Drop and Grounding - Two rules I'd like to see changed - tell me why not.

[jordan2240]

Drop - change it to 'place'.  Eliminates the need for multiple drops, or creative drops, or controversial drops.  Once you remove your hand from the ball, it's in play and cannot be touched.  You've usually already been penalized, so what does having to drop rather than place the ball add to the game?

 

Grounding - allow grounding under any condition.  No more video reviews for potential touching of sand, no controversies over whether a club could or could not be grounded.  

 

Thoughts?

[PoolPond]

I'd have no problem changing either of them.  With the place though, no doubt scores will come down some. The difference between being able to place the ball and dropping it, even from the knees, is significant to the lie.  The no grounding the club to "test the surface" rule seems absurd. The second one won't make much of a difference to scores, the first one will. 

[Mr. Bean]

Drop - the idea is to have the element of randomness, just like a ball has when it lands after a stroke. Besides, you are not necessarily been penalized, there are a lot of situations where you get a free drop.

 

Grounding - this has been considerably eased but with regards to a bunker it still remains the same and for a very good reason: preventing smoothing sand behind the ball to make the subsequent stroke easier.

 

The way I see it those two things are as they should be, in principle. I would not change that principle.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Mr. Bean
Typos

[PoolPond]

In principle, the sand should be as we find it.  They were designed as something to avoid and not be a perfect area to hit out of.  Myself, and many others, would rather be in a greenside bunker any day of the week vs some of the green side rough we find.  Sand shot is significantly easier.  It's kind of ironic that we must smooth the sand every morning and ensure the sand is smooth after every shot out of it but then have a rule to stop you from smoothing the sand. 

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, PoolPond said:

In principle, the sand should be as we find it.  They were designed as something to avoid and not be a perfect area to hit out of.  Myself, and many others, would rather be in a greenside bunker any day of the week vs some of the green side rough we find.  Sand shot is significantly easier.

 

That is for you but there are quite a few golfers apart from you. My wife can fairly easily extract her ball out of the rough but she can also take four strokes from a greenside bunker.

 

If you are such a good player from the bunker you probably are good enough to miss the green into the bunker instead of that devious rough, right..? 😎

[2bGood]

Grounding the club is now allowed in penalty areas, just not bunkers. Allowing it in the bunker would allow you to significantly change the lie of the ball. Seem like a good rule to keep in place.

 

Drop v place I am not so sure about. I guess you could make it place on penalty situations - as you have already been 'penalised'. But for free relief drop seems the most fair way to handle it. Seems to work fine now though.

Edited May 4, 2021 by 2bGood

[PoolPond]

 

15 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is for you but there are quite a few golfers apart from you. My wife can fairly easily extract her ball out of the rough but she can also take four strokes from a greenside bunker.

 

If you are such a good player from the bunker you probably are good enough to miss the green into the bunker instead of that devious rough, right..? 😎

Yipes, I'd keep her out of the bunkers then. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

Drop - change it to 'place'.  Eliminates the need for multiple drops, or creative drops, or controversial drops.  Once you remove your hand from the ball, it's in play and cannot be touched.  You've usually already been penalized, so what does having to drop rather than place the ball add to the game?

 

Grounding - allow grounding under any condition.  No more video reviews for potential touching of sand, no controversies over whether a club could or could not be grounded.  

 

Thoughts?

Do as you wish in your games, but please leave the Rules alone.

[Socrates]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Do as you wish in your games, but please leave the Rules alone.

I understand the Ruling Bodies wanting some randomness in how the ball comes to rest via a drop.  Where I have a problem is that virtually every drop a high level player makes, now involves multiple drops and then a very careful placement - with a Rules Official being called in to stand there and hold their hand while they do it.  All the efforts to speed up the game are wasted while this goes on.  Just pick up the ball and place in the first place and get on with it.  It would speed the game up tremendously.

[MPAndreassi]

If you’re still able to draw a divot lie in the fairway, and have to play it, you should have to drop it and not place it. The drop, drop, place rule isn’t a very common occurrence unless you’re on the slope of a hazard. I would venture to say that 99%+ come to rest within the correct spot on their own. 

