Early Extension, how to rid myself of it?

[glk]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

 

I was not able to make it out yesterday but I did practice this bow movement in my living room.  Let's just say again, not something I do in my current swing, lol.  What is really cool though, if I turn back correct and bow to 4:30 it effectively create the "zipper away" move.  That was not my intention, my intention was just to bow, but I figured if that was the effect, I was probably doing it right.  

 

Now, I am going to make an assumption here.  On the way down at P6, I assume that I can extend and turn as hard as I can, otherwise I can't figure out how the club will not hit 2 feet behind the ball.  And I do understand that while I am doing this in slow motion I am exaggerating it quite a bit and the bow will not be nearly as pronounced during an actual swing, but it is to facilitate the side bend which will have me closer to the ground than I was before.  

 

I keep trying to think of an action that I have performed in my life that resembles this.  Nope, nothing.  It really is crazy how different this is.  I can say that right now I have no trust in it either, so it will be a challenge to implement, but hopefully it will be for the better in the end. 

Allow yourself to goat hump at the top of the backswing - to the goat to your right - then the opposite reaction is to regain flexion (bow).

 

Just remember that your brain understanding goat humping and straightening the right arm early to reach the ball at impact - just improving your knee/hip movement won't undo that so it is natural to expect to hit it fat, etc - you never could right side bend and get the shoulder lower so that you can keep your right arm bent prior to impact - you also may pull steep (I don't recall) which can also lead to early straight right arm.    In any case, changes often come in two - to have an improved pivot you also need to have a shallowing move and learn to not straighten that arm early.      And this is why really slow swings or else your brain will keep on trying to do the same old same old.

 

 

[Fireballer]

I didn't read all replies, but I'm sure people mentioned things unrelated to hips.  I quieted my hips by over-cooking a flexed lead wrist.  To deliver the club to the ball, I can feel that I almost need to do a "push away" move with my pelvis as opposed to a thrust towards target line I used to do.

[Shushwap]

I am the king of ee.... if u figure it out.. let me know what works 

I have been through 4 swing coaches and no one can seem to get me to stop... 

The latest drill is the 7 iron to 100 yards.. slow it all down 

I am going to start working with my Orange whip and see if it will help with tempo and my ee

 

[trilerian]

8 hours ago, Shushwap said:

I am the king of ee.... if u figure it out.. let me know what works 

I have been through 4 swing coaches and no one can seem to get me to stop... 

The latest drill is the 7 iron to 100 yards.. slow it all down 

I am going to start working with my Orange whip and see if it will help with tempo and my ee

 

 

I don't recommend using the orange whip or any heavy club to try to rid yourself of EE.  While I don't know why you EE, I do know that for me it is where my brain thinks I get some power.  Stand up and cast, lol.  Anyway, the heavier weight of the orange whip would naturally set off the need for more power in my mind.  I think this is one of the reasons why instructors tell us to hit a club much shorter than we would normally hit it.  It helps to eliminate some of the things we do in the pursuit of leverage.  Believe it or not, even in a swing that has EE and a cast, we use leverage.  Our bodies are wonderful machines and can sense how to use leverage to make something move.  We just are not always the most efficient at it without proper training.  Back to the slower swing, you don't need as much leverage to hit the ball 100 yds with your 7i, so this can help to break some of your bodies natural tendencies while you start to work in changes.  I think the orange whip will work against you in this case.  

 

I say don't give up, practice the move all the time.  Seriously, when I get up to use the restroom at work, I make a few practice swings in front of the mirror.  At home I have my bag close to me so I can pickup my 9i and make very slow practice swings.  I go to the range and hit a large bucket with my 9i only trying to hit it 100 yds 4-5 times a week.  

 

There are a lot of videos and good advice in this thread, but the question I have for you; have any of the instructors you have seen diagnosed your root cause?  If not, try to book an online lesson with Monte or another competent instructor.  They are not all created equal, just sayin...  Monte really is a savant for finding root cause issues, whether or not you can put in the work to fix it is on you.  

