Video - Throw clubhead outward immediately.

[Golfbeat]

Probably better to no longer talk about physics, you will dig only a deeper hole for yourself. Stick to feelings.

[COACH9]

I spending a bulk of my range time looking for feels that work for me. But being an engineer the physics part doesn't make my head hurt.

When I combine it with video, they can be quite illustrative for me.

[Golfbeat]

Physics is not for me but there are a few guys on this Forum who are really into it and studied this in great detail. Feel and see works for me.

[COACH9]

I only bring the physics to it, because I don't want to fight the physics of the swing.

I think the higher the swing speed the more important they become.

I think for people with slow swing speeds there is an opportunity to get a little more manipulative with the hands.

But at high swing speeds you have to get the body to certain positions before you let nature take it's course through impact.

[Krt22]

Please show me the physics that supports what you are saying. If you don't use your hands at all you would literally block it a mile right every shot.

[COACH9]

There has been multiple instructors talking about centrifugal force squaring the clubface automatically. But you need proper setup and body movements for it to happen. It's not about manipulating it with hands to get there. Most people probably try to fight those forces.

Why would you block it a mile unless you did something to open up the clubface?

[Krt22]

I did not ask about the instructors, you said physics supports this notion, so show us the physics.

Everyone opens the face in the backswing, it's literally impossible to not open the face except for perhaps straight forward chips. And plenty of players open it further in transition. If those players just rotated harder trying to "square the face automatically" they would hit it even further right.

[trilerian]

I don't want to argue who is right or wrong. Don't want to argue centripetal vs centrifugal force either. So let's assume rotating frame of reference and centrifugal force. Any tension in the wrists or right elbow will hinder the centrifugal force for the extension of either, ulnar deviation and the right arm straightening to close the club face. You have 2 options, start the swing by straitening these things first ala no turn cast drill, etc, or keep them absolutely free and allow them to straighten on their own. Any manipulation after the start of body rotation will hinder the process.

[COACH9]

If you open it with hands you are asking for trouble. If you open with rotation of arms that you can put that back on the downswing fairly easily without fighting the natural forces at work.

[glk]

So when you twirl a ball on a string with your wrists how does centrifugal force get the ball rotating from a stopped position? Isn't it the torque provided by your hands/wrists? and the centripetal force generated by the tension in the string just maintains the circular motion - stop the torque, stop the circular motion. And glad to agree with Sasho but did you hear him mentioned centripetal/centrifugal force, I didn't?

There's a guy named Mandarin that wrote a fairly hefty essay on this and did all the math. I'll spare you the gory details and give the summary Centrifugal force does not power the swing. Also it does not play a role in the release of the club through impact.- The release is not caused by a centrifugal force acting through the clubhead but by a torque developed at the butt end of the club.- The impetus for this release torque is generated primarily by the radial acceleration of the arms/hands.- Swinging or hitting, the arguments above do apply.

But if you want to read it all then:http://www.angelfire.com/realm/moetown/mandrin/golf/RELEASE_MYTH_REAL_1.html

On when UD happens

Here's a more detailed look with measurements - max angle is 83* (he actually float loads)at P5 and by P6 that angle is now 109* - 26* difference so he was already UDing prior to P6 - and at impact he is at 144* - so total of 61* degrees of UD with 42% of that happening between P5 to P6. That UD starts around P5 not as late as P6 when you only have about .04 secs until impact - unless you are one of the hold the lag group.

To me, better to learn good mechanics and then associate a feel(s) with them or an intent.

[Krt22]

You still didn't answer the question, please cite the physics of what is going on where physics and "natural forces" will close the face all on their own. If you are going to make such statements, at least have a shred of evidence to support it. In reality the golf swing is extremely counter-intuitive and the best players in the world start using their hands to manage the face very early in transition (ie immediately).

[COACH9]

I'm not going to spoon feed you dude. It's been discussed multiple times in this thread, the Malaska thread and I've seen stuff in Monte's videos.

[COACH9]

I should have quit with "Will have to agree to disagree".

[Krt22]

I figured as much, pure conjecture. And you must not pay attention to Monte's video's, he has a lot of material on how the wrists work in the down swing and actually is a big proponent of this idea to throw the club from the top

[COACH9]

[Krt22]

 

That video is 10 years old, a lot has changed since then. Right in this thread, he's explaining how he throws it from the top. Big section of this Efficient Swing series is on how the wrists work during transition. And trying to hold the lag isn't at all what I am talking about, the wrists/arms can manipulate the club in multiple directions. I agree that the the club can unhinge in a largely natural manner, but for many managing the face early in transition has to be conscious move

[COACH9]

Physics has changed in the last 10 years? Wait!

Let me wake Isaac Newton.

