Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

Have you been the victim of the bad advice to 'hit down'!  Hitting down on the golf ball is bad advice!

 

Many will remember the book with the title and slogan 'Hit Down Dammit!'

 

If you want to destroy any chance of having a sound golf swing, taking a physical action to 'hit down' will certainly do that for you!

 

No special action is needed to hit down on the golf ball. A sound golf swing will naturally drive the arms/shoulders triangular shaped structure along with the golf club in a downward movement as the golfer intentionally straightens his right arm straight outward from his shoulder onto the base of the left thumb. The golfer only needs to run his naturally descending clubhead/clubface into the golf ball with adequate shaft lean and a delofted clubface that he provides and controls with a sustained bent-back right wrist through impact.   

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Nels55]

18 hours ago, shortpockets said:

 

I understand enough to know most of the data would be useless garbage, or to be more polite a waste of time.  I like to give listening preference to those having enough game to discern what is, or what isn't, more important.    For instance, listening to someone who actually tried to find a way to get off the professional tour speaks volumes to me.   He was trying to get off what everyone else was trying to get on.  

 

 

Jackie Burke was trying to get off the tour?  Reference?  If so I imagine it was because there was not much money out there when he was playing.

[GreatStrike]

36 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Jackie Burke was trying to get off the tour?  Reference?  If so I imagine it was because there was not much money out there when he was playing.

 

I think it was common knowledge that Jackie Burke didn't care for all the traveling and being away from his family - so he wanted off the tour grind to spend more time with his family and to oversee the operation of the Champions Golf Club he and Jimmy Demaret built in Houston that originally opened in 1957. Burke's final full season on tour was 1963.

[wantstonotsuck]

Wouldn’t the outward orbital swing force equate to the hitting principles taught by Ted Williams shown in the images below, except that the incline plane of the golf swing sends the resulting 3D circular path more downward instead of horizontal like in baseball/tennis?

Edited December 26, 2023 by wantstonotsuck

[Golfbeat]

Jon Rahm twisting the club head a little less than 180 degrees from P6 to P8 mainly by rotating the forearms. 

 

Edited January 7 by Golfbeat

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Golfbeat said:

Jon Rahm twisting the club head a little less than 180 degrees from P6 to P8 mainly by rotating the forearms. 

 

In no way saying that's incorrect (we might disagree on the degree of "primarily" but not overall)… and to that, how much does the rotation of the torso/shoulders rotate the forearms and thus the clubface? In other words, how much do the forearms rotate relative to the torso?

 

(I have Jon's swing on GEARS so I could look, but it'll be several days. 😄)

[Golfbeat]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

In no way saying that's incorrect (we might disagree on the degree of "primarily" but not overall)… and to that, how much does the rotation of the torso/shoulders rotate the forearms and thus the clubface? In other words, how much do the forearms rotate relative to the torso?

 

(I have Jon's swing on GEARS so I could look, but it'll be several days. 😄)

 

Would be very interesting. For myself I feel that the less the shoulders are involved the better.

[GreatStrike]

On 1/7/2024 at 3:06 PM, Golfbeat said:

 

For myself, I feel that the less the shoulders are involved the better.

 

@Golfbeat -Usually the more a golfer feels he uses his shoulders the more he is deemed to rely on a 'swinging' protocol, which equates to not using leverage, but instead trying twirl the golf club's clubhead with as much speed as possible into the golf ball.

 

However, the primary element of impact is to compress the golf ball and for that to happen with maximum force - using leverage to drive the clubhead into the golf ball is definitely supreme to slinging the clubhead around and into the golf ball.  

 

 

 

Edited March 8 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@Golfbeat -Usually the more a golfer feels he uses his shoulders the more he in deemed to rely on a 'swinging' protocol, which equates to not using leverage, but instead trying twirl the golf club's clubhead with as much speed as possible into the golf ball.

 

However, the primary element of impact is to compress the golf ball and for that to happen with maximum force - using leverage to drive the clubhead into the golf ball is definitely supreme to slinging the clubhead around and into the golf ball.  

 

 

 

Assuming path, face angle and etc. are all the same then clubhead speed is the determining factor for distance.  Applying 'force' is a myth.

[GreatStrike]

13 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Assuming path, face angle and etc. are all the same then clubhead speed is the determining factor for distance.  Applying 'force' is a myth.