 

One day, it may be 5 years from now, but one day, I will change the title of this thread to "I finally conquered my EE".  I'm pretty sure I am just stubborn enough to get it, eventually.  

[Shushwap]

4 hours ago, trilerian said:

 

I don't recommend using the orange whip or any heavy club to try to rid yourself of EE.  While I don't know why you EE, I do know that for me it is where my brain thinks I get some power.  Stand up and cast, lol.  Anyway, the heavier weight of the orange whip would naturally set off the need for more power in my mind.  I think this is one of the reasons why instructors tell us to hit a club much shorter than we would normally hit it.  It helps to eliminate some of the things we do in the pursuit of leverage.  Believe it or not, even in a swing that has EE and a cast, we use leverage.  Our bodies are wonderful machines and can sense how to use leverage to make something move.  We just are not always the most efficient at it without proper training.  Back to the slower swing, you don't need as much leverage to hit the ball 100 yds with your 7i, so this can help to break some of your bodies natural tendencies while you start to work in changes.  I think the orange whip will work against you in this case.  

 

I say don't give up, practice the move all the time.  Seriously, when I get up to use the restroom at work, I make a few practice swings in front of the mirror.  At home I have my bag close to me so I can pickup my 9i and make very slow practice swings.  I go to the range and hit a large bucket with my 9i only trying to hit it 100 yds 4-5 times a week.  

 

There are a lot of videos and good advice in this thread, but the question I have for you; have any of the instructors you have seen diagnosed your root cause?  If not, try to book an online lesson with Monte or another competent instructor.  They are not all created equal, just sayin...  Monte really is a savant for finding root cause issues, whether or not you can put in the work to fix it is on you.  

 

One day, it may be 5 years from now, but one day, I will change the title of this thread to "I finally conquered my EE".  I'm pretty sure I am just stubborn enough to get it, eventually.  

They say my problem is lack of rotation.. I rotate very little and that causes my ee.. one other thing they think is causing it is my tempo is very quick 

My latest coach advised me to use 2 clubs to practice swinging with.. very slow obviously.. his thoughts are it should slow my tempo.. 

This is where I think the Orange whip could help me.. as u need to have a decent tempo to use it..i find when I use the whip.. I have to pause for a millisecond at the top and focus on rotating and not get all armsy if thats even a word lol 

I am going to pull out the impact bag as well and start using that 

I used my impact bag a fair bit in the early part of the year.. latest coach said he has seen a little improvement in rotation since last year 

[glk]

7 minutes ago, Shushwap said:

They say my problem is lack of rotation.. I rotate very little and that causes my ee.. one other thing they think is causing it is my tempo is very quick 

My latest coach advised me to use 2 clubs to practice swinging with.. very slow obviously.. his thoughts are it should slow my tempo.. 

This is where I think the Orange whip could help me.. as u need to have a decent tempo to use it..i find when I use the whip.. I have to pause for a millisecond at the top and focus on rotating and not get all armsy if thats even a word lol 

I am going to pull out the impact bag as well and start using that 

I used my impact bag a fair bit in the early part of the year.. latest coach said he has seen a little improvement in rotation since last year 

Sorry to tell you this but your coach has no clue.  There is a cause for your lack of rotation and ee - tempo is not it.    Could be you move your knees/hips poorly in the backswing, could be a steep shaft in downswing, and on and on.  Monte has an entire video on main causes for ee.

Edited June 22, 2021 by glk

[trilerian]

20 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

It's an issue for many as the stand up moves feels like the easiest way to find speed but that process screws you out of the ground, and it's screwing down into the ground is what you want.  Maybe hit balls on a very slight downgrade, and it will keep the trail leg-hip area hinge closed (down).    I like to think of both hips being small door hinges, and the trail hinge closes (flexion) in transition and stays that way into the strike instead of the trail hinge opening in transition which is the goat move.

 

I was rummaging around an old thread and found this which I saved, and it captures the essence.

 

 

Thanks for the video.  I like his final comment, "it's not that hard" lol.  

[chigolfer1]

3 hours ago, Shushwap said:

They say my problem is lack of rotation.. I rotate very little and that causes my ee.. one other thing they think is causing it is my tempo is very quick 

My latest coach advised me to use 2 clubs to practice swinging with.. very slow obviously.. his thoughts are it should slow my tempo.. 