[Krt22]

Are you purposely being obtuse? Not the physics itself, but golf instructions' understanding of the actual physics with all of the research and technology that has emerged in the last decade (3D motion capture, hack motion, pressure plates, etc). There is now much less debate over what we think is happening vs what is really happening, since it can be measured. Same goes with the modern ball flight laws, what was taught for so long ended up being debunked by the data.

 

[glk]

If you sat on the club head you could feel centrifugal force. But like in spinning amusement park rides it is a fictional force. Monte is generating a centripetal force that is keeping the club moving in a circular motion. It does not though cause the wrists to unhinge. Again they are forces acting on the com and do not cause rotation - the torque applied by the body/arms cause the club to move. Sigh.

[ALIF]

Kelly Green, is that you??

[Nard_S]

The whole left arm abduction thing blows my mind, don't even understand how Pro's swing looks so deep with only 18* of it. A thread in itself.

[MPStrat]

That centrifugal force vid Monte made is still relevant. He knows that it’s not technically correct, but I think it still has merit in terms of teaching the golf swing on the lesson tee, where being scientifically correct is irrelevant. It’s not the entire picture on how to swing the club, but it’s an important aspect that doesn’t get talked about much anymore.

[Hackinator]

This throwing from the top, I've actually been working on this ever since I posted this.

This has been my #1 swing thought.

It seems although you throw from top with the hands, you almost have to immediately put the brakes on, so the hands don't go too far forward (BIG PUSH).

I finally got my drives going pretty straight but the feeling is the hands have to stop abruptly.

So it feel likes a really quick acceleration from the top, but then followed by a quick deceleration.

Is this a feeling anyone else has?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

Your description sounds a little bit like the action required to snap a whip or a damp towel.

[Nard_S]

Yeah, similar but I would say not so much "putting brakes on" as syncing up with body rotation. Get hands more in front, sync & unload.

Getting hands moving faster & sooner, initiates an earlier transition of body while hands/arms complete backswing. Cannot think too much while doing this. A free, loose trust is best.

[Golfbeat]

Like so?

[Nard_S]

That's a pretty good description especially the pushing back off the ground part.

What's not mentioned in this topic enough is that body angles and flexion of them need to be held. If you forced to "stand up" for whatever reason, this whole thing does not work.

[PJ1120]

Kelvin's Impact Snap

[GreatStrike]

The primary purpose of the 'throw clubhead outward' is to release the club through impact where the golf club moves from being hinged on one side of the hands/wrists to re-hinging on the other side. I think most golfers have more of a problem dealing with an ineffective wrist action than they do with an ineffective pivot. The 'throw clubhead outward' video focuses on the need get the hands/wrists moving early and the feels that come from it...and then syncing-up and delivering the free swinging club with the pivot. If only the golf club didn't have a clubface the golf swing would be so much easier!

It's interesting that total beginners often (not always) release the club half-decently like it has no directional clubface or loft. They may not have much 'form' to their golf swing but from the standpoint of having an effective action necessary to beat a rug hanging on the clothesline their action is usually pretty good...and better than many experienced golfers that drag the handle through impact and never really freely release the club, which stymies clubhead speed and leaves the clubface open unless the club is manipulated. A lot of good things happen with a free unencumbered release. Learning how to do it is an entirely different matter.

Shawn Clement put out a video called the 'Baton Twirl' that I think is outstanding to learn how the hands/wrists/forearms should function through impact. Compare the baton twirl wrist action with the wrist action of a golfer that drags the handle through impact. There is no comparison! When pondering how the wrists behave when performing this baton twirl action, it should be a real eye-opener what is missing (or is drastically wrong) in most amateur's golf swing. There's definitely no handle dragging, and there's really not a rollover or crossover. To learn the proper action of the wrists in the golf swing takes practice, repetition, and the willingness to 'let go' and 'allow' the wrists to execute without interference - something most amateurs loathe to permit themselves to give up - muscularly controlling the golf club.

One thing that can be very beneficial when practicing to achieve proper wrist action is to grip down on the club where at lease a few inches of the grip sticks out of your gloved hand, much like how LPGA Brooke Henderson always grips down on her clubs. It provides a visual, as well as a perception of sorts for the conscious mind, that you are making a twirling action or motion with the golf club. This perception is aided by the fact that a little bit of the club's grip sticks out of the base of your hand just the way the end of a baton sticks out. Some of the best looking, most rewarding knockdown approach shots that stop quickly can be hit with a gripped down swing when proper wrist action is learned.

Proper wrist action is probably the last thing most golfers with sound swings learn to do - and probably the most difficult thing to comprehend about in the golf swing. Once learned there is practically no limit...

 

[GreatStrike]

Mike Malaska explains in this video how the club re-hinges and how important it is for the golfer to 'allow' (to 'let') the club's weight and momentum to move the wrists...instead of the opposite happening where the golfer tries to use his muscles to move his wrists to manipulate the club.