 

Try telling a boxer that applying force is a myth!

 

 

You may want to read up on 'leverage' and how leverage is used to apply force - versus loosely slinging the clubhead into the golf ball at some ill-manufactured twirling-around speed. 

 

Try compressing a sealed plastic one-gallon gasoline container completely filled with water by slinging a weight (or clubhead) as fast as you can possibly sling it on the end of a string or wire (without intentional leverage). Then, take a steel rod (or golf shaft) and drive the weight (or clubhead) attached to its end into that same container using leverage; a see how much you can compress and deform that container. Leverage will reign supreme every time!  You can easily see the applied force difference in the two methods when using an impact bag... 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus has talked about how important leverage is to compress the golf ball. Arnie did too.

 

Rotational force (i.e. a 'swinging' protocol) requires both time and distance over which force is developed - but unfortunately for most amateur golfers this causes a loose and discombobulated, uncoordinated out-of-sequence golf swing with much unnecessary slack in their swing and usually discouraging results. 

 

On the other hand a leveraged golf swing (a.k.a. 'hitting' golf swing) totally eliminates the loose, discombobulated, uncoordinated out-of-sequence, slack golf swing with all those destructive wrist/shoulder/arm movement actions which most amateur golfers typically exhibit. A leveraged 'hitting' golf swing can easily produce the same or greater clubhead speed compared the best 'swinging' golf swing and will almost always be easier for the golfer to have near perfect impact timing and sweet spot contact, and provide the golfer control of his clubface loft and shaft lean.    

 

Finally, technique is everything when it comes to golf swings - and most amateur golfers can't see another golfer's technique, or the difference in two very different golf swing techniques.           

 

Edited March 8 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Try telling a boxer that applying force is a myth!

 

 

You may want to read up on 'leverage' and how leverage is used to apply force - versus loosely slinging the clubhead into the golf ball at some ill-manufactured twirling-around speed. 

 

Try compressing a sealed plastic one-gallon gasoline container completely filled with water by slinging a weight (or clubhead) as fast as you can possibly sling it on the end of a string or wire (without intentional leverage). Then, take a steel rod (or golf shaft) and drive the weight (or clubhead) attached to its end into that same container using leverage; a see how much you can compress and deform that container. Leverage will reign supreme every time!  You can easily see the applied force difference in the two methods when using an impact bag... 

 

 

Jack Nicklaus has talked about how important leverage is to compress the golf ball. Arnie did too.

 

Rotational force (i.e. a 'swinging' protocol) requires both time and distance over which force is developed - but unfortunately for most amateur golfers this causes a loose and discombobulated, uncoordinated out-of-sequence golf swing with much unnecessary slack in their swing and usually discouraging results. 

 

On the other hand a leveraged golf swing (a.k.a. 'hitting' golf swing) totally eliminates the loose, discombobulated, uncoordinated out-of-sequence, slack golf swing with all those destructive wrist/shoulder/arm movement actions which most amateur golfers typically exhibit. A leveraged 'hitting' golf swing can easily produce the same or greater clubhead speed compared the best 'swinging' golf swing and will almost always be easier for the golfer to have near perfect impact timing and sweet spot contact, and provide the golfer control of his clubface loft and shaft lean.    

 

Finally, technique is everything when it comes to golf swings - and most amateur golfers can't see another golfer's technique, or the difference in two very different golf swing techniques.           

 

 

Here is the formula for kinetic energy transfer from clubhead to golf ball:
E= (M * V^2) / 2

 

The variables are Mass and Velocity.  During the clubhead and ball collision the clubhead is essentially acting as free body in space.  There is no force component that I know of.  If you have the math for such a factor then I would love to see it!

[BombinJim]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

 

Here is the formula for kinetic energy transfer from clubhead to golf ball:
E= (M * V^2) / 2

 

The variables are Mass and Velocity.  During the clubhead and ball collision the clubhead is essentially acting as free body in space.  There is no force component that I know of.  If you have the math for such a factor then I would love to see it!

This is too simple of a model and assumes no loss of energy in the collision, or elastic collision. I could see there being less energy loss if there is a force being applied to the shaft (hit vs. swing). Unsure how much but perhaps a slightly better smash factor.