This is where I think the Orange whip could help me.. as u need to have a decent tempo to use it..i find when I use the whip.. I have to pause for a millisecond at the top and focus on rotating and not get all armsy if thats even a word lol 

I am going to pull out the impact bag as well and start using that 

I used my impact bag a fair bit in the early part of the year.. latest coach said he has seen a little improvement in rotation since last year 

 

I'm also wondering/guessing if you have a misconception of what rotation is and how the hips are actually supposed to move?  This may be an eye opener:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by chigolfer1

[chigolfer1]

Great description:

 

"I like to think of both hips being small door hinges, and the trail hinge closes (flexion) in transition and stays that way into the strike instead of the trail hinge opening in transition which is the goat move."

[trilerian]

Had a great range session last night then walked 9 for practice.  Not a single duffed or topped shot on the course, plenty of other crap, but no tops.  There are a couple of interesting things that I am starting to notice.  When I don't get the hip turn correct, I feel the massive slide I do to get back to my lead side.  And since my release is changing that leads to a pretty big push slice.  Second thing I noticed was on my last shot of the night.  I was 115 yds to a front flag out of the rough.  My ball was pretty buried.  Without thinking I pulled my 9i because that is pretty close to the distance I have been trying to hit it on the range while practicing.  I put a pretty good swing on it, and it came up just short, no biggie.  But I felt like I sat down the entire swing, that might be the first swing I have ever made that I didn't EE.  I wish I would have had a camera to confirm that.  Also, I'm able to hit a hybrid again!  Without that stall flip going on as much (I'm sure it's still there, but not as bad), I can grip my hybrid like any other club and hit it straight-ish.  

 

Still the most difficult thing is to get the weight into my trail leg then rotate the trail hip back.  I can "stack and tilt" and rotate back without issue, but weight shifting first is still hard.  It just feels uncoordinated, and I tend to get over the trail leg instead of in to it.  All in all though, I do think I am making progress, and I am starting to trust the changes enough to use them on the course.  

[glk]

26 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Had a great range session last night then walked 9 for practice.  Not a single duffed or topped shot on the course, plenty of other crap, but no tops.  There are a couple of interesting things that I am starting to notice.  When I don't get the hip turn correct, I feel the massive slide I do to get back to my lead side.  And since my release is changing that leads to a pretty big push slice.  Second thing I noticed was on my last shot of the night.  I was 115 yds to a front flag out of the rough.  My ball was pretty buried.  Without thinking I pulled my 9i because that is pretty close to the distance I have been trying to hit it on the range while practicing.  I put a pretty good swing on it, and it came up just short, no biggie.  But I felt like I sat down the entire swing, that might be the first swing I have ever made that I didn't EE.  I wish I would have had a camera to confirm that.  Also, I'm able to hit a hybrid again!  Without that stall flip going on as much (I'm sure it's still there, but not as bad), I can grip my hybrid like any other club and hit it straight-ish.  

 

Still the most difficult thing is to get the weight into my trail leg then rotate the trail hip back.  I can "stack and tilt" and rotate back without issue, but weight shifting first is still hard.  It just feels uncoordinated, and I tend to get over the trail leg instead of in to it.  All in all though, I do think I am making progress, and I am starting to trust the changes enough to use them on the course.  

My experience in making changes of this nature is that there is this period of struggle where you do it sometimes but then sometimes not or you come close to doing it - in any case it just doesn't click.     then one day a light goes off and the brain says, oh, so that's what you want me to do and all of a sudden it's easy.    Kinda of like the backwards bicycle video - he couldn't ride that bike with reversed handlebars until one day he could - the key is to not given up during the period where the brain is working on the new engram.

Edited June 23, 2021 by glk

[GooseHook]

I've only played one full round since my last lesson, but it was so promising. It was my first round with no topped drivers (I actually drove it great) and my irons finally started going their full distance again. Still a ton of work to do but the "slice" feel with my shoulders is now a part of my pre-shot routine. 

