Strategy - not using irons longer than an 8 iron off the fairway

[msg]

11 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

NIce work. What was your scores over the 9 holes?

 

I checked my scorecards and the scores I got when I tried this were ranging from 39 to 42. 

 

Based on what I recall, I felt more relaxed hitting an 8 iron on my second shot, because I know that there is no way that I will screw it up or the chances of screwing it up is at least very small. Compared to when I was standing over the ball with a three wood. If the holes were wide open and no hazards were in play, I think I would have felt differently. 

 

I guess it is all based on how comfortable you are or how confident you are with the club that you are hitting. Taking out variables, makes it better. And I read it somewhere, not sure if it was Broadie who said it, something like, hit the longest shot you can, without putting the hazards in play. 

 

This reminds me of the hole 7 at the same course. When we play the back 9 on that hole, so hole 16, it becomes a sharp dog leg left par 4 about 330 yards if you play the fairway. If you hook the ball, you cut the hole short and your next shot is just a wedge, less than 100 yards. I cannot hit a draw or a hook, which is needed for that hole. Earlier in the season I kept on trying to hit a draw or hook, with the driver and I kept on failing. The right side is OB and trees. I did find the ob and trees a lot, getting doubles or triples or worse. And when I got fed up, I just teed off using my 4 hybrid or even sometimes my 5 to 7 iron. 

 

I stuck with my fade or sometimes straight shot with these clubs. Guess what, I never found the ob or trees. I was hitting 150 to 190 yard shots to the green for my second shot depending on how right side my ball ends up. If I was lucky, I find the green and two putt for par or near the green and scramble for par. If not, I get my bogey and move on. 

 

I kept on doing this and my hated hole, became, just a normal hole for me. Now, my other buddy on the other hand, hits a draw and can hook it by command, loves that hole so much. But when we get to the holes that calls for a fade or slice, then we have a different story. 

[nsxguy]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:13 PM, sshadow2 said:

 

You're being too general and I don't agree with your assessment. There...I flat out said it rather than implying it.

 

Since "typical" and "probably" is used to suggest most, I'd think you're using the wrong words.

 

On 10/13/2020 at 1:04 PM, sshadow2 said:

Jeez, this again?

 

Handicap, scoring potential, does not equate to strength/speed. It's about consistency. I don't break 90. My whole game needs work. Particularly anything above my 3h. But my 8i consistently goes 145. and my driver, if I don't slice off the planet (which rarely happens now), consistently carries 230+ even on a fade.

 

I also play with single handicappers that max distance 220 off the tee.

 

I don't know. With that description, hard to see how you can't break 90, even if you're a poor putter.

 

Or are you being too general ?

 

Oh, and if it's those "blowup holes", learn to take your medicine and get it back in play instead of trying to pull off the miracle shot - blow up holes gone,,,,,,,

 

And BTW, while not an absolute, distance is a major factor in handicap. Surely you weren't pointing out the exception to disprove the rule,,,,,,,,,, One only needs to look at the boss' poll to see that ---> https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1773112-what-is-your-average-total-driving-distance-by-handicap-we-will-cont-to-remove-not-my-handicap-s-so-the-graphs-look-good/

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by nsxguy

[sshadow2]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I don't know. With that description, hard to see how you can't break 90, even if you're a poor putter.

 

Or are you being too general ?

 

Oh, and if it's those "blowup holes", learn to take your medicine and get it back in play instead of trying to pull off the miracle shot - blow up holes gone,,,,,,,

 

And BTW, while not an absolute, distance is a major factor in handicap. Surely you weren't pointing out the exception to disprove the rule,,,,,,,,,, One only needs to look at the boss' poll to see that ---> https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1773112-what-is-your-average-total-driving-distance-by-handicap-we-will-cont-to-remove-not-my-handicap-s-so-the-graphs-look-good/

 

I’ve never believed the handicap/distance relationship. Not from my experiences or others I know and play with. I’ve stated what that experience was before. 
 