[Nels55]

6 hours ago, BombinJim said:

This is too simple of a model and assumes no loss of energy in the collision, or elastic collision. I could see there being less energy loss if there is a force being applied to the shaft (hit vs. swing). Unsure how much but perhaps a slightly better smash factor.

Assuming same contact point, same face angle and same path the determining factor for ball speed and distance is clubhead speed.  

 

The shaft is sort of S shaped at impact and the tip is flexed forward on a good shot.  The handle is a long ways from the ball and pressure on it has no effect on the ball at the moment of impact.

[GreatStrike]

19 hours ago, Nels55 said:

 

Here is the formula for kinetic energy transfer from clubhead to golf ball:
E= (M * V^2) / 2

 

The variables are Mass and Velocity.  During the clubhead and ball collision the clubhead is essentially acting as free body in space.  There is no force component that I know of.  If you have the math for such a factor then I would love to see it!

 

Take the clubhead's weight and twirl it around on the end of a 45 inch string or wire as fast as you possibly can using using rotation, and let that free body clubhead (in space) collide with a force sensor. Then, use leverage to drive that same clubhead weight on the end of a 45 inch steel golf shaft into the force sensor. The leveraged method will score the highest delivered force every time - - and with far greater accuracy to precisely hit the sweet spot pinpoint.

 

In fact, the twirled 'swinging' method may produce a force so low it will boggle the mind. The reason why the force may be so low is because controlling a swinging action is very difficult for most people - and when you add wrist action, arm and shoulder movement - controlling clubhead path and maintaining a consistent swing radius from body-center - the result is often disastrous. This is what you typically see happening with 95% of all amateur golfers at every driving range and golf course...

 

For an imaginary chance to win $1k, which method ('hitting' using intentional shaft leverage or 'swinging' centrifugally) would you pick for this contest? The mission is to sink a round weight that weighs the same as a 6-iron clubhead as deep as possible into a large 12" square block of polymer sculpting clay. You can choose to use leverage and a 'hitting' protocol to drive the weight deep into the large block of clay or you can choose to 'swing' the clubhead - essentially acting as free body in space - into the large block of clay. And to make sure it's a fair test of the two methods - for attempts using the swinging method the participant can miss hitting the X contact mark by 3" on seven out of ten attempts - - that's because they'll probably whiff the large block of clay entirely! 

 

 

                    

Edited March 9 by GreatStrike
orthography

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Assuming same contact point, same face angle and same path the determining factor for ball speed and distance is clubhead speed.  

 

The shaft is sort of S shaped at impact and the tip is flexed forward on a good shot.  The handle is a long ways from the ball and pressure on it has no effect on the ball at the moment of impact.

 

The bottom four inches of the shaft and the clubhead are essentially a free body at impact, yeah.

 

Reminds me of a sad tale… Years ago (like 12+?) there was a thread on Facebook where an instructor claimed that two players delivered identical impact conditions (speed, face, path, everything), but the man hit it a lot farther than the woman because "he put his weight behind it." 🤣

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Assuming same contact point, same face angle and same path the determining factor for ball speed and distance is clubhead speed.  

 

The shaft is sort of S shaped at impact and the tip is flexed forward on a good shot.  The handle is a long ways from the ball and pressure on it has no effect on the ball at the moment of impact.

 

No pressure on the handle is the 'swinging' centrifugal force method.

 

You may want to delve into the 'hitting' method using right arm straightening thrust applied onto the handle.   

 

Golfers often wonder how tour pros and scratch golfers make such precise contact of the golf ball on their clubface sweet spot (that makes a dime size wear mark) repeatedly every swing. The answer is they drive the clubface into the golf ball using their stronger, more skilled and proficient dominant arm and hand - straightening their dominant arm like a piston with their triceps and applying push force from the lifeline of their dominant hand onto the base of their non-dominant thumb which drives the golf club's handle, producing tremendous leverage and clubhead speed with pinpoint sweet spot delivery accuracy.

 

There is probably only 1 out of 500 amateur golfers that can use a 'swinging' method golf swing primarily originating from their non-dominant side and be as accurate making precise contact on the clubface sweet spot compared to the golfer who uses his dominant side to his advantage generating tremendous accuracy and leverage. The rare golfer that can match the sweet spot accuracy of the dominant side golfer is likely ambidextrous...   

