Drop and Grounding - Two rules I'd like to see changed - tell me why not.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

I looked it up, and still am not quite sure what the difference is.  I understand you have more options with red, but I'd be hard pressed to explain it.  If I'm interpreting them correctly, then what I understand is you cannot drop out of yellow at a point lateral to where the ball went in, but you can at red; otherwise, they are treated the same. 

 

Afa relief is concerned you nailed it but the more important difference is that with yellow stakes you always have to play behind the Penalty Area even if your ball flies over it and then rolls back into it. With red stakes you may have a possibility to drop on the other side of the area.

 

Which brings us to my only concern in replacing yellow stakes with reds and that is the discussion 'did my ball land outside the PA or not before it rolled into the water'. With yellow stakes you do not have to worry about it.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

I looked it up, and still am not quite sure what the difference is.  I understand you have more options with red, but I'd be hard pressed to explain it.  If I'm interpreting them correctly, then what I understand is you cannot drop out of yellow at a point lateral to where the ball went in, but you can at red; otherwise, they are treated the same. 

 

Come spend a day riding along with me (or Mr Bean or Sawgrass or any of the other dozen or so referees here) as we help out at an event.

 

You'll be amazed at how good and sometimes average the play is, but you'll wonder how some of them got this far with such poor Rules knowledge. 

 

Relief from yellow vs red penalty areas is a common sticking point. If there was only red to deal with, some might be willing to learn it.  😉

[jordan2240]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Come spend a day riding along with me (or Mr Bean or Sawgrass or any of the other dozen or so referees here) as we help out at an event.

 

You'll be amazed at how good and sometimes average the play is, but you'll wonder how some of them got this far with such poor Rules knowledge. 

 

Relief from yellow vs red penalty areas is a common sticking point. If there was only red to deal with, some might be willing to learn it.  😉

I'm willing to learn all the rules I can, sui, even if I'll rarely have to use them given my play is mostly recreational and very friendly competition where we simply make sure we are all playing the same way.  Was playing with a buddy yesterday who had made an effort to learn the rules at one time because he played with folks who supposedly knew them, and even he didn't know how red and yellow were treated differently.  I, at least, knew they were, even if I didn't know how (I thought one might cost you 2 penalty strokes vice 1).

[rogolf]

29 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

I'm willing to learn all the rules I can, sui, even if I'll rarely have to use them given my play is mostly recreational and very friendly competition where we simply make sure we are all playing the same way.  Was playing with a buddy yesterday who had made an effort to learn the rules at one time because he played with folks who supposedly knew them, and even he didn't know how red and yellow were treated differently.  I, at least, knew they were, even if I didn't know how (I thought one might cost you 2 penalty strokes vice 1).

They are both one penalty stroke, but it's two penalty strokes if you don't know the difference! 🤣

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, rogolf said:

They are both one penalty stroke, but it's two penalty strokes if you don't know the difference! 🤣

 

Could be even three! One for getting out of the PA and 2 more for playing from a wrong place 😎

[oikos1]

Why all the fuss over dropping a ball.  Golfers have gone from dropping over the shoulder without looking, to dropping from shoulder height to now dropping at knee height.  Only a matter of time before the ball is placed.

[RSinSG]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Why all the fuss over dropping a ball.  Golfers have gone from dropping over the shoulder without looking, to dropping from shoulder height to now dropping at knee height.  Only a matter of time before the ball is placed.

 

[Newby]

14 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Afa relief is concerned you nailed it but the more important difference is that with yellow stakes you always have to play behind the Penalty Area even if your ball flies over it and then rolls back into it. With red stakes you may have a possibility to drop on the other side of the area.

 

Which brings us to my only concern in replacing yellow stakes with reds and that is the discussion 'did my ball land outside the PA or not before it rolled into the water'. With yellow stakes you do not have to worry about it.