[jordan2240]

33 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Do as you wish in your games, but please leave the Rules alone.

Rules change from time-to-time, so I don't think there is any harm in discussing them.  To me, these changes would both simplify and quicken the game, eliminate some of the controversy that occurs, and give no significant advantage to any player.

[2bGood]

26 minutes ago, MPAndreassi said:

If you’re still able to draw a divot lie in the fairway, and have to play it, you should have to drop it and not place it. The drop, drop, place rule isn’t a very common occurrence unless you’re on the slope of a hazard. I would venture to say that 99%+ come to rest within the correct spot on their own. 

I am not sure 99%+ is accurate, but it is pretty close. Likely a bit lower as often golfers (myself included) are trying to get the ball to land outside the drop zone in order to achieve a placement. 

 

Having said that - drop, drop place takes about 15 seconds longer than just placing and just placing would not appreciably speed things up. On tour they would still call over a rules official the same amount to check on the placement - the dropping itself take no time.

 

If the goal of doing this is to speed up play, there is not much to be gained. How many drops pre round are there? (not many - zero many days for me). Then how many of those require multiple drops - ?10%?. For me personally I might be in a multiple drop situation once every 20 rounds, so the extra 15 seconds has no impact on my life as it adds up to about 1m30seconds per year for me. Assume the same for the guys I play with and it adds a whopping 6min over 120 rounds a  year. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by 2bGood

[Abh159]

7 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Rules change from time-to-time, so I don't think there is any harm in discussing them.  To me, these changes would both simplify and quicken the game, eliminate some of the controversy that occurs, and give no significant advantage to any player.

 

Changing the drop rule would give someone an advantage. Let's say you hit your tee shot 30 yards left and it end up on the cart path...

 

You now get to place the ball (without penalty) on an extra fluffy lie in the rough and you're left with what is essentially a teed up ball instead of one that is sitting down in the rough. You're saying that isn't an advantage?

[Sawgrass]

4 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Rules change from time-to-time, so I don't think there is any harm in discussing them.  To me, these changes would both simplify and quicken the game, eliminate some of the controversy that occurs, and give no significant advantage to any player.

There would be significant advantages gained. 
 

Two players near each other in very thick rough. One is standing on a sprinkler head, so he lifts his ball from the depths of the rough, and gingerly places it in the relief area, befitting from almost teeing it up instead of the low lie he’d get by dropping.

 

Another has a burried lie n a bunker, and with your idea decides to drop his club behind his ball, twice, and clear the sand so he has an unobstructed shot at the back of the ball. 
 

Bad ideas. 

[limegreengent]

Definitely a No to both suggestions.

The lie where your ball comes to rest is absolutely random..- sometimes it's good- sometimes bad.

That's the beauty and challenge of our game - a sport played outside in all sorts of  imperfect conditions.

Dropping is giving you some sort of relief from a random result already - keep the status quo.

 

Don't present pace of play as a reason or of any significance when everyone knows the real reasons for slow play which need to be solved by the authorities.

Grounding the club in a Bunker will result in improving your lie and Will be abused.

Another definite No.!

The last few years have already shown a " Mammy Pammy" attitude by the authorities relaxing many rules.

Please do not give them any more rope.

 

Jordan 

From memory all your recent threads re rule changes appear to be with making the game easier

Have you no suggestions which would improve the game and make it more challenging?

Edited May 4, 2021 by limegreengent

[MPAndreassi]

34 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am not sure 99%+ is accurate, but it is pretty close. Likely a bit lower as often golfers (myself included) are trying to get the ball to land outside the drop zone in order to achieve a placement. 

 

Having said that - drop, drop place takes about 15 seconds longer than just placing and just placing would not appreciably speed things up. On tour they would still call over a rules official the same amount to check on the placement - the dropping itself take no time.