 

'Swinging' a golf club primarily using the non-dominant, weaker, less-skilled side by generating a centrifugal method is an old school centuries-old deep-rooted method that is still taught today as the one and only way to swing a golf club. It's little wonder why it continues to produce high handicap golfers just as it did many decades ago...   

 

 

      

Edited March 9 by GreatStrike
orthography

[Nels55]

13 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Take the clubhead's weight and twirl it around on the end of a 45 inch string or wire as fast as you possibly can using using rotation, and let that free body clubhead (in space) collide with a force sensor. Then, use leverage to drive that same clubhead weight on the end of a 45 inch steel golf shaft into the force sensor. The leveraged method will score the highest delivered force every time - - and with far greater accuracy to precisely hit the sweet spot pinpoint.

 

In fact, the twirled 'swinging' method may produce a force so low it will boggle the mind. The reason why the force may be so low is because controlling a swinging action is very difficult for most people - and when you add wrist action, arm and shoulder movement - controlling clubhead path and maintaining a consistent swing radius from body-center - the result is often disastrous. This is what you typically see happening with 95% of all amateur golfers at every driving range and golf course...

 

For an imaginary chance to win $1k, which method ('hitting' using intentional shaft leverage or 'swinging' centrifugally) would you pick for this contest? The mission is to sink a round weight that weighs the same as a 6-iron clubhead as deep as possible into a large 12" square block of polymer sculpting clay. You can choose to use leverage and a 'hitting' protocol to drive the weight deep into the large block of clay or you can choose to 'swing' the clubhead - essentially acting as free body in space - into the large block of clay. And to make sure it's a fair test of the two methods - for attempts using the swinging method the participant can miss hitting the X contact mark by 3" on seven out of ten attempts - - that's because they'll probably whiff the large block of clay entirely! 

 

 

                    

I have wasted enough of my time explaining this to you.  You may believe whatever you wish to believe.

[Nels55]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The bottom four inches of the shaft and the clubhead are essentially a free body at impact, yeah.

 

Reminds me of a sad tale… Years ago (like 12+?) there was a thread on Facebook where an instructor claimed that two players delivered identical impact conditions (speed, face, path, everything), but the man hit it a lot farther than the woman because "he put his weight behind it." 🤣

The physics of the clubhead and ball collision have been understood for several hundred years.  The level of complete nonsense on this thread boggles the mind...

[NCDuffer]

E= (M * V^2) / 2

the question is which swing method delivers the most Velocity given the same Mass for the given player.

[iacas]

19 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

No pressure on the handle is the 'swinging' centrifugal force method.

 

You may want to delve into the 'hitting' method using right arm straightening thrust applied onto the handle.   

 

Golfers often wonder how tour pros and scratch golfers make such precise contact of the golf ball on their clubface sweet spot (that makes a dime size wear mark) repeatedly every swing. The answer is they drive the clubface into the golf ball using their stronger, more skilled and proficient dominant arm and hand - straightening their dominant arm like a piston with their triceps and applying push force from the lifeline of their dominant hand onto the base of their non-dominant thumb which drives the golf club's handle, producing tremendous leverage and clubhead speed with pinpoint sweet spot delivery accuracy.

 

There is probably only 1 out of 500 amateur golfers that can use a 'swinging' method golf swing primarily originating from their non-dominant side and be as accurate making precise contact on the clubface sweet spot compared to the golfer who uses his dominant side to his advantage generating tremendous accuracy and leverage. The rare golfer that can match the sweet spot accuracy of the dominant side golfer is likely ambidextrous...   

 

'Swinging' a golf club primarily using the non-dominant, weaker, less-skilled side by generating a centrifugal method is an old school centuries-old deep-rooted method that is still taught today as the one and only way to swing a golf club. It's little wonder why it continues to produce high handicap golfers just as it did many decades ago...

 

We have learned a lot since Homer died.

[GreatStrike]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:15 PM, Nels55 said:

Assuming path, face angle and etc. are all the same then clubhead speed is the determining factor for distance.  Applying 'force' is a myth.

 

@Nels55 & @iacas - I'm not denying or arguing that E= (M * V^2) / 2 is not correct. I'm simply stating what most everyone already knows about themselves - which is, that they can't do nearly as much with their weak, non-dominant side compared to their stronger, more skilled dominant side - - yet old school instruction continues to teach a lead-side golf swing when most people would be much better with a dominant side golf swing.  You can believe whatever you want.

