Stack and Tilt... here I come?

[Cwing]

13 hours ago, farmer said:

And where is Aaron Baddely these days?

 

 

Not sure if that is a legit question or a slap at S&T.

Either way, I don’t know that Badd’s and his issues within his game relate to us average hacks that fight a sway.

 

I’ve had on/off success using Monte’s “No Turn/Cast”, Power Package and Tour Striker (Martin Chucks) stuff. I have also had in person lessons with a local pro.
 

I try to be connected during my swing. I often warm up using towel across my chest to keep the connection. Ultimately, no matter what I do, excess body movement (sway) always finds its way into my swing. The sway is my primary downfall.

 

The Eric Cogorno video with Tom Saguto seems to have clicked for me. Connected swing, hands just a little more inside and around with 55% of weight on forward leg (left) with primary focus maintaining a centered head and contacting the ground on the same spot.

 

I tried this at range prior to a round. Hit maybe 20-25 balls before teeing off. I didn’t hit it all that well but used it during my round anyway.  Flew three greens and hit driver thru fairway twice. Ball going higher. Ball going farther. No more effort, actually feels like less effort.
 

Despite flying the greens and hitting through the fairway twice. I had my lowest 2021 score to that point. Round 2 using these feels. Not quite as solid contact. Windy day causing some indecision. Not quite as focused on making sure I’m hitting ground in same spot on every swing. That stated, one week, one round removed from previous low score of 2021 and I bested that score by 5 strokes.

 

In a nut shell, wherever Badd’s is, has zero to do with me and my swing.

 

Lastly, granted it’s only two rounds but to this point, less lowers back pain for me, not more (55 yrs).

Edited June 1, 2021 by Cwing

[Etzwane]

20 hours ago, Moonlightgrm said:

I stumbled across a few of Tom Saguto’s videos over the winter. When the 2021 golf season began I decided to try his method on the driving range. I was surprised at my results. I was hitting crisp shot after crisp shot. However, the next morning, I awoke with hip and lower back pain. I tried the method again and felt the pain, once again. Apparently, my body does not like the stack and tilt method. My tried and true golf swing works just fine! 

 

A couple of pointers as to what could cause the back pain:

 

- the hip slide in the DS is not towards the target line nor the target but almost parallel to the target line (base of the swing plane  to be precise and cover the case of open/close stance)

 

- the spine extends from the thoracic spine up and not from the lumbar spine

 

 

 

 

[Etzwane]

multiple posts...

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Etzwane

[Etzwane]

multiple post...

Edited June 1, 2021 by Etzwane

[tm3]

Saguto is kind of fun to watch sometimes because he is such a character.  Hard to believe that he was shooting mid-90s (as he says) while working on his PGA certification.

 

I wonder if teaming up with Cogorno is to try to bring credibility to Saguto, or the other way around?

[mvhoffman]

13 minutes ago, tm3 said:

Saguto is kind of fun to watch sometimes because he is such a character.  Hard to believe that he was shooting mid-90s (as he says) while working on his PGA certification.

 

I wonder if teaming up with Cogorno is to try to bring credibility to Saguto, or the other way around?

He was really struggling before he took up S&T.  We have messaged back and forth on Instagram multiple times.  he said this method has actually given him the love of golf back.  I just watched one of his videos yesterday that opened my eyes to an issue i've been having.

[chipa]

My brother at 50 something who has never played gold has paid thousands of dollars gettign lessons with little results until he found Bradley Huges. His results have been very impressive, to the point that he will be changing his equipment because he hits his irons too far, more than likely blades and a cb combo.

 

I believe the secret to Hughes method maybe hitting into a bag with short swings repeatedly over the course of months. This is a very old technique that I read about that goes back more than 100 years. A pro once told me that pga pros learned efficient mechanics at an early age hitting short pitches, and I think hitting the bag as Hughes recommend it is doing the same thing. It can be done with an old tire like Henry Cotton recommended it. The great thing about this technique is that it requires a dynamic swing based on feeling the loading and unloading of the hands,, feet, etc as opposed to worrying about getting into proper positions.

[Gsea]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

My brother at 50 something who has never played gold has paid thousands of dollars gettign lessons with little results until he found Bradley Huges. His results have been very impressive, to the point that he will be changing his equipment because he hits his irons too far, more than likely blades and a cb combo.

 

I believe the secret to Hughes method maybe hitting into a bag with short swings repeatedly over the course of months. This is a very old technique that I read about that goes back more than 100 years. A pro once told me that pga pros learned efficient mechanics at an early age hitting short pitches, and I think hitting the bag as Hughes recommend it is doing the same thing. It can be done with an old tire like Henry Cotton recommended it. The great thing about this technique is that it requires a dynamic swing based on feeling the loading and unloading of the hands,, feet, etc as opposed to worrying about getting into proper positions.