If you look at said poll, you’d see that a good portion of the 20+ hcp players are over 200 yds. Some even at 280. But even more importantly, this is such a small sample size compared to the number of registered members here, let alone golfers worldwide. This doesn’t debunk what I’ve said. 

 

Miracle shots? Do u play golf? Duffs, shanks, tops, hazards, tree limbs... there are more to blow up holes than attempting miracle shots. Hitting back into the fairway isn’t that straightforward all the time. 

 

One of my personal pain points is that I haven’t gained much distance since I was a 30 hcp. I’m much more consistent, and can do everything more often now, but I’ve always hovered around 250-60 yds with driver and I don’t consider myself strong or long.

 

Putting is one of my better skills. My prob is GIR and failure to get up and down on too many occasions from 50 yds in. I could do the 150 yd thing, but as I mentioned, ego. I don’t WANT to play like that. So... my hcp doesn’t go down. Still having fun. The OP asked about doing it though and I answered. It’s the misinformation  (from my view) that made me say more than that. 

 

I’m not saying there aren’t plenty of of high hcp players who hit it around 200, I just don’t believe it’s simply because of handicap.

 

Maybe it’s a technique thing. The short high hcp hitters I’ve seen all have terrible technique. 

[me05501]

The number one key to playing better golf is confidence. If limiting yourself to a certain set of options increases your confidence you will likely play better and have more fun to boot. 

 

I would think the approach you're considering would put a lot of pressure on your putting, especially if you hit into the odd greenside bunker or other trouble. 

 

 

[bonvivantva]

53 minutes ago, sshadow2 said:

 

 

Miracle shots? Do u play golf? Duffs, shanks, tops, hazards, tree limbs... there are more to blow up holes than attempting miracle shots. Hitting back into the fairway isn’t that straightforward all the time. 

 

 

 

I agree with this and think of lot of better players forget what it's like to be a high handicapper.  Working towards bogey golf means putting a tee shot in play, and advancing the ball while keeping it in play.

 

To get back to the OP's question, maybe it's possible to break 90 using nothing more than an 8i after your tee shot, but depending on your tee shot length, and the course length, I don't think it's a very practical nor an ideal strategy for most people.  If hitting an 8i keeps you from chunking, topping, shanking, and losing your ball, then I think it's a great short term strategy.  But to break 90 consistently, I think you'll need to learn to manage your longer clubs as well.  That doesn't mean you have to master a 3w.  Try a 2i, hybrid, 5i, whatever works.  But an 8i is seriously limiting your distance on second shots and will probably cost you strokes you can't afford.

[miamistomp]

 You may be a candidate for one length irons

[juststeve]

As as a general rule I'd say never try to hit a club that you are unable to hit at least well enough.  Therefore OP is doing the right thing for now but needs to work hard on learning to hit longer clubs.. No more than 8 iron would be very limiting.

 

Steve

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, sshadow2 said:

I’ve never believed the handicap/distance relationship. Not from my experiences or others I know and play with. I’ve stated what that experience was before. 
 

If you look at said poll, you’d see that a good portion of the 20+ hcp players are over 200 yds. Some even at 280. But even more importantly, this is such a small sample size compared to the number of registered members here, let alone golfers worldwide. This doesn’t debunk what I’ve said. 

 

Miracle shots? Do u play golf? Duffs, shanks, tops, hazards, tree limbs... there are more to blow up holes than attempting miracle shots. Hitting back into the fairway isn’t that straightforward all the time. 

 

One of my personal pain points is that I haven’t gained much distance since I was a 30 hcp. I’m much more consistent, and can do everything more often now, but I’ve always hovered around 250-60 yds with driver and I don’t consider myself strong or long.

 

Putting is one of my better skills. My prob is GIR and failure to get up and down on too many occasions from 50 yds in. I could do the 150 yd thing, but as I mentioned, ego. I don’t WANT to play like that. So... my hcp doesn’t go down. Still having fun. The OP asked about doing it though and I answered. It’s the misinformation  (from my view) that made me say more than that. 

 

I’m not saying there aren’t plenty of of high hcp players who hit it around 200, I just don’t believe it’s simply because of handicap.