 

I'm just offering help to struggling amateur golfers that are dumbfounded and confused about why they can't do what they know full well they should be able to do..  They're looking not for the secret because there is no secret. They're looking for a logical answer and help to overcome their troubled golf swing.   

 

For every semi-ambidextrous or cross-dominant golfer that can skillfully use their non-dominant side (typically their left) as their lead side to swing a golf club - which is a passive, double-pendulum, centrifugal force method of 'swinging' - there will be close to 100 golfers that will not be able to swing a golf club effectively with their non-dominant lead side.

 

In the case of a right-hander with a lead side swing, a lead side golf swing is powered by the golfer's body pivot that drives the swing while the golfer's trail arm and hand is passive and not directly aiding the swing - oftentimes having their trail hand come off the handle even before impact; à la Freddie Couples and Vijay Singh. Something you never saw with the likes of Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus or Player, and not other tour pros. In fact, Hogan wished he had three right hands (i.e. right sides).

 

Hogan was very testy with his regular playing buddies off-tour if he saw them not using primarily their right side to swing the club. You might wonder - How I know this about the great Ben Hogan? I know this because I was friends with a man that was a personal friend and regular playing partner of Ben Hogan for over 20 years. PGA Golf Professional/Teacher Eldridge Miles (affectionately, known as 'Big E') played more rounds of golf with Ben Hogan than anyone else. Big E knew Mr. Hogan better than any other friend or golfer - Big E knew Hogan's deep-rooted golf principles and philosophy better than anyone... They talked about the golf swing constantly.  Mrs. Hogan asked Eldridge to speak at Ben's funeral service - that's how close Big E and Ben Hogan were. Mr. Hogan shared a lot of golf swing information, including what many refer to as Hogan's secret(s) with Eldridge Miles. Myself, I listened carefully for untold hours whenever I was with Big E as he talked about his 20 year friendship with Ben Hogan and about their discussions around Hogan's golf swing. Big E played an estimated three or four hundred rounds of golf with the legend. My friend, 'Big E', passed away in 2019. I sure do miss him...    

 

I can assure you from the stories I've been told, Ben Hogan didn't give a damn what others thought that differed from what he knew worked for himself and the others he chose to help or share his golf-related thoughts with.  Hogan's right, dominant-side golf swing proved to be the correct side for him...as we all know from his historical record...       

 

In the video below, watch how Hogan puts the lifeline of his right hand over the base of his left thumb. Watch how Hogan straightens his right arm straight out from his shoulder like piston. This right arm straightening straight outward from his shoulder (not toward the target like most every amateur moves it) action is a push force applied from the lifeline of his right hand onto the base of his left thumb - this is what forcefully drives his golf swing with his strong and skilled dominant right side for power and control.  

 

 

Most people can't even throw a wadded up piece of paper into a waste paper can from 4 feet away using their non-dominant hand, much less pitch a baseball or throw a dart left-handed! It's actually very uncommon for a person to feel well coordinated and powerful using their non-dominant side to swing a golf club with the speed and the amount of force and control of the clubface needed to play the game of golf at a higher than average level. Rarely can they generate much clubhead speed and their control of the club's path and clubface is dismal. They sadly remain confused about how to swing, and they remain frustrated by their inability to do better. The answer is really quite simple - swing the golf club using the dominant side and grasp the very simple and highly effective technique of how to use the right arm as a piston to drive the the golf club in a perfect radius arc every swing and have the sweet spot of the clubface make contact on the golf ball with massive compressing force every swing. Unfortunately, most amateur golfers will never experience this achievement and the satisfaction it brings because they will continue to swing the golf club with their non-dominant lead side that is inferior for them.    

 

On the other hand (excuse the pun), a trail side or dominate side swing is the most natural for most people of average coordination because they are usually competent at skillfully and aggressively throwing a ball or other object with decent speed and accuracy. Their body movement and kinematic sequence that makes use of ground forces and leverage to produce the greatest club speed they’re capable of generating comes to them naturally. 

 

The video below pretty well describes the lead side golf swing and most people can easily see how and why it fails them trying to swing a golf club well. At 12:15 in the video the right side dominant swing is discussed.     

