Stack and Tilt... here I come?

[Etzwane]

Hello,

 

there are twelve  listed here  https://stackandtilt.com/find-an-instructor/

 

Laurent

 

[Liveonce]

Looking at some stack and tilt swings, most seem to be under plane, get the club head working inside on the takeaway and into the backswing. Anyone notice this or have any feedback as to why? 

[bjh1]

One thing haters don't know about S&T, you don't have to go onboard 100%, you can pick the elements you like and apply them to your swing.  They even talk about this in the book.

 

I tried going all-in for a while last year, had really crisp contact with the irons, but a tendency to over-hook, and with the driver it was a disaster for me.  Now I'm using a modified version that works for me, and even more modified with driver.

[rondo01]

4 hours ago, Liveonce said:

Looking at some stack and tilt swings, most seem to be under plane, get the club head working inside on the takeaway and into the backswing. Anyone notice this or have any feedback as to why? 

one of the key components - addressed on page 6-7

http://www.stackandtilt.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Stack-Tilt-Golf-Swing_Final.pdf

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by rondo01

[mikpga]

On 3/8/2022 at 1:37 PM, Redpro said:

Any SnT instructors in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mike Ray in San Antonio

[archer1]

I am a convert.

 

First, a little background. I am 63, tall, slim and flexible and self-taught, taking up the game when 35. I play my driver @ 44.75 and my 5 iron @ 39.5’’. When living in Scotland 5 years ago, my handicap was 5-6. Here in Taiwan, I don’t have a handicap but shoot in the mid to high 70s. My scoring was always a function of solid driving, erratic iron play and strong chipping and putting.

 

In January, I thought about the state of my game and realized the only way I was going to make more than one or two birdies per round was to hit more greens in regulation. My thoughts as to how to improve my GIR led to my recalling that one of the key benefits of S&T was accurate iron play based on consistent contact. In this forum, a WRX’er had been kind enough to provide a link to a pdf version of the S&T book, which I then downloaded and studied.

 

This book plus YouTube resources (notably Darren Hopwood, Rob Cheney, Sulliv21 and Nick Taylor as well as swing footage of Plummer, Bennett and Grant Waite) have all contributed to my making real progress.

I have never hit iron shots as pure and as accurately. Great strikes with fairway woods too. The system also works exceptionally well for 30-100 yard shots.

 

The driver has been the hardest club to hit well but I have recently got the hang of it. My faults were - 1) Not enough spine extension on the back swing; 2) Downswing hand path moving out from my upper body instead of getting the right elbow to the right hip; 3) Prior to impact, not enough lateral hip movement towards the target.

 

I don't have access to a launch monitor but, on the course, I have noticed my irons are approximately 5 yards shorter; my driver carry is also a wee bit shorter. The latter is now around 220 yards. A more than acceptable trade-off given the tremendous accuracy improvement.

 

To close, what I have really enjoyed in the S&T learning process is how everything is connected: set-up, backswing, downswing and finish position.

[sleepyeg]

12 hours ago, archer1 said:

I am a convert.

 

First, a little background. I am 63, tall, slim and flexible and self-taught, taking up the game when 35. I play my driver @ 44.75 and my 5 iron @ 39.5’’. When living in Scotland 5 years ago, my handicap was 5-6. Here in Taiwan, I don’t have a handicap but shoot in the mid to high 70s. My scoring was always a function of solid driving, erratic iron play and strong chipping and putting.

 

In January, I thought about the state of my game and realized the only way I was going to make more than one or two birdies per round was to hit more greens in regulation. My thoughts as to how to improve my GIR led to my recalling that one of the key benefits of S&T was accurate iron play based on consistent contact. In this forum, a WRX’er had been kind enough to provide a link to a pdf version of the S&T book, which I then downloaded and studied.

 

This book plus YouTube resources (notably Darren Hopwood, Rob Cheney, Sulliv21 and Nick Taylor as well as swing footage of Plummer, Bennett and Grant Waite) have all contributed to my making real progress.

I have never hit iron shots as pure and as accurately. Great strikes with fairway woods too. The system also works exceptionally well for 30-100 yard shots.

 

The driver has been the hardest club to hit well but I have recently got the hang of it. My faults were - 1) Not enough spine extension on the back swing; 2) Downswing hand path moving out from my upper body instead of getting the right elbow to the right hip; 3) Prior to impact, not enough lateral hip movement towards the target.

