I guess you can’t stop it.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I play with tons of those 12-15 index guys who CAN hit it over 250...twice in three rounds. Factor in the pop-ups, blue-dart hooks, snap fades, and roof balls, and we’re talking a sub-200 average.

Come to think of it, that might be a decent way to think of it: “distance average as a percentage of distance max” holding all else constant. I’d venture it’s a pretty inverse relationship with index. As the average distance/max distance goes down, index goes up.

If a 15’s true average (rather than potential) driver is 250, I’d agree with whomever said he shouldn’t be a 15, unless he hates making friends at the club.

[DFS PFD]

Good call on the occasional 250 yard drive, didn't even cross my mind that is typical. Many mishits in between.

 

All makes sense, I definitely see a few guys poking it out there 270 occasionally (not averaging) but often blasting the ball 270 into the weeds or neighborhood.

Good points!

[QuigleyDU]

I still love baseball.

[golfer07840]

I said it and basically used the USGA's definition for my reasoning:

per the USGA, a "Male Scratch golfer can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level." So there is that. And that's why I said, if you hit it 250 and are decent around the greens, you should be nowhere near a 15.

[oikos1]

And somebody wants to roll back that once or twice in a couple of rounds 250+ yard poke into a 220 yard dying quail. Just terrible.

[bladehunter]

On that note.

 

this is a question that pops up in my brain from time to time.

lets say in a vacuum. No other outside influence. You raise two golfers with equal skill level . lots of natural skill. One you allow to choose whatever club he wants And he chooses a traditional setup of irons and wedges. . And one you place the most forgiving things in his hands you can. Let’s say 3-6 hybrids. 7-pw in a g410 equivalent iron , and eye 2 wedges. Fit him to an armlock putter with a high moi face.

does the forgiveness baby score lower over time ? ( I don’t know the answer )

 

i have more experience with a very wide variety of clubs than you may think. And I’m not nearly as closed minded as you may think. Not nearly. I guess it’s just very curious to me that we haven’t seen a guy throw convention to the wind and pick his clubs 1 at a time based on a desired yardage and ease of use. For the most part irons are still thought of as 1 unit 3-9 or pw instead of “ club I hit x distance “. Yes they are gapped and dialed in. But I can tell you , it’s extremely rare to not have 1-2 irons in a set that are never 100 % for whatever reason. And also to have 1 dead on favorite in the bunch. Tiger was said to have 3 or more sets made at a time. And would pick a gamer set from those 3 sets choosing the best of the 3 for Wach numbered iron. Langer and or Bryson maybe the closest to those thoughts I’ve seen in play. Both approaching from different angles.

no ulterior motive. Just a fun brain fart.