I'm half inclined to opt for all yellow. 🤭

Virtually all players understood back on line yellow relief but many got hung up with red lateral to where it 'crossed' or 'splashed' and also 'opposite side' with red relief. Now that opposite side is covered by a local rule, they have more difficulty because most don't know it has changed.

Red was always more complicated.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

1) I'm half inclined to opt for all yellow. 🤭

2) Virtually all players understood back on line yellow relief but many got hung up with red lateral to where it 'crossed' or 'splashed' and also 'opposite side' with red relief. Now that opposite side is covered by a local rule, they have more difficulty because most don't know it has changed.

3) Red was always more complicated.

 

1) Course designers would vote you out... not to mention course staff as they would have to set up a massive amount of Dropping Zones.

 

2) Yellow as a concept is easier, but now there is only one option more so it is within the boundaries of an average mental capacity to comprehend the concept.

 

3) True. Now it is still more complicated than yellow but much less so. Remember the old Decision about opposite margins with a drawing of 4 different arcs? It took me a while to understand it because there were no direct lines between the point X1/Y1, X2/Y2, etc. to show that one of the options was not applicable.

[Newby]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) Course designers would vote you out... not to mention course staff as they would have to set up a massive amount of Dropping Zones.

 

2) Yellow as a concept is easier, but now there is only one option more so it is within the boundaries of an average mental capacity to comprehend the concept.

 

3) True. Now it is still more complicated than yellow but much less so. Remember the old Decision about opposite margins with a drawing of 4 different arcs? It took me a while to understand it because there were no direct lines between the point X1/Y1, X2/Y2, etc. to show that one of the options was not applicable.

I did say 'half inclined' 😉 but really I am nearer horizontal.

 

But please don't take offence if I seem over pedantic (as most Rules Officials have to be) when I correct you on this statement -  a massive amount of Dropping Zones - a massive number of Dropping Zones

 

See here : https://writingexplained.org/amount-vs-number-difference

[MountainKing]

On 5/5/2021 at 8:27 PM, oikos1 said:

Why all the fuss over dropping a ball.  Golfers have gone from dropping over the shoulder without looking, to dropping from shoulder height to now dropping at knee height.  Only a matter of time before the ball is placed.

 

I came back to this thread a few weeks later and was amazed to see the back and forth.  I still take the stance of make the rule whatever, at the pro level or high level how often does this happen where it would impact much of anything? 

At the higher handicap level where it happens more often, I doubt this would impact scoring what so ever.  I've been paired up with plenty of guys who roll the ball, take liberal drops and still shoot well over 90.  

[jordan2240]

11 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

I came back to this thread a few weeks later and was amazed to see the back and forth.  I still take the stance of make the rule whatever, at the pro level or high level how often does this happen where it would impact much of anything? 

At the higher handicap level where it happens more often, I doubt this would impact scoring what so ever.  I've been paired up with plenty of guys who roll the ball, take liberal drops and still shoot well over 90.  

My guess is that no pro would win a  tournament because they were able to 'place' rather than drop the ball.  Perhaps if they were able to do it on every hole (and others weren't), it would make a difference.

 

But as for grounding, I'm really enjoying the PGA with it's 'sandy areas'.  To me, that's indicative of what it would be like to allow grounding in the sand in all instances, and I don't see where anyone is gaining an advantage in doing it.  And DJ would likely have another major if the grounding rule had been different.

[SNIPERBBB]

On 5/21/2021 at 7:51 PM, MountainKing said:

 

I came back to this thread a few weeks later and was amazed to see the back and forth.  I still take the stance of make the rule whatever, at the pro level or high level how often does this happen where it would impact much of anything? 

At the higher handicap level where it happens more often, I doubt this would impact scoring what so ever.  I've been paired up with plenty of guys who roll the ball, take liberal drops and still shoot well over 90.  

At the pro level, or really at any serious competition the effect of being able to place vs drop can be the stroke difference between winning or loosing a event. The RBs are Abbot's Shortstop when it comes to casual golf. They just care about what has their name attached to it which is handicapping and the amateur and professional events that they run.