 

I don't have access to a launch monitor but, on the course, I have noticed my irons are approximately 5 yards shorter; my driver carry is also a wee bit shorter. The latter is now around 220 yards. A more than acceptable trade-off given the tremendous accuracy improvement.

 

To close, what I have really enjoyed in the S&T learning process is how everything is connected: set-up, backswing, downswing and finish position.

 

If you need to rent a trackman, check out Golfit near Xinyi Anhe station in Taipei. decent price, 600NT per hour plus they got a coffee shot above them. 

[Tpfol]

14 hours ago, archer1 said:

I am a convert.

 

First, a little background. I am 63, tall, slim and flexible and self-taught, taking up the game when 35. I play my driver @ 44.75 and my 5 iron @ 39.5’’. When living in Scotland 5 years ago, my handicap was 5-6. Here in Taiwan, I don’t have a handicap but shoot in the mid to high 70s. My scoring was always a function of solid driving, erratic iron play and strong chipping and putting.

 

In January, I thought about the state of my game and realized the only way I was going to make more than one or two birdies per round was to hit more greens in regulation. My thoughts as to how to improve my GIR led to my recalling that one of the key benefits of S&T was accurate iron play based on consistent contact. In this forum, a WRX’er had been kind enough to provide a link to a pdf version of the S&T book, which I then downloaded and studied.

 

This book plus YouTube resources (notably Darren Hopwood, Rob Cheney, Sulliv21 and Nick Taylor as well as swing footage of Plummer, Bennett and Grant Waite) have all contributed to my making real progress.

I have never hit iron shots as pure and as accurately. Great strikes with fairway woods too. The system also works exceptionally well for 30-100 yard shots.

 

The driver has been the hardest club to hit well but I have recently got the hang of it. My faults were - 1) Not enough spine extension on the back swing; 2) Downswing hand path moving out from my upper body instead of getting the right elbow to the right hip; 3) Prior to impact, not enough lateral hip movement towards the target.

 

I don't have access to a launch monitor but, on the course, I have noticed my irons are approximately 5 yards shorter; my driver carry is also a wee bit shorter. The latter is now around 220 yards. A more than acceptable trade-off given the tremendous accuracy improvement.

 

To close, what I have really enjoyed in the S&T learning process is how everything is connected: set-up, backswing, downswing and finish position.

While the PDF of the book is great, and the youtube instruction by Cheney, NT, Hopwood and others is really cool, you would be doing yourself a huge favor by getting your hands on the Stack and Tilt DVD series. The Stack and Tilt 2.0 Understanding the Numbers is a 4 DVD set which can be purchased and downloaded from the official site.

https://stackandtilt.com/product/full-4-dvd-set-downloadable-copies-version-2-0-understanding-numbers-physical-dvd-pga-show/

The information is incredible and for anyone integrating S&T in to their swing, it's a must have. 

Trust me, if you digest the information on there you'll get even more out of the youtube stuff since most of what they talk about comes from the source

[scopek]

I'm curious, any senior golfers using S&T? 

[bcjim]

On 3/29/2022 at 8:44 AM, archer1 said:

I am a convert.

 

First, a little background. I am 63, tall, slim and flexible and self-taught, taking up the game when 35. I play my driver @ 44.75 and my 5 iron @ 39.5’’. When living in Scotland 5 years ago, my handicap was 5-6. Here in Taiwan, I don’t have a handicap but shoot in the mid to high 70s. My scoring was always a function of solid driving, erratic iron play and strong chipping and putting.

 

In January, I thought about the state of my game and realized the only way I was going to make more than one or two birdies per round was to hit more greens in regulation. My thoughts as to how to improve my GIR led to my recalling that one of the key benefits of S&T was accurate iron play based on consistent contact. In this forum, a WRX’er had been kind enough to provide a link to a pdf version of the S&T book, which I then downloaded and studied.

 

This book plus YouTube resources (notably Darren Hopwood, Rob Cheney, Sulliv21 and Nick Taylor as well as swing footage of Plummer, Bennett and Grant Waite) have all contributed to my making real progress.

I have never hit iron shots as pure and as accurately. Great strikes with fairway woods too. The system also works exceptionally well for 30-100 yard shots.

 

The driver has been the hardest club to hit well but I have recently got the hang of it. My faults were - 1) Not enough spine extension on the back swing; 2) Downswing hand path moving out from my upper body instead of getting the right elbow to the right hip; 3) Prior to impact, not enough lateral hip movement towards the target.