 

Maybe it’s a technique thing. The short high hcp hitters I’ve seen all have terrible technique. 

 

Yes, I do play golf.

 

Now it's my turn to say "Jeez".  Dude, calm down.

 

Nobody said the poll "debunked" what you said. Or that it was anything but shared experiences of at least somewhat regular golfers. But the numbers do generally portray longer hitters as lower handicappers. And shorter hitters,,,,, not so much.

 

You said you "don't break 90".

 

And then went on to say "my 8i consistently goes 145. and my driver, if I don't slice off the planet (which rarely happens now), consistently carries 230+ even on a fade."

 

And now you say you're a pretty good putter.

 

Those are NOT generally characteristics of a typical golfer who can't break 90.

 

 

And yes, 220 yard drivers can get into single digits, even better actually.

 

But if you don't see the correlation of distance to handicap I don't know what to tell you. If is FAR more common to see a high handicapper hit it 280+ (after all distance isn't everything) than it is to see a short hitter get to scratch or better.

 

It's "proximity to the hole" and it applies to every shot one hits. The closer you are to your ultimate target the easier it is to shoot a good/great score. Distance is clearly an important factor. Not an absolute of course but a big factor.

 

You have a good evening now. 👍

 

[Krt22]

5 hours ago, sshadow2 said:

I’ve never believed the handicap/distance relationship. Not from my experiences or others I know and play with. I’ve stated what that experience was before. 
 

If you look at said poll, you’d see that a good portion of the 20+ hcp players are over 200 yds. Some even at 280. But even more importantly, this is such a small sample size compared to the number of registered members here, let alone golfers worldwide. This doesn’t debunk what I’ve said. 

 

Miracle shots? Do u play golf? Duffs, shanks, tops, hazards, tree limbs... there are more to blow up holes than attempting miracle shots. Hitting back into the fairway isn’t that straightforward all the time. 

 

One of my personal pain points is that I haven’t gained much distance since I was a 30 hcp. I’m much more consistent, and can do everything more often now, but I’ve always hovered around 250-60 yds with driver and I don’t consider myself strong or long.

 

Putting is one of my better skills. My prob is GIR and failure to get up and down on too many occasions from 50 yds in. I could do the 150 yd thing, but as I mentioned, ego. I don’t WANT to play like that. So... my hcp doesn’t go down. Still having fun. The OP asked about doing it though and I answered. It’s the misinformation  (from my view) that made me say more than that. 

 

I’m not saying there aren’t plenty of of high hcp players who hit it around 200, I just don’t believe it’s simply because of handicap.

 

Maybe it’s a technique thing. The short high hcp hitters I’ve seen all have terrible technique. 

I think the thing you are missing is average distance (even more so when it's self reported).  Average driving distance when it comes to scoring and your index over time is most important, its not the average of the 2-3 best drives of the day that is relevant. You have to look at all 14 drives of the day, including the those that are foul balls., hit limbs, etc. The closer you can get the ball to the hole on average, the better you will generally score. So when you see the distance vs handicap charts, the biggest difference is consistency vs absolute length. Better players find the middle of the club face on a more regular basis, thus typically will hit it further ON AVERAGE. I know 10s who can swing it 115+ and I know + guys that struggle to get to 100mph, but on average the + guy is to closer to the hole for his 2nd shot, since a blast OB essentially counts as a 0, if you count the penalty stroke well its 2 goose eggs.

 

The same goes for approach shots, for any given distance from the hole, the better player will generally be closer to the hole, even if he is hitting more club. So even then the duffs, shanks, tops, hooks, weak slices, etc all come into play, because the average distance you advance the ball is going to be dragged down by those mishits, which all directly factor into your scoring potential. Do you factor those in when pulling a club? No not always, but perhaps you should when it comes to clearing a hazard. Yeah you occasionally hit that hybrid 240, but if you have 200 yards to clear the water and you smoother hook one, well statistically speaking it didn't go very far and you have to take your drop and are still 100+ yards away from the hole. 

[sshadow2]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

It's "proximity to the hole" and it applies to every shot one hits. The closer you are to your ultimate target the easier it is to shoot a good/great score. Distance is clearly an important factor. Not an absolute of course but a big factor.