Not S&T, not even close

[chipa]

1 minute ago, Gsea said:

Not S&T, not even close

 

It isn't of course I should have pointed out that I don't think stack and tilt is good for older people because of the strain on the lower back and left knee.

[Gsea]

29 minutes ago, tm3 said:

Saguto is kind of fun to watch sometimes because he is such a character.  Hard to believe that he was shooting mid-90s (as he says) while working on his PGA certification.

 

I wonder if teaming up with Cogorno is to try to bring credibility to Saguto, or the other way around?

If you can handle his antics he actually has good technique and instruction. He gave me good insight into S&T. Just following Bennett and Plummer was a little to detailed and too much to think about. Saguto "simplified" it for me. 

[Gsea]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

It isn't of course I should have pointed out that I don't think stack and tilt is good for older people because of the strain on the lower back and left knee.

just the opposite no back strain at all compared to "conventional" methods. Left knee is no different than any other swing.

[chipa]

1 minute ago, Gsea said:

just the opposite no back strain at all compared to "conventional" methods. Left knee is no different than any other swing.

 

I'm happy it doesn't bother you. However, I have tried it and it hurts and have read this happens to others as well. After all the stack and tilt for most peple causes them to stay on their left side, thus robbing them of the easy power from a good weightshift, which in turn causes many people to turn their shoudlers and pull their left side back more vigorosly to generate clubhead speed.

[Gsea]

4 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I'm happy it doesn't bother you. However, I have tried it and it hurts and have read this happens to others as well. After all the stack and tilt for most peple causes them to stay on their left side, thus robbing them of the easy power from a good weightshift, which in turn causes many people to turn their shoudlers and pull their left side back more vigorosly to generate clubhead speed.

As a 15 cap range wizard you need to revisit the fundamentals of S&T, cuse u got it all wrong.

[chipa]

24 minutes ago, Gsea said:

As a 15 cap range wizard you need to revisit the fundamentals of S&T, cuse u got it all wrong.

 

The stack and tilt has been around a while and I don't think there is a lot to it, I believe that's why its popular. However, I'm not the only one who has pointed it that it can be hard on the back and left leg, after all it is a primarily a pulling action.

[NoTalentLefty]

I started using a modified version last year after having problems with a more conventional setup with weight shift , which came with hip replacements. Will it cause hip problems or pain ? Not for me but not using everything the book said other than setup. The pictures in the S&T book looked like it added extreme tension in the golf swing. Maybe not on purpose nether the less it gives that impression by images. 

[Oldboy]

aaron baddeley

mike weir

charlie wi

 

someone should ask these guys what they think ..

 

good luck fellas .. been there don't wanna go back there

[Gsea]

1 hour ago, Oldboy said:

aaron baddeley

mike weir

charlie wi

 

someone should ask these guys what they think ..

 

good luck fellas .. been there don't wanna go back there

lmao

[Gsea]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

 

The stack and tilt has been around a while and I don't think there is a lot to it, I believe that's why its popular. However, I'm not the only one who has pointed it that it can be hard on the back and left leg, after all it is a primarily a pulling action.

pulling action?  not even close, down swing starts with the lower body as in 95% of all swings. read before  posting falsehoods.

[chipa]

22 minutes ago, Gsea said:

pulling action?  not even close, down swing starts with the lower body as in 95% of all swings. read before  posting falsehoods.

 

That's what happens to me and others as well from what i have read, after all if you are not pushing off your "lower body" right side your pulling with the left side. I'm glad it works for you.

[Cwing]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

That's what happens to me and others as well from what i have read, after all if you are not pushing off your "lower body" right side your pulling with the left side. I'm glad it works for you.

That’s not what I’m seeing in his Tom Saguto’s videos.
 

Weight 55% on forward leg. Shoulder moves downward towards ball in backswing. Swing around the belt line firing from the right maintaining an extended (not locked) forward arm. Keep head centered. Push off from from the ground up on the thru swing.

[Gsea]

39 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

That's what happens to me and others as well from what i have read, after all if you are not pushing off your "lower body" right side your pulling with the left side. I'm glad it works for you.

If you do it incorrectly, like u describe, it won't work.

[Cwing]

For those that have switched, did you find a need to flatten your lies?

[Gsea]

in a nut shell he claims a weight shift is not advisable for most. The claim is there is too much going on and it is too challenging  to get the club back square and shift the weight.  He also claims with no shift, the axis isn't moving so getting square at contact is much more likely. 