 

I don't have access to a launch monitor but, on the course, I have noticed my irons are approximately 5 yards shorter; my driver carry is also a wee bit shorter. The latter is now around 220 yards. A more than acceptable trade-off given the tremendous accuracy improvement.

 

To close, what I have really enjoyed in the S&T learning process is how everything is connected: set-up, backswing, downswing and finish position.

I'm a semi convert. Driving and putting have been my strengths so I just do what I do there but my iron game was killing me. Incorporating some of the S&T stuff has definitely helped. I like Cheney too.

[archer1]

13 hours ago, scopek said:

I'm curious, any senior golfers using S&T? 

In my post on 29/3, I admitted to being 63.

[scopek]

12 hours ago, archer1 said:

In my post on 29/3, I admitted to being 63.

Thanks. For some reason I read your post as saying you're 6'3" because it was right next to saying you're tall. LOL. 😄

[silver8ack]

On 7/1/2021 at 9:44 AM, glk said:

Tiger and hogan did not and do not do stack and tilt.  Not even close.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_SXD4MFBJ7/
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQoAsY1NbuD/

Where is their weight at impact? Are they “tilting” at impact?

 

Yes. 
 

get off your high horse and realize that the teachings of stack and tilt are sound. The impact position is nearly identical for every player that plays well. Stack and tilt merely attempts to remove variables. Chill out. 

[EastTNGolfer]

19 hours ago, silver8ack said:

Where is their weight at impact? Are they “tilting” at impact?

 

Yes. 
 

get off your high horse and realize that the teachings of stack and tilt are sound. The impact position is nearly identical for every player that plays well. Stack and tilt merely attempts to remove variables. Chill out. 

Got to love the one post newbie with a first post is coming here and shilling the stack and tilt bullcrap.

[dckmcfkkd]

I am another convert. Wow! Just wow!

6'4", 225, athletic, but old at 69. Still my driver is 90 mph.

mid single digit hc until  7 orthopedic surgeries ( 2 shoulder) caught up to me. I would hit it well for a week or two and then struggle. Could never get the club back and my hands high. Had to reroute it inside on the downswing. Struggled with clearing my hips. Just all tied up. Desided to try like 5 elements after youtube.

Splayed feet.

Weight on forward foot.

Hands at impact position.

Front shoulder down.

Rear shoulder down.

I took a dozen practice swings. It felt pretty weird with that weight forward.

Just amazing. I flushed every club in the bag. I couldn't make a bad swing.

I set up with 3 w and driver and thought, oh Lord, this is going right, it didn't. I may have lost 5 yards on my irons, but none if you averaged 5 shots and straighter. My PW is fine. My SW and LW go ridiculously high. Definitely lost some distance there. The swing is so free. No manipulation, just turn the back shoulder down and go. 

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

This all reminded me of this great video from the great Tommy Armour, who taught James Bond to play golf.  At 14:00, keep the weight on the left side, except (at 19:00) for the driver.

 

 

 

In a recent video posted in the Tour section of the forum, a writer named Barkow who allegedly knew Hogan says Hogan kept his weight on this left side, while at the same time taking a swipe at S&T for its other supposedly harmful attributes.

 

It occurs to me keeping the weight on the left side may have been more common than we realize.

 

BTW, what exactly or the other unusual aspects of S&T other than keeping weight on left side (or at least feeling like you do)?  What is it that supposedly hurts people?  The rest of it (relatively steep shoulder plane, hands inside, right leg straight, left arm straight) as far as I can see seems pretty normal and in fact traditional if not universal.

 

On their site, the S&T guys say:

 

“Stack & Tilt^® Golf challenges established notions of golf coaching fundamentals. Traditionally, beginners are taught to focus on aspects like grip, stance and posture. Things that ironically vary dramatically amongst top flight players.”

 

I could have written that myself, and I think I did in this forum yesterday, excpet not as politely.

 

I can speculate that some golf teachers don’t appreciate the fact that the S&T guys disparage their stock in trade i.e. the “static fundamentals” which is all they know how to teach.

 

Finally, if there is a trade off between power and hitting the ball first, sign me up for hitting the ball first.

[Chunkitgood]

Looked at the pdf of the book.  Not terribly impressed.  Sort of like cargo cult golf, where pieces of things what might look good are put together in hopes of having a good swing somehow will magically emerge.

 

That is to say, like a whole bunch of teaching that focuses on peripherals and effects not causes, except it focuses on different desired effects.  I can see how people say a lot of the look has been incorporated into mainstream golf teaching because the look is ok, it’s just that how to move to get the look is missing or more accurately buried under too much “instruction” and too confusing.