 

Golf Sidekick mentions using your 150 yd club. Whatever it is, to 5-shot every hole. Playing from your correct tees. You can break 90. So if you have one club that can get you to 150, you will break 90 if you can execute your shots (keep them in play). I'm not arguing that you need some distance, but I don't believe that has anything to do with handicap.

 

The poll only talks about driver, and a lot more lower hcp'er responded to the poll compared to high hcp'ers. I don't think it's relevant at all. I may mishit my driver half the time, but when I do connect, it carries 230 yds. Is the issue really about distance or consistency?

 

Lastly, I only said putting was one of my better skills. I never said I was pretty good.

[bonvivantva]

12 minutes ago, sshadow2 said:

Golf Sidekick mentions using your 150 yd club. Whatever it is, to 5-shot every hole. Playing from your correct tees. You can break 90. So if you have one club that can get you to 150, you will break 90 if you can execute your shots (keep them in play). I'm not arguing that you need some distance, but I don't believe that has anything to do with handicap.

 

The poll only talks about driver, and a lot more lower hcp'er responded to the poll compared to high hcp'ers. I don't think it's relevant at all. I may mishit my driver half the time, but when I do connect, it carries 230 yds. Is the issue really about distance or consistency?

 

Lastly, I only said putting was one of my better skills. I never said I was pretty good.

 

I've seen the golf sidekick videos.  He seems to specialize in course management, strategy, and mental game.  I think the point of the 150 yard club videos is to show you the value of playing smart/strategic golf.  It's better to hit a bunch of 150 yard shots than to bomb a drive OB, and you can even break 90 doing it.  I don't think golf sidekick has ever said that hitting your 150 yard club is the best way to break 90, or a good idea to consistently break 90.  If you watch some of his other videos, he'll be out with his friends of varying handicap and he'll discuss strategy.  He'll often suggest they take something other than driver off the tee, but only sometimes, not always or even usually.  My point is that to give yourself the best change at consistently breaking 90 (or any goal), you should play smart golf, which is to say you should hit the longest club you can put in play that will avoid danger.  If you hit 150 off the tee, but there is a trap another 150 out, would golf sidekick recommend hitting your 150 club again?  Definitely not.  That's why you need to be confident/skilled enough to hit more than just one club.  Sticking to an 8i could very well be someone's best change at breaking 90 in the short term, but I don't think limiting yourself to an 8i is the best approach for anyone looking to consistently break 90.

[sshadow2]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I think the thing you are missing is average distance (even more so when it's self reported).  Average driving distance when it comes to scoring and your index over time is most important, its not the average of the 2-3 best drives of the day that is relevant. You have to look at all 14 drives of the day, including the those that are foul balls., hit limbs, etc. The closer you can get the ball to the hole on average, the better you will generally score. So when you see the distance vs handicap charts, the biggest difference is consistency vs absolute length. Better players find the middle of the club face on a more regular basis, thus typically will hit it further ON AVERAGE. I know 10s who can swing it 115+ and I know + guys that struggle to get to 100mph, but on average the + guy is to closer to the hole for his 2nd shot, since a blast OB essentially counts as a 0, if you count the penalty stroke well its 2 goose eggs.

 

The same goes for approach shots, for any given distance from the hole, the better player will generally be closer to the hole, even if he is hitting more club. So even then the duffs, shanks, tops, hooks, weak slices, etc all come into play, because the average distance you advance the ball is going to be dragged down by those mishits, which all directly factor into your scoring potential. Do you factor those in when pulling a club? No not always, but perhaps you should when it comes to clearing a hazard. Yeah you occasionally hit that hybrid 240, but if you have 200 yards to clear the water and you smoother hook one, well statistically speaking it didn't go very far and you have to take your drop and are still 100+ yards away from the hole. 

I understand what your getting at, and I appreciate the input. I think you are right on each count. However, this part of the convo didn't start about stats, distance to the hole, or whether a lower hcp'er hits it farther and more consistently. It started from the statement: "He's said he's trying to break 90, so his typical drive is about 200 yards, not 250".