 

I have posted in this thread the finer points of using the trail arm and hand to swing a golf club with massive ball compressing force, and clubface and shaft lean control. It's really as simple as having a proper grip and straightening the trail arm using the triceps to apply push force from the right hand's lifeline onto the base of the left thumb, which literally drives the left arm and golf club in a perfect radius arc path that the golfer finds easy to power and control with their dominant side.      

 

 

 

 

When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it’s always the right hand I gesture with. That’s because golf is a right-handed game (for right handers), not a left handed game as some people believe. Hogan was empathetic [sic] [recte: emphatic] about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.

Quote by Ken Venturi

 

 

When golf instructors finally give up teaching a lead-side golf swing to dominant right handers and admit a lead-side golf swing is not desirable for them, amateur golfers will then finally improve very quickly - - as quickly as a right hander changing-over from trying to throw a baseball left-handed with speed and accuracy to throwing it with his dominant side... Ben Hogan and Ken Venturi knew what they were talking about! 

 

Continue the old school lead-side golf swing with weak clubhead speed (i.e. golf ball compressing force) and pathetic swing path and clubface control, and you will never ever achieve what you're actually capable of easily achieving in golf. NEVER EVER!       

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by GreatStrike
orthography

[GreatStrike]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:29 PM, iacas said:

We have learned a lot since Homer died.

 

@iacas - What has not been learned by many golf instructors/teachers of amateur golfers is what Ben Hogan and Ken Venturi knew many decades ago as the quote (below) by Ken Venturi clearly states.   

 

 

When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it’s always the right hand I gesture with. That’s because golf is a right-handed game (for right handers), not a left handed game as some people believe. Hogan was empathetic [sic] [recte: emphatic] about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.

Quote by Ken Venturi

 

Do you think Mr. Hogan and Ken Venturi were expert golfers and likely knew what they were talking about? I think so! 

 

Even a small child learns early-on that most people can't even throw a wadded up piece of paper into a waste paper can from 4 feet away using their non-dominant hand, much less pitch a baseball over home plate or throw a dart left-handed. Yet, golf instructors continue to favor instructing amateur golfers the old school method of using their non-dominant side to swing a golf club.

 

Would you instruct someone interested in any athletic sport to use primarily their non-dominant side for control and to produce speed (which by the way I totally agree that velocity is a prime factor in generating force)? I rather doubt it! And, if you did elect to do that, I strongly suspect the student would become confused and frustrated with the sport very quickly and they would never reach anything close to their natural ability.    

 

My experience confirms absolutely what Ben Hogan and Ken Venturi believes (quoted above). That said, when golf instructors finally give up teaching a lead-side golf swing to dominant right handers and admit a lead-side golf swing is not desirable for them, only then will amateur golfers improve, and improve very quickly - - as quickly as a right hander changing-over from horribly trying to throw a baseball left-handed with speed and accuracy to throwing it with their dominant side... Who wudda thunk the difference such a change-over could make!

 

If instructors continue teaching the old school lead-side golf swing with weak clubhead speed (that lacks much golf ball compressing force) and pathetic swing path and clubface control - amateur golfers will never ever achieve what there're capable of easily achieving in golf. NEVER EVER!    

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by GreatStrike
orthography

[virtuoso]

Who are all these “lead side dominated” instructors to which you speak?

[GreatStrike]

5 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Who are all these “lead side dominated” instructors to which you speak?

 

Most all of them... 

[Soloman1]

oh oh. this may get into handle torques.

[Nels55]

53 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

oh oh. this may get into handle torques.

You have measured that have you not?

[Soloman1]

2 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

You have measured that have you not?

i’ll exercise my 5th amendment against self incrimination.

 

but, i’ll offer up two simple ideas about the idea of force on the handle. please do not inflict felonious bodily harm on me until it’s been considered carefully. (not you, nels, but everyone)

 

1. hogan had an awful hook.

 

the image of hitting hard with the right hand moves the handle toward the target and can help keep the head from closing. more of a club head geometry move. didn’t increase the free body speed of the head.

 

2. some people with the club behind may use the hard trail hand hitting motion. just feels like hitting hard with the trail hand, but it’s really part of trying to speed up an arms rotational move for closing the face and head geometry.