 

If you want to learn to swing with your weight on the left (except for the driver) try Tommy Armour’s book, which is intentionally superfluous detail free.

[Xander Fan]

Two questions about ten words. Eric Cogorno was talking about stack & tilt's "ten words."

 

1. weight forward
2. shoulder down
3. hands in
4. arms straight
5. tuck hips

I'm good with everything except #3 and #5.

 

#3) Hands in on the backswing, downswing? When?

#4) Tuck hips. What does that mean? And when does it occur?

 

Thanks.

[rebel11]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:37 PM, Xander Fan said:

Two questions about ten words. Eric Cogorno was talking about stack & tilt's "ten words."

 

1. weight forward
2. shoulder down
3. hands in
4. arms straight
5. tuck hips

I'm good with everything except #3 and #5.

 

#3) Hands in on the backswing, downswing? When?

#4) Tuck hips. What does that mean? And when does it occur?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Hands In: At the beginning of the swing they want the hands moving more in to promote staying on plane.  Need to be careful not to over do it however.

Tuck Hips:  Post impact they want your hips or pelvis kicking up and toward the target.  This promote the club releasing and is a power source.  

 

This video goes into depth about it:

 

 

[Xander Fan]

5 hours ago, rebel11 said:

 

 

Hands In: At the beginning of the swing they want the hands moving more in to promote staying on plane.  Need to be careful not to over do it however.

Tuck Hips:  Post impact they want your hips or pelvis kicking up and toward the target.  This promote the club releasing and is a power source.  

 

This video goes into depth about it:

 

 

Thanks very much for this. It was very helpful.

[mvhoffman]

 

I wanted to throw this on here because honestly it just looks so simple.  Feel and real are two different things but just the simplicity and "shortness" of the swing leave me wondering how so many times playing golf the swing can go wrong.  

[skujan57]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:31 PM, Chunkitgood said:

This all reminded me of this great video from the great Tommy Armour, who taught James Bond to play golf.  At 14:00, keep the weight on the left side, except (at 19:00) for the driver.

 

 

 

In a recent video posted in the Tour section of the forum, a writer named Barkow who allegedly knew Hogan says Hogan kept his weight on this left side, while at the same time taking a swipe at S&T for its other supposedly harmful attributes.

 

It occurs to me keeping the weight on the left side may have been more common than we realize.

 

BTW, what exactly or the other unusual aspects of S&T other than keeping weight on left side (or at least feeling like you do)?

"Weight favoring the left foot" at the top! That does sound like S&T.

[Cwing]

These guys in the videos do make it look so-so simple. That stated, it is possible to overdue aspects of any swing. That’s exactly what I did. I over did the hands in and got way-way to short and lost a ton of distance, height, etc. after starting off so promising I got very frustrated with how far off everything got. 

 

Thankfully, there is a guy about an hour away from me that I’ve seen twice that helped get me back on track. I’ve had “standard” lessons before from other very good instructors but ….. I gained more improvement in a single session from him than with any other lesson I’d ever had.

 

I’m looking forward to setting up another session with him. He also contributes to this thread. 
 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/profile/22418-mikpga/

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Cwing

[dcl5dcl5]

16 hours ago, Cwing said:

These guys in the videos do make it look so-so simple. That stated, it is possible to overdue aspects of any swing. That’s exactly what I did. I over did the hands in and got way-way to short and lost a ton of distance, height, etc. after starting off so promising I got very frustrated with how far off everything got. 

 

Thankfully, there is a guy about an hour away from me that I’ve seen twice that helped get me back on track. I’ve had “standard” lessons before from other very good instructors but ….. I gained more improvement in a single session from him than with any other lesson I’d ever had.

 

I’m looking forward to setting up another session with him. He also contributes to this thread. 
 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/profile/22418-mikpga/

 

Agree with this comment. I've taken a lesson from Mike before and if you are in Cincinnati, or anywhere nearby, he is the one to see in the tri state area. He doesn't force S&T - just makes it simpler for you to hit the ball better.

[rondo01]

Throwing a quick shout out for Nick Adcock on Skillest. SnT cert, good communicator, reasonably priced, and quick on getting things back to you. Also has a zoom lesson option, and a free consultation. 

[NoTalentLefty]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:32 AM, scopek said:

I'm curious, any senior golfers using S&T? 

I’ve use the weight more on the front foot as s&t requires and no noticeable weight shift though I suspect their is a slight one. 63 with hip replacements caused me to do this. So I use aspects of it but not total convert but then again other instructors have said the above change as well. Tommy Armour was advocating it in his book from the 1950s but not with the driver. 