 

The longer term goal for me is to continue to get my shoulder turn more vertical so I have less work to do on the downswing. 

 

 

[Shushwap]

On 6/22/2021 at 1:39 PM, chigolfer1 said:

 

I'm also wondering/guessing if you have a misconception of what rotation is and how the hips are actually supposed to move?  This may be an eye opener:

 

 

 

 

 

I have watched this video a few times.. one of the drills my coach has me working at the gym is left pocket back..

I do it in front of the mirror to make sure i am rotating properly..

Another one is rear against the wall and make a slow rotation.. make sure I keep contact with the wall.. that was a eye opener for me as I had trouble with it at first as I couldn't keep contact with the wall 

 

[trilerian]

Here is a swing that I think I managed to get my trail hip back.  I still slide a lot on the downswing.  The slide turns into the EE here.  

 

 

[chigolfer1]

2 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Here is a swing that I think I managed to get my trail hip back.  I still slide a lot on the downswing.  The slide turns into the EE here.  

 

 

 

Maybe Monte can opine on whether this is excessive but this is definitely the right idea.  Back in the day, people would be saying you're reverse pivoting or, omg, stack and tilt but you're not I don't think.  I don't even think you're sliding.   Sort of hard to see the EE (or not) with no DTL though.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

reverse pivot? looks like trail heel has little to no weight in backswing

[trilerian]

6 minutes ago, FairwaysToHeaven said:

reverse pivot? looks like trail heel has little to no weight in backswing

 

Has weight to start the backswing.  Weight starts shifting to the lead side pretty quickly.  This is my intent, I may not be getting enough into the trail to start, but it is a fine line.  Too much and I go right back to my old hip move, too little and yes, my trail foot can slide around before impact.  

[Krt22]

You have over-done it a hair IMHO (which is not a bad thing). Too much hip action too early. There shouldn't be much hip action to P2, mostly a slight bump to the right. From P2 to P4 is where you start to recenter and get right hip moving back and towards the target. Your hips are almost at P4 while hands are still at P2. You basically run out of hip action  while waiting for the arms to catch up, so dynamically it's a hard position to transition from

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/COxvCRHDqeP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited June 24, 2021 by Krt22

[trilerian]

15 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

You have over-done it a hair IMHO (which is not a bad thing). Too much hip action too early. There shouldn't be much hip action to P2, mostly a slight bump to the right. From P2 to P4 is where you start to recenter and get right hip moving back and towards the target. Your hips are almost at P4 while hands are still at P2. You basically run out of hip action  while waiting for the arms to catch up, so dynamically it's a hard position to transition from

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/COxvCRHDqeP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Can't anything just be easy???

 

EDIT:  Looking at that link, I go up and forward, not down and  forward.  That's depressing.  

Edited June 24, 2021 by trilerian

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, trilerian said:

 

Can't anything just be easy???

Nope! I have struggled with the same exact issue. Segmented/slow motion drills help me in this area where you need to blend two (new) movements

Edited June 24, 2021 by Krt22

[glk]

42 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

Can't anything just be easy???

 

EDIT:  Looking at that link, I go up and forward, not down and  forward.  That's depressing.  

change is hard so don't be hard on yourself.     plus side the knee and hip action looks much better.      i find it typical to overdo things from a lesson - heck i over did setup and went from too upright to too bent so compared to the change you are trying to make setup is suppose to be easy.      

 

here is one from dr. kwon that doesn't involve a club - just the movement to feel you are going right and rotating then falling to the left - like we talked about a few posts ago - shift into a chair, alignment stick, whatever that you place a couple of fingers to the right of your hip - and ship the entire body not just your hips - slow and without a club then add the club   even overdoing it is not a bad thing at this point!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5XDRQxluQl/

[trilerian]

28 minutes ago, glk said:

change is hard so don't be hard on yourself.     plus side the knee and hip action looks much better.      i find it typical to overdo things from a lesson - heck i over did setup and went from too upright to too bent so compared to the change you are trying to make setup is suppose to be easy.      

