Stack and Tilt... here I come?

[chipa]

7 hours ago, Etzwane said:

 

I'm afraid you have been fed with complete misinformation about what S&T is. Did you try with an instructor?

 

S&T is not a pulling motion, the right arm speed is very important, in fact the swing has been categorized (by someone smarter than me ;-)) as TGM Hitting on the Elbow Plane. The legs do participate in the swing and also for speed but more emphasis is put on the left leg. There should not be any pressure on the lower back: S&T promotes the tilt-while-rotating to use the full range of motion of the spine and is not a resistance model (like X-factor) and the flexion-extension of the spine is supposed to happen from the thorax upwards.

 

 

Keeping the weight on the left side hinders the hip turn so while one may turn their shoulders less there is still strain on the back, just like any shoulder turn. Since the power afforded by a weight shift is all but non existant in the stack and tilt many golfers will try to compensate by turning their shoulders faster and pulling the left hip back, it's only natural.

 

IMO from trying just about every swign theory out there the weight shift is important as well as what the hands are doing. With that in mind their is no easier way to teach this natuarally to someone than have them make short repeated swings into a tire. This is an old method of teachig the golf swing that goes back more than one hundred years, even before there were many tires to be had, people hit into banks of mud instead. My brother has spent thousands of dollars on golf lessons in the last year but his currect teacher had him do this and in a matter of months his swing changed completely, and he is a new golfer at 54. His swing has improved so much he will be changing his GI distance irons to players blades/cb.

 

 

[Mono]

 

i saw a great SnT instructor - unfortunately he moved - i was a full on skeptic before i met him

 

my lie angles went from 2 degrees upright to 2 degree flat 

 

i can't figure out why anyone's back would hurt more with this method -  it's not particularly different than what people consider conventional - most tour pros barely move off the ball - they tilt, turn and extend on the backswing - so basically we are talking about degrees of those and how pressure moves

 

Bads went from top 20 in the world to much higher than that after he left snt - it's hard for me to understand why he would regret working with those guys

 

Cjeka has worked with snt on and off for years - seems like it's been okay - i didn't see that old man wincing about back pain last week

 

there are plenty of different ways to hit a golf ball - there shouldn't be too much hate on this method - it's not really that unconventional

 

 

 

 

 

[Etzwane]

22 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Keeping the weight on the left side hinders the hip turn

 

 

 

Not at all, there is plenty of hip rotation in S&T thanks to the flexing/straightening of the legs, typically 45 degrees turn in the backswing and 90 degrees at finish.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Etzwane said:

 

Not at all, there is plenty of hip rotation in S&T thanks to the flexing/straightening of the legs, typically 45 degrees turn in the backswing and 90 degrees at finish.

 

I understand most of the weight is on the left foot which for most impedes the hip turn, maybe you are more flexible than most. At any rate a vigorous leg action with weight on the left side will cause problems with people with problematic left legs and knees like myself. The stack and tilt is not for everyone.

[Etzwane]

5 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I understand most of the weight is on the left foot which for most impedes the hip turn, maybe you are more flexible than most.

 

Really no special flexibility needed, you straighten the back leg and flex the front leg then the hips turn,  and just do the opposite for the throught-swing. Better to have the feet/legs angled, not square, not to strain the knee in an unatural way.

[Gsea]

6 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I understand most of the weight is on the left foot which for most impedes the hip turn, maybe you are more flexible than most. At any rate a vigorous leg action with weight on the left side will cause problems with people with problematic left legs and knees like myself. The stack and tilt is not for everyone.

U have no idea how the swing works so quit while ur ahead.

[Cwing]

Third round in. I’m not sure I’ve ever hit the ball any better. I will state I have hit it this well before but usually only for a round or two (if that) as the sway always, and I do mean always, comes back.

 

Seldom have I hit it this well for this long. The ball is going higher and longer. I am experiencing less stress on my back as I am not restricting my turn trying to not sway. As a matter of fact, I am not really thinking about my backswing at all. 55% weight forward. Swing hands around my belt line during backswing, again around my belt line on thru swing and try to tilt my forward shoulder (left) to the general direction of the ball (down) on my backswing.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Cwing

[Gsea]

Another advocating S&T fundamentals, according to WRX range wizards this doesn't work lol

 

[Gsea]

3 hours ago, Cwing said:

Swing hands around my belt line during backswing, again around my belt line on thru swing 

I like this way of thinking about the back swing I'll have to give it a try. Thanks

[Cwing]

2 hours ago, Gsea said:

I like this way of thinking about the back swing I'll have to give it a try. Thanks

It comes from one of Tom Saguto’s videos. 