 

i may not have said that clearly. it’s martini night.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

@iacas - What has not been learned by many golf instructors/teachers of amateur golfers is what Ben Hogan and Ken Venturi knew many decades ago as the quote (below) by Ken Venturi clearly states.

 

There's no such thing as "hitting" versus "swinging" unless you're talking about a "feel." Good golf swings do both. Again, we've learned a lot since Homer died, and he'd have likely continued to update TGM using new information as it became available.

 

TGM and many of its concepts are wildly outdates at this point.

 

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it’s always the right hand I gesture with. That’s because golf is a right-handed game (for right handers), not a left handed game as some people believe. Hogan was empathetic [sic] [recte: emphatic] about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.

Quote by Ken Venturi

 

Trail hand is not doing a lot in these swings:

 

 

I don't really care what great players SAY they do, @GreatStrike. I care what they actually do.

 

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

Do you think Mr. Hogan and Ken Venturi were expert golfers and likely knew what they were talking about? I think so! 

 

See the sentence just above. I care what they actually did. Not whatever they felt like they did. #FeelAintReal

 

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

Even a small child learns early-on that most people can't even throw a wadded up piece of paper into a waste paper can from 4 feet away using their non-dominant hand, much less pitch a baseball over home plate or throw a dart left-handed.

 

They can learn to. Most people can't hit a golf ball 300 yards the first time they try to do it either. That's a nonsensical thing to say.

 

I can hit a 7I 165 lefty… and a bit longer righty. I almost never practice lefty.

 

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

Would you instruct someone interested in any athletic sport to use primarily their non-dominant side for control and to produce speed (which by the way I totally agree that velocity is a prime factor in generating force)?

 

I would — and DO — teach them to use BOTH sides of their body to generate speed.

 

Heck, today I taught two people how to actively use the left side of their body a bit more (the left leg is pretty active in the late downswing and early follow-through):

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

only then will amateur golfers improve

 

Riiiiiiight. Only then. So how do you explain the number of students I have taught who get better? Or any of the instructors out there?

 

 

On 3/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, GreatStrike said:

yet old school instruction continues to teach a lead-side golf swing when most people would be much better with a dominant side golf swing. You can believe whatever you want.

 

I like to "believe" in facts, measurements, biomechanics, geometry, physics… You like to believe what people decades ago say they think they do?

 

On 3/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, GreatStrike said:

there will be close to 100 golfers that will not be able to swing a golf club effectively with their non-dominant lead side.

 

I have yet to meet an instructor who teaches only one side — even really bad instructors — but seemingly you might be one.

 

I teach people how to use their entire body, not just one side. Not the lead side only, not the trail side only. Sorry to disappoint you — you've made some really egregious assumptions.

[nitram]

Just when I think this thread is about snuffed out . . .

 

 

[Nels55]

Here is a quote from 5 lessons:
On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand.  But this is only half the story. HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS.  The left hand is a power hand too.  If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left.  YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT.

 

Another:
THE ACTION OF THE ARMS IS MOTIVATED BY THE MOVEMENTS OF THE BODY, AND THE HANDS CONCIOUSLY DO NOTHING BUT MAINTAIN A FIRM GRIP ON THE CLUB.

 

And another:

IT ADDS ITS CONTRIBUTION TO THE MULTIPLYING SPEED GENERATED BY THIS COHESIVE MOVEMENT OF THE BODY, LEGS AND ARMS TOWARD THE TARGET.  THIS SPEED MULTIPLYS THE GOLFERS POWER 10 TIMES OVER.  IN THE CHAIN ACTION OF THE SWING, THE SHOULDERS AND UPPER PART OF THE BODY CONDUCT THIS MULTIPLYING POWER INTO THE ARMS… THE ARMS MULTIPLY IT AGAIN AND PASS IT ON TO THE HANDS… THE HANDS MULTIPLY IT IN TURN… AND AS A RESULT THE CLUBHEAD IS SIMPLY TEARING THROUGH THE AIR AT AN INCREDIBLE SPEED AS IT DRIVES THROUGH THE BALL.  ALL THIS HAPPENS SO QUICKLY, OF COURSE, THAT YOU CAN’T SEE IT TO APPRECIATE IT.  BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.

The surest way to wreck this remarkable machinery is to start the downswing with the hands instead of with the hips.  Nearly all poor players do.