 

If the goal of doing this is to speed up play, there is not much to be gained. How many drops pre round are there? (not many - zero many days for me). Then how many of those require multiple drops - ?10%?. For me personally I might be in a multiple drop situation once every 20 rounds, so the extra 15 seconds has no impact on my life as it adds up to about 1m30seconds per year for me. Assume the same for the guys I play with and it adds a whopping 6min over 120 rounds a  year. 

 

 

 

I think that the dropping height rule change eliminated a lot of the double drop situations. I can't remember the last time I have had to drop more than once. That said, I don't often drop at all so it may be more of a skewed perspective. But I agree that the extra time it takes is extremely small compared to the benefit it would give the player getting a good lie in the rough. 

[nsxguy]

38 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Changing the drop rule would give someone an advantage. Let's say you hit your tee shot 30 yards left and it end up on the cart path...

 

You now get to place the ball (without penalty) on an extra fluffy lie in the rough and you're left with what is essentially a teed up ball instead of one that is sitting down in the rough. You're saying that isn't an advantage?

 

THIS !!! 👍

[MountainKing]

3 hours ago, PoolPond said:

I'd have no problem changing either of them.  With the place though, no doubt scores will come down some. The difference between being able to place the ball and dropping it, even from the knees, is significant to the lie.  The no grounding the club to "test the surface" rule seems absurd. The second one won't make much of a difference to scores, the first one will. 

 

How many times are golfers actually dropping that it would have a huge impact on scoring? If you're a better golfer this probably wouldn't come in play even once a round.  If you're a higher handicap there's probably little difference in the outcome of the next shot between a place vs a drop.  

[MelloYello]

The more I've played, the more I've become amenable to the idea of preferred lies as a default option for regular club players. Not only does it help them in a fair and uniform way but it also reduces the demands on course setup and deals with the realities that country club courses aren't perfect. 

 

Rather than changing drops, I'd just encourage casual players to embrace playing preferred lies. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by MelloYello

[bladehunter]

The why  not is easy. Placing it allows you to tee up the lie.  So if you hit a drive into a lake.  Have to drop out of the lake , dropping vs placing can mean the difference between layup and 3 wood on the green.  That’s a potential 2 shot swing for a strong player.   That’s huge.  
 

and grounding.   Nope. It’s just going to let guys dig trenches behind the ball either before swings or during the swing.  Guys will practice this scoop backswing so they Can get a clear shot at the back of the ball. You don’t realize how much control a good player has of the ball from the sand IF he can hit close to the ball and spin it.  The average player only plays the chunk and run.  So he thinks that it doesn’t make any difference. It’s makes a huge difference 

Edited May 4, 2021 by bladehunter

[Hawkeye77]

Again, solutions in search of problems.

 

As most have noted, no reason to allow grounding in a bunker.

 

Dropping? Agree with the "random" aspect and no point letting folks get manufactured lies if it can be avoided.  Placing wouldn't speed up anything in any significant way - these drops don't happen all that often for most and there is little, if any, REAL controversy associated with either issue.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

20 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

The more I've played, the more I've become amenable to the idea of preferred lies as a default option for regular club players. Not only does it help them in a fair and uniform way but it also reduces the demands on course setup and deals with the realities that country club courses aren't perfect. 

 

Rather than changing drops, I'd just encourage casual players to embrace playing preferred lies. 

Most of the guys I play with do it as a matter of course, official option or not, lol. 
 

Golf is played on the ground, it isn’t perfect and at the very core of the game is expected to be imperfect. 
 

“Regular” players should resist the idea, learn how to hit a golf ball — but most don’t anyway so no reason to “legalize” it, IMO. 

[Halebopp]

One thing about dropping is that when it's done from knee height, it's easy for other players and officials to see what you're doing as opposed to people simply hovering their hand very close to the ground.

 

Also, I'm not at all convinced placing instead of dropping would speed up play. Players would simply start searching for the perfect spot within the Relief Area. "No, the ball doesn't stay on top of this blade of grass, no, not even on this one, how about the one on the other side of the Relief Area?". We all know Preferred Lies is horrible for Pace of Play and that's only in use on closely-mown areas, which should have pretty even conditions outside of the poor patches. Roughs are the practical opposite of that.