[Gsea]

16 hours ago, Cwing said:

It comes from one of Tom Saguto’s videos. 

Gold Jerry Gold lol. Used this yesterday and it really helped me. So what is the downswing thought you use if any? My misses are all caused by bad transition, getting quick. But love playing a S&T version swing KFC crispy🙂

[Cwing]

48 minutes ago, Gsea said:

Gold Jerry Gold lol. Used this yesterday and it really helped me. So what is the downswing thought you use if any? My misses are all caused by bad transition, getting quick. But love playing a S&T version swing KFC crispy🙂

My thought is to just maintain slightly more weight on forward leg and don’t lunge forward by maintaining a centered head. If I’m not careful, I’ll over swing (chasing distance) and my head will move forward changing my ground contact point.  I don’t really think about much else.

[Cwing]

Played with my father (age 78) as an alternate in a 9-hole golf league last night. He played forward and I played back. There is a wide range of ages in this league. It is a short course with the tips a little less than 3k yards.

 

I put up a 39 with a double on a par 3. Hit in bunker, got above the hole and 3 putted was the big mistake.

 

I’m definitely drinking the koolade right now. That stated, I am trying to stay grounded as I’ve felt I’ve been close before. Golf is hard and always will be. It will give you a little and then kick you in the privates over and over again.

 

What helps is that I had already been working on connection using the Power Package swing trainer and seining regularly with a towel across the chest drills (mostly w/wedges).
 

I had known that my most significant error had been the sway. I had to feel like I was stuck in cement to control it. I’d hit it good for awhile and next thing you know the sway woul come back and the poor play would return. Sometimes I’d start off poorly and not figure out why until late in the round and would finish well.
 

Plane and simply, the Eric Cogorno videos with Tom Saguto is what got me to try this.
 

I had heard of Stack and Tilt but I had read so much bad regarding S&T that I never, ever considered giving it a try. When I watched videos Eric and Tom videos it just made sense to me. 
 

I feel as if the only significant change I made was to get the weight forward with the take away only slightly more inside and maintain a centered head. If I do t maintain the head, I will over swing down and follow through and the sway will come back.

 

My story…. I had just returned from a golf trip on a Wed in which I had played 6 rounds in 5 days. It went reasonably well during that time. I then found / watched the EC videos w/Tom on a Thursday.
 

the following Sat morning I decided to give it a go at the range while warming up for the round.  I didn’t hit it all that well at the range but a few shots were very very solid. As a result, I decided to give it go for the round went hadn’t looked back since.

 

To this point, I have taken this the the course my last three 18-hole rounds and a single 9-hole round. These are my lowest scores and best ball striking of the year.

Since that first round in which I tried it on the range, I had not yet made it to the range for even a single practice session. Not even a pre round warm up. 
 

On my next range trip, I hope to try Tom’s wall drill with an alignment rod.
 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Cwing

[Gsea]

5 hours ago, Cwing said:

If I’m not careful, I’ll over swing (chasing distance) and my head will move forward changing my ground contact point.

Bingo me exactly. have to maintain center head and swing within myself. This morning was hot and humid but hit my best and longest drives of the year.

[Liptakalex]

8 hours ago, Gsea said:

Bingo me exactly. have to maintain center head and swing within myself. This morning was hot and humid but hit my best and longest drives of the year.

That's exactly what happens to me. I tried to over swing to chase distance and either I lift in the backswing which changes my ground contact or I fall back because I fall out of balance

[mvhoffman]

9 hours ago, Liptakalex said:

That's exactly what happens to me. I tried to over swing to chase distance and either I lift in the backswing which changes my ground contact or I fall back because I fall out of balance

 

18 hours ago, Gsea said:

Bingo me exactly. have to maintain center head and swing within myself. This morning was hot and humid but hit my best and longest drives of the year.