[kevinmdowney]

On 4/13/2021 at 10:16 AM, jordan2240 said:

I've tried it (perhaps not perfectly), and found that my front hip started hurting.  I had trouble doing it consistently as well.  Seemed I was always shifting the weight a little here or there.  My 'swing du jour' is the one taught by Brian Sparks.  It's a very relaxed swing that seems to put little stress on the body.  So far so good, but only time will tell.

Sparks reminds me of Jimmy Ballard.

 

in any case, my issue with S&T is it feels unnatural to not have some weight shift. When I tried, my left hip started hurting as well.

[dmeeksDC]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:31 PM, Chunkitgood said:

This all reminded me of this great video from the great Tommy Armour, who taught James Bond to play golf.  At 14:00, keep the weight on the left side, except (at 19:00) for the driver.

 

 

 

In a recent video posted in the Tour section of the forum, a writer named Barkow who allegedly knew Hogan says Hogan kept his weight on this left side, while at the same time taking a swipe at S&T for its other supposedly harmful attributes.

 

It occurs to me keeping the weight on the left side may have been more common than we realize.

 

BTW, what exactly or the other unusual aspects of S&T other than keeping weight on left side (or at least feeling like you do)?  What is it that supposedly hurts people?  The rest of it (relatively steep shoulder plane, hands inside, right leg straight, left arm straight) as far as I can see seems pretty normal and in fact traditional if not universal.

 

On their site, the S&T guys say:

 

“Stack & Tilt^® Golf challenges established notions of golf coaching fundamentals. Traditionally, beginners are taught to focus on aspects like grip, stance and posture. Things that ironically vary dramatically amongst top flight players.”

 

I could have written that myself, and I think I did in this forum yesterday, excpet not as politely.

 

I can speculate that some golf teachers don’t appreciate the fact that the S&T guys disparage their stock in trade i.e. the “static fundamentals” which is all they know how to teach.

 

Finally, if there is a trade off between power and hitting the ball first, sign me up for hitting the ball first.

The writer you mention is Al Barkow, a great writer and golf historian who also wrote The History of the PGA Tour in 1989. A fine gentleman who is 90 years old and lives in Florida. 
 

As for the Tommy Armour video, I like it. He is not doing stack and tilt, but there is overlap in some parts. Lots of ways to play golf. I want the easiest, most natural way. I think people confuse weight shift with pressure shift and they’re not the same. Tommy does shift his pressure to his right side in the first 2 feet of his takeaway. Not a big weight shift but a pressure shift. Can see it on the vid. There is a pressure spike in the right foot but it happens right as the swing starts and then moves immediately left. And that is optimal to me. Notice I did not say correct, but preferred. Golfers really struggle with it. It happens quickly as part of the “fall” to the lead side. But not doing it is no good. It is key for power and balance. 
 

The part of S&T I don’t like is the recommended hand/club path going back. I am not keen on that. I focus very much on footwork and knee/leg action. The concepts of stack and tilt are not in conflict with what I try to do but I find it is easier to simply work on and master the pressure shifts much earlier. It takes the strain off my left hip.  I definitely don’t want a full-on weight shift, it’s shifting pressure to build momentum and speed. Lots of technology now and they can really x-ray a golf swing and see what golfers really do. This video below was helpful. 
 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by dmeeksDC

[mikpga]

3 hours ago, kevinmdowney said:

Sparks reminds me of Jimmy Ballard.

 

in any case, my issue with S&T is it feels unnatural to not have some weight shift. When I tried, my left hip started hurting as well.

Watch the 2.0 DVD series to gain a better perspective of "weight shift".  Weight is mass, then there is pressure one feels in their feet.

[J_Tizzle]

OK, I randomly tried some SNT earlier this year and hit the irons awesome (like 7i - LW) but struggled with the longer clubs a lot.  Enough to the point where I gave up on it because I couldn't get off the tee at all.  My season is basically over so I'm looking to find something to try to work on over the off months in a simulator  and I'm really considering doing the SNT method and figuring out the driver.

 

With that said, has anyone used the Saguto.golf stuff?  I've watched a ton of his videos on youtube and he's fairly entertaining and his swing doesn't look near as odd as all the SNT guys back when  Weir did it.  It just seems to make sense because he talks more about feels than positions, which has been a bit of my hangup with the SNT book (forget the name).  It translates much better to videos vs a book.