[TerpFangolfer]

When they changed the drop to knee height, if I recall, the initial proposal (or one proposal) was to drop from any height? Basically just short of a placement - so people would be letting go of the ball from 1" (or even less) above the grass.

Assume this was nixed due to the potential advantage (removing 99% of the randomness), so I can't see going to actual placing, esp as others have pointed out, when lucky enough to get free relief.

[jordan2240]

5 hours ago, Abh159 said:

 

Changing the drop rule would give someone an advantage. Let's say you hit your tee shot 30 yards left and it end up on the cart path...

 

You now get to place the ball (without penalty) on an extra fluffy lie in the rough and you're left with what is essentially a teed up ball instead of one that is sitting down in the rough. You're saying that isn't an advantage?

Not if all players could do the same.  You could just as easily drop and have the ball bury, so why should hitting it on the cart path give you a disadvantage?  To me, the number of times you would potentially gain a small advantage is negated by the benefits of changing 'drop' to 'place'. 

[jordan2240]

4 hours ago, limegreengent said:

Jordan 

From memory all your recent threads re rule changes appear to be with making the game easier

Have you no suggestions which would improve the game and make it more challenging?

Not interested in making the game simpler from a playing standpoint, but less complex from a rules standpoint.  If that is deemed to make the game 'simpler', so be it, as it applies to all players, so no one gains a regular advantage.

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, MelloYello said:

The more I've played, the more I've become amenable to the idea of preferred lies as a default option for regular club players. Not only does it help them in a fair and uniform way but it also reduces the demands on course setup and deals with the realities that country club courses aren't perfect. 

 

Rather than changing drops, I'd just encourage casual players to embrace playing preferred lies. 

Interesting that the USGA discourages preferred lies in part as it creates an unfair advantage to less skilled players. They also claim(not sure I fully buy this one) that it causes more damage to the course as players are targeting specific area to hit off of. 

[jordan2240]

3 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Rather than changing drops, I'd just encourage casual players to embrace playing preferred lies. 

I find it humorous that many of the guys I play with already move the ball prior to every shot, even if the lie is good.  Sometime, they actually move it into a worse lie. Psychological for them I guess.   Not a horrible idea, especially for the weekend hacker, though I prefer hitting it from where it lies so I can use that as an excuse for a bad shot.

[2bGood]

9 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Not if all players could do the same.  You could just as easily drop and have the ball bury, so why should hitting it on the cart path give you a disadvantage?  To me, the number of times you would potentially gain a small advantage is negated by the benefits of changing 'drop' to 'place'. 

Not sure the rough you play out of, but placing in the rough at the courses I play is generally a huge advantage over playing a ball the naturally come to rest. 
 

The point being someone who gets free relief (from stance on a path etc) and places is the rough is at a clear advantage over someone who hit in the same area and the ball comes to rest naturally(or someone who has to drop). 

[Abh159]

13 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Not if all players could do the same.  You could just as easily drop and have the ball bury, so why should hitting it on the cart path give you a disadvantage?  To me, the number of times you would potentially gain a small advantage is negated by the benefits of changing 'drop' to 'place'. 

 

There are so many things wrong with this I'm starting to wonder if you're just f****** with us.... 

 

First, what benefits are you talking about? Saving 10-15 seconds once every few rounds? I would hardly call that a groundbreaking benefit.

 

Second, how do you not see that allowing a player to place a ball instead of being required to drop it is a huge advantage?

 

Example - Reachable Par 5

 

• Player A bombs one down the left side of the fairway, but gets a bad bounce and a so so lie in the rough. He can't comfortably get a fairway wood on the ball forcing him to lay up.
• Player B hooks one 40 yards left and onto the cart path, but gets to "place" his ball with a perfect lie in the rough where he can smash a 3 wood and go for the green. 

 

You see no issue with the above scenario??? Come on dude....

Edited May 4, 2021 by Abh159