 

here is one from dr. kwon that doesn't involve a club - just the movement to feel you are going right and rotating then falling to the left - like we talked about a few posts ago - shift into a chair, alignment stick, whatever that you place a couple of fingers to the right of your hip - and ship the entire body not just your hips - slow and without a club then add the club   even overdoing it is not a bad thing at this point!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5XDRQxluQl/

 

Now I am confused.  She looks like she is loading into the trail side and once fully rotated, then falling left.  I thought we are supposed to be going left right after the hip bump.  At least that is what it looks like in Monte's Instagram, and also the feeling I took away from my lesson with Monte.  

[chigolfer1]

1 hour ago, trilerian said:

 

Can't anything just be easy???

 

EDIT:  Looking at that link, I go up and forward, not down and  forward.  That's depressing.  

 

Overexaggeration is fine at first!  That's actually exactly what you want.   Once it becomes part of a normal swing DNA it won't feel like an exaggeration and will probably be somewhere between this and your old swing.

[chigolfer1]

2 hours ago, FairwaysToHeaven said:

reverse pivot? looks like trail heel has little to no weight in backswing

 

haha, that didn't take long.   others much more expert than me I think would agree it's definitely not a reverse pivot (although 15 years ago or so everyone would have called it that).

[Mike_C]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

 

Can't anything just be easy???

 

EDIT:  Looking at that link, I go up and forward, not down and  forward.  That's depressing.  

What I see is you posting up on your left side without rotation or using the ground.  Your left hip is not "clearing" as Monte says, Mike Malaska says you are not using straight line forces to open your hips.  I would guess that a DTL view would show your hips parallel to the target line instead of open,  like this:

 

 

[KMeloney]

(delete)

Edited June 24, 2021 by KMeloney
double post!

[KMeloney]

27 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

Now I am confused.  She looks like she is loading into the trail side and once fully rotated, then falling left.  I thought we are supposed to be going left right after the hip bump.  At least that is what it looks like in Monte's Instagram, and also the feeling I took away from my lesson with Monte.  

 

At least from your latest video, I'd say you don't have the "hip bump" part, and no transfer of weight (ever) to your back foot. In Monte's Instagram, he shifts back to start, and then is "falling" into his front side. Looks like you're leaning forward immediately, stacking all of your weight over your left leg, and then trying to pivot around it. There's no "momentum." Your weight all goes there, and then you have to try to rotate that weight around that leg. (Believe me, I struggle with this mightily.)

 

Consider what you're doing in that video vs what you'd do to throw a baseball. That'll show you the difference in your action.

[KMeloney]

(delete)

Edited June 24, 2021 by KMeloney
Triple post! Dang lagging computer!

[glk]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

 

Now I am confused.  She looks like she is loading into the trail side and once fully rotated, then falling left.  I thought we are supposed to be going left right after the hip bump.  At least that is what it looks like in Monte's Instagram, and also the feeling I took away from my lesson with Monte.  

You shift right about an inch and get max pressure on right foot by p3.   The move back to the left foot starts at p3.  As noted you are not getting pressure to the right and lighthening pressure under left foot.

 

momte lines on the clip from krt22 clearly show monte right side moving laterally outside the right line before he rotates away from it.

 

not advocating you do it as much as this guy but it is easy to see how he shifts right and gets up on his left toe earlier, lightening the pressure, the. Falls to his left side in transition

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CNd5-yvLhKt/

 

More examples

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAYGhArFN1O/

 

hogan. Probably the best example

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_SXD4MFBJ7/

 

Tiger doing the shift, rotate, shift, rotate

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_WFsP2FW_q/

Edited June 24, 2021 by glk

[trilerian]

1 hour ago, Mike_C said:

What I see is you posting up on your left side without rotation or using the ground.  Your left hip is not "clearing" as Monte says, Mike Malaska says you are not using straight line forces to open your hips.  I would guess that a DTL view would show your hips parallel to the target line instead of open,  like this:

 

 

Yes, my hips are square at impact. Working on my hips in the backswing is the start to fixing the issue. Could be the end to, but I doubt it, lol.   Nice video though, but like I said, I have to get the backswing first.