I was with you guys until recently seeing Saguto's video on shallowing the club.  Once I watched this it gave me the realization when he talks about the mirror that when I swing I really only turn a little bit.  This is me, it's my swing.  I get good rotation but due to back surgery a few years ago, I dont get a huge coil/shoulder turn/rotation.  Saying that, I still can rotate however to conserve my back for the future I don't on every shot.  Back to the point... before when "chasing distance" I too lifted in the swing, lost complete awareness of the ground and simply made an arm powered swing (worked so hard to swing it slower).  Now, when I want to get a few more yards, I simply turn a bit more.  I show my back to the target when I want to go on the chase.  It has worked out great.  Maybe a thought.

 )

[Gsea]

2 interesting revelations/discoveries today. 1. my son had his first golf lesson today, know the instructor. He has been playing since he was 7-8 now 13. Played well early in his "career" but as he got older other interests took over. Long story short he developed a flat around swing which made him inconsistent. First thing coach got him to do was get higher hands ie tilt, what an improvement. 2. My own personal journey Im am happy with but just out of luck I tweaked my grip today after misses kept being soft pushes to the right. OMG KFC crispy now big game changer. Personally I think all instruction has to be taken in moderation and not full out by the letter. Oh went to a stronger left hand and a neutral/weak right hand. For me it allows me to ctrl how hard I hit the ball and still compressing the ball.  

[hack and slash]

I don’t use S&T but I’m a golf swing junkie and the one thing I look for in a method is whether advocates will put video up of their lessons with the general public. 

Say what you want about Gankas but the guy is happy to put his live lessons on social media because he knows his system works and gets real results and I think S&T is the same. 
 

I have seen S&T coaches put amazing videos up of young, old, male, female students of all levels making immediate changes during a lesson. 

 

Just as an example, go through this teachers feed and see the results she gets with her students.  Incredible stuff. 
https://www.instagram.com/ayumihorigolf/

[Etzwane]

3 hours ago, hack and slash said:

I don’t use S&T but I’m a golf swing junkie and the one thing I look for in a method is whether advocates will put video up of their lessons with the general public. 

Say what you want about Gankas but the guy is happy to put his live lessons on social media because he knows his system works and gets real results and I think S&T is the same. 
 

I have seen S&T coaches put amazing videos up of young, old, male, female students of all levels making immediate changes during a lesson. 

 

Just as an example, go through this teachers feed and see the results she gets with her students.  Incredible stuff. 
https://www.instagram.com/ayumihorigolf/

 

Darren Hopwood also posts lessons summaries (videos for the student) and pictures.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/189596837735091

[upanddown]

I had a lot of success with it when it first came out.  I've tried to go back to it a few times since without much luck.  I'd say its a way to play without having to keep your right knee flexed on backswing.  The fact that you hear little about it now means its hardly the answer for everyone.

[Florida Gator]

I’ve been using the S&T swing since the first video series was released some 12 years ago.  I’m 45 now, a 1 or 2 round per week and zero range time 4 cap.  For me, the biggest reason I continue with this swing is the simplicity and consistency.  With a single plane swing, it feels like an “open the door then close the door” action.  I’m 6’2” and used to have a 2 plane swing, this took all of the timing of two planes out of the equation.  I will add that the driver was the hardest to nail down, but once I did, the swing was a game changer.

 

I hate to see all of the negative BS posted by those that are either: 1. Highly opinionated with little to no first hand experience but appear starved for attention at home so the need to post inflammatory posts satisfies that craving or 2. Habitually lousy golfers with either no drive to improve or no real motivation to improve other than to buy a bigger cart bag to carry more beer on a course.

 

The swing change from a 2 plane to this took a good amount of focused work over a season but after that, it felt completely normal.  Good luck with your search, feel free to message me with any questions.

[Cwing]

S&T isn’t foolproof if one doesn’t focus. If I’m not careful, I can let the same old habits creep in even while doing S&T.
 

That stated, if I do the following: 

*weight 55% forward 

*lead shoulder goes down on backswing 

*swing around the belt line

*keep head centered

It’s all good……….
 

My error seems to be not keeping weight forward DURING the swing and letting my head drift too far forward during the downswing/ release.

 

When I keep the weight forward and head centered, ball go higher, ball go farther, ball go straight or draw.