Per Henny Bogan

 

 

 

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Gsea said:

 

in a nut shell he claims a weight shift is not advisable for most. The claim is there is too much going on and it is too challenging  to get the club back square and shift the weight.  He also claims with no shift, the axis isn't moving so getting square at contact is much more likely. 

Per Henny Bogan

 

 

 

 

The problem with this method is that w/o the legs the body has to find other ways to generate adequate clubhead speed, such as the lower back. If one is content with swinging at 60% of their potential thats ok, but most high hc swing to the point of being off balance.

 

Many golf "models" out there are behind the times compared to baseball and tennis, which have shown tha the elastic connections in the body store and release energy like a rubberband, and so the easy clubhead speed created by a good weightshift is minimized.

[dap]

I think S&T is more suited to amateurs than pros or elite players. In my opinion, S&T help promote to strike the ball first before turf for players who sweep release which is most ams. Without weight on left side, sweep releasing can lead to fat and thin strikes. Pros generally release later so they don’t have these issues even without S&T. You just don’t see many strictly by the book S&T swings on tour. Charlie Wi is probably the exception.
 

I think it’s a good method for those that release a tad early. If you look at Saguto’s swing, he releases quite early so that’s why S&T has helped him strike it solid by hitting ball first and then turf.

[Etzwane]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

 

The problem with this method is that w/o the legs the body has to find other ways to generate adequate clubhead speed, such as the lower back. If one is content with swinging at 60% of their potential thats ok, but most high hc swing to the point of being off balance.

 

Many golf "models" out there are behind the times compared to baseball and tennis, which have shown tha the elastic connections in the body store and release energy like a rubberband, and so the easy clubhead speed created by a good weightshift is minimized.

 

I'm afraid you have been fed with complete misinformation about what S&T is. Did you try with an instructor?

 

S&T is not a pulling motion, the right arm speed is very important, in fact the swing has been categorized (by someone smarter than me ;-)) as TGM Hitting on the Elbow Plane. The legs do participate in the swing and also for speed but more emphasis is put on the left leg. There should not be any pressure on the lower back: S&T promotes the tilt-while-rotating to use the full range of motion of the spine and is not a resistance model (like X-factor) and the flexion-extension of the spine is supposed to happen from the thorax upwards.

 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 4/18/2021 at 3:50 AM, stingerfade said:

Actually most of teaching today uses it for the backswing even if they don’t know it 

This is true in regards to the lead knee moving towards the ball to all the trail knee to extend so that the hips can rotate.  I think that S&T used to advocate trying to keep the weight and pressure forward though if I recall. Now it is known that both weight and pressure shift to the trail side even though visual appearance looks to be "stacked." I do think there are some good things that can be drawn from some of the principles of S&T.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Righty to Lefty

[mvhoffman]

In the research and studying that I have done, maybe I should have said "staying stacked" as opposed to S&T.  As described in multiple lessons and books from Ben Hogan, he talks about the weight "shift" by turning but weight staying forward and staying on top of the ball is a concept shared by both styles.  Also, as described by an interview/instruction in Golf Digest from Tiger Woods last year stating " Keep your shoulders, hips and knees stacked."  Again a concept of S&T meets "conventional."

 

I'm not saying one is better than another.  Yes, if you are having issues, maybe you should really see a teacher to figure it out.  However... for all of us that have never seen a teacher, or simply don't want to spend time with a teacher (between work, kids, life...) and would rather find it in the dirt by ourselves, maybe blending some of the concepts of S&T and conventional together would not be a bad thing.  

 

We all have heard "S&T is horrible, don't do it" blah... blah... blah...

 

Frankly, no golf swing is "new"  Each concept has the bones and basis from different components of different concepts meshed together.  This is the reason why there are so many different teachers out there.  If there was only one method, there would only be one style of teaching.  

 

Maybe before criticizing others on the method and style that they choose, realize that no body, no swing, no human is the same (even twins).  We all are a little different and golf is an outlet where we can all come together.  

 

I am proudly using some concepts from S&T and conventional to play my game.  Will I ever be a pro, NO.  Am I okay with that... Yes.  

[Gsea]

Over do any swing concept and you are dead. I think what kills most that try S&T is too much weight on the left. For me I found that by straightening the right leg and staying stacked you can't help but have the weight stay left and continue left. KFC crispy lol

[Gsea]

11 hours ago, Cwing said:

For those that have switched, did you find a need to flatten your lies?

I have always played 2* or more flat. But it actually is an interesting question. Someone should ask P & B.