[davep043]

16 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

The RBs are Abbot's Shortstop

Abbot's Shortstop?  I've never heard that one before, can you help me learn a new term?

[nsxguy]

33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Abbot's Shortstop?  I've never heard that one before, can you help me learn a new term?

 

It's actually Abbott and Costello's "Who on First ?" routine.

 

The shortstop was "I don't give a darn".

 

 

[nsxguy]

OK, since this thread is about "dropping" and the equity(?) of same, here's what happened just now in the PGA.

 

Mickelson hits his drive in the left rough (1st cut, not the really deep stuff).

 

Spectator picks up the ball and I assume, being immediately scolded, drops it right there.

 

Plenty of people see it and one guy identifies where it was picked up from and points it out.

 

Mickelson, of course, says to the official "I don't get 1 club length ?" (he MAY have been joking).

 

So now, instead of whatever random lie he had before the spectator picked up the ball, he gets to not only PLACE the ball, of course picking a spot where he has full access to the back of the ball, he also gets to clean it.

 

Where's the "equity" in that ?

[Newby]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

OK, since this thread is about "dropping" and the equity(?) of same, here's what happened just now in the PGA.

 

Mickelson hits his drive in the left rough (1st cut, not the really deep stuff).

 

Spectator picks up the ball and I assume, being immediately scolded, drops it right there.

 

Plenty of people see it and one guy identifies where it was picked up from and points it out.

 

Mickelson, of course, says to the official "I don't get 1 club length ?" (he MAY have been joking).

 

So now, instead of whatever random lie he had before the spectator picked up the ball, he gets to not only PLACE the ball, of course picking a spot where he has full access to the back of the ball, he also gets to clean it.

 

Where's the "equity" in that ?

Given that 'equity' in golf means treating like situations alike, then any other player faced with a similar situation will able to do the same.

 

But are you suggesting there is something wrong with the ruling? How would you have ruled?

Edited May 23, 2021 by Newby

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

Given that 'equity' in golf means treating like situations alike, then any other player faced with a similar situation will able to do the same.

 

But are you suggesting there is something wrong with the ruling? How would you have ruled?

 

OK, ya got me. Equity's the wrong word.

 

It should be "fairness". Enjoy the warm fuzzies.

 

And no, I don't think the ruling was wrong. Did I suggest that ? I'll try to be more careful next time.

 

"So now, instead of whatever random lie he had before the spectator picked up the ball, he gets to not only PLACE the ball, of course picking a spot where he has full access to the back of the ball, he also gets to clean it."

 

Now, that mistake of mine admitted, we can move on. I should have thought my meaning would have been pretty clear. Guess not though.

 

3) He gets to clean a ball that may have had some dirt, grass or other issues.

 

and

 

a) He gets to PLACE the ball. I believe earlier in the thread dropping was talked about to preserve "some randomness in the lie" (or some such).

 

So here, since obviously nobody marked the exact spot the ball was picked up from, one of the marshals/observers/whatever says to the official "It was about here" so of course Phil places it with full access to the back of the ball. Zero randomness.

 

IMO, it is FAR MORE LIKELY the intruder that picked up the ball, in doing so, might have removed some foreign substance to the ball than adding a foreign substance to the ball's surface so cleaning it ? I don't think so.

 

And placing it ? Give me a break.

 

And with all the yahoos back at the tournaments, and I agree this may be something of a stretch (but these days ?) don't think for one second that if a Phil-fanatic knew enough about the Rules he/she might not position him/herself so he/she could do exactly (what happened) to help Phil out at just the right moment.

[Sawgrass]

NSX, consider the propriety of this:

 

A ball put back in play due to gaining relief should end up in a random lie.

 

A ball moved by an outside influence should end up in its original lie.  (The best hope of achieving this is to place the ball, not drop it.  Sometimes one will have seen the original lie, sometimes it will be a wild guess, but the principle of placing is our best hope.)

 

It makes perfect sense.