 

 

……lastly, zero issues with back pain.

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Cwing

[chipa]

On 6/19/2021 at 9:18 PM, Florida Gator said:

I’ve been using the S&T swing since the first video series was released some 12 years ago.  I’m 45 now, a 1 or 2 round per week and zero range time 4 cap.  For me, the biggest reason I continue with this swing is the simplicity and consistency.  With a single plane swing, it feels like an “open the door then close the door” action.  I’m 6’2” and used to have a 2 plane swing, this took all of the timing of two planes out of the equation.  I will add that the driver was the hardest to nail down, but once I did, the swing was a game changer.

 

I hate to see all of the negative BS posted by those that are either: 1. Highly opinionated with little to no first hand experience but appear starved for attention at home so the need to post inflammatory posts satisfies that craving or 2. Habitually lousy golfers with either no drive to improve or no real motivation to improve other than to buy a bigger cart bag to carry more beer on a course.

 

The swing change from a 2 plane to this took a good amount of focused work over a season but after that, it felt completely normal.  Good luck with your search, feel free to message me with any questions.

 

The only thing I have against the ST is that it hurts my lower back that I have problems with at 56. I have tried every swing theory out there btw. Also, since the weigh stays on the left side mostly there is a tendency to pull more with he left side, which my left knee can't handle.

 

I think the ST can be good for people who swing really within themselves and don't have back or left knee issues.

[Florida Gator]

12 hours ago, chipa said:

 

The only thing I have against the ST is that it hurts my lower back that I have problems with at 56. I have tried every swing theory out there btw. Also, since the weigh stays on the left side mostly there is a tendency to pull more with he left side, which my left knee can't handle.

 

I think the ST can be good for people who swing really within themselves and don't have back or left knee issues.

I get it, but to be honest, you really need to swing within your limitations regardless of the philosophy. 
 

So as a suggestion/thought, have you tried a tad more flex on your forward knee with your lead foot open a tad more to help facilitate the follow through to reduce the impact on your knee?  Not too much, just flex the leg a tad more to engage the muscles more than letting your knee take the force…

[chipa]

26 minutes ago, Florida Gator said:

I get it, but to be honest, you really need to swing within your limitations regardless of the philosophy. 
 

So as a suggestion/thought, have you tried a tad more flex on your forward knee with your lead foot open a tad more to help facilitate the follow through to reduce the impact on your knee?  Not too much, just flex the leg a tad more to engage the muscles more than letting your knee take the force…

 

Thanks but I've gotten away from the center type of swing because I always hurt my back. I have a technique that works that I'm still trying to understand but I feel a lot of ground force and weight shift. The problem has been the takeaway, but I am getting close. I would say it looks similar to Mike Austins technique, ie hands far forward that turn over first to start the swing then everything pushes back. What is great about this is that I swing around my lower body so my lower back is tight from the beginning, plus I push from the right side which somehow is a lot easier on my left leg. When I do get it right I generate lots of speed and my back nor legs hurt. I would say that what has hindered me in mastering this technique is an incorrect left hand grip and too much tension in the arms and legs. I have to thank MLDT for helping me to understand this, plus his takeaway sequence is not too different from Austin's.

[mikpga]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:36 PM, indianagolf2 said:

Please dont...that method lost its steam

🤣

[mikpga]

On 6/3/2021 at 12:53 PM, Oldboy said:

aaron baddeley

mike weir

charlie wi

 

someone should ask these guys what they think ..

 

good luck fellas .. been there don't wanna go back there

You can also ask what Alex Cjeka thinks...

 

[Cwing]

For those that switched, where did you start? I’ve only seen a couple of YouTube videos. There are a ton of them but I’m not finding a clear sequence of them.  Step 1, step 2,etc.

 

Did you purchase the S&T vidies or books?

[Liptakalex]

I bought the book and read it it's a very good read and lays it out pretty well for you.

[Liptakalex]

26 minutes ago, Cwing said:

For those that switched, where did you start? I’ve only seen a couple of YouTube videos. There are a ton of them but I’m not finding a clear sequence of them.  Step 1, step 2,etc.

 

Did you purchase the S&T vidies or books?

I started with a book lays it out pretty well for you with a lot of clear diagrams of what to do