 

I didn't agree with this.

 

Unfortunately, this made some of us go off-topic. Sorry OP.

[sshadow2]

3 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

 

I've seen the golf sidekick videos.  He seems to specialize in course management, strategy, and mental game.  I think the point of the 150 yard club videos is to show you the value of playing smart/strategic golf.  It's better to hit a bunch of 150 yard shots than to bomb a drive OB, and you can even break 90 doing it.  I don't think golf sidekick has ever said that hitting your 150 yard club is the best way to break 90, or a good idea to consistently break 90.  If you watch some of his other videos, he'll be out with his friends of varying handicap and he'll discuss strategy.  He'll often suggest they take something other than driver off the tee, but only sometimes, not always or even usually.  My point is that to give yourself the best change at consistently breaking 90 (or any goal), you should play smart golf, which is to say you should hit the longest club you can put in play that will avoid danger.  If you hit 150 off the tee, but there is a trap another 150 out, would golf sidekick recommend hitting your 150 club again?  Definitely not.  That's why you need to be confident/skilled enough to hit more than just one club.  Sticking to an 8i could very well be someone's best change at breaking 90 in the short term, but I don't think limiting yourself to an 8i is the best approach for anyone looking to consistently break 90.

Never said it was the best way, just that it can be done this way. Golf Sidekick mentions playing your most confident club that goes 150 yds, and play every hole to a 5 to break 90 which is bogey golf. He didn't say it was the only way. Just a way.

 

His course management/playing partners videos are different. He would suggest you hit your 140 club to keep the trap out of play.

[Wormkiller]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yes, I do play golf.

 

Now it's my turn to say "Jeez".  Dude, calm down.

 

Nobody said the poll "debunked" what you said. Or that it was anything but shared experiences of at least somewhat regular golfers. But the numbers do generally portray longer hitters as lower handicappers. And shorter hitters,,,,, not so much.

 

You said you "don't break 90".

 

And then went on to say "my 8i consistently goes 145. and my driver, if I don't slice off the planet (which rarely happens now), consistently carries 230+ even on a fade."

 

And now you say you're a pretty good putter.

 

Those are NOT generally characteristics of a typical golfer who can't break 90.

 

 

And yes, 220 yard drivers can get into single digits, even better actually.

 

But if you don't see the correlation of distance to handicap I don't know what to tell you. If is FAR more common to see a high handicapper hit it 280+ (after all distance isn't everything) than it is to see a short hitter get to scratch or better.

 

It's "proximity to the hole" and it applies to every shot one hits. The closer you are to your ultimate target the easier it is to shoot a good/great score. Distance is clearly an important factor. Not an absolute of course but a big factor.

 

You have a good evening now. 👍

 

No worries mate, it is sad that even a simple discussion topic like this isn't immune to highjacking by big d*** egos for a pissing contest.

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Wormkiller

[sshadow2]

@Wormkiller

 

Personal update.

 

Decided to put my money where my mouth was. Played at 9-hole 34.7/112 course with 2 par 5s at 480+ and all but one par 4 around 350+ yds. Two par 4s are over 400. 3115 yds total length.

 

6i thru LW only.

 

Side note: I recently got a gap fitting and found my 6i lacking. Getting it back in time for the round, I was pretty wayward with it off the tee. Missing 4 out of 7 fairways with it 😞

 

Shot 44. My best score by 3 shots on this course.

 

Playing bogey golf, I shot 44 (par 36). It would have been lower but I got a silly 3 putt on a par 5 for a 6, and played a bad chip on a par 3 for a 5. Had 3 pars: both par 5s, and one of the par 3s.

 

Note: My 6i is my 170-5 yd club which is why I get to the par 5s for par. The first one took me 4 shots into the green but I one putted.

 

It was a comfortable round for me. I missed my longer clubs but in hindsight, it was a less stressful round than I've ever had here. And I didn't have to face a single tree.

 

I know you mentioned 8i and higher but I wouldn't be able reach some of my par 4s in 3 shots.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by sshadow2