Rocco Mediate's swing

[chipa]

After returning to golf 2 years ago I have looked at many swing techniques and have become intrigued by Rocco Mediate's swing. For one he has back problems like myself and second while he doesn't hit the ball that far he also isn't short and doesn't swing that hard either. I remember his playoff w/TW in 2008 and I remember Tiger wasn't that far ahead of Rocco on his drives and he swung much harder.

 

I have tried Rocco's swing off and on but usually give it up as he has a "one peice" takeaway that I have problems with, one I usually take the club too far inside and it hurts my lower back and I also have problems getting my hands into a powerful position at the top. Nonetheless, after continually trying his swing I have come to the conclusion certain elements are needed to make it work:

 

1. Firm left hand grip held in the fingers in such a way that the hand is pushing away from the elbow at all times

2. arms out in front of body and relaxed upper arms and shoulders

3. weight on the balls of the feet

4. good transfer of weight by pushing the left hand back until the right side is loaded

 

The good thing about Rocco's swing as I can see it is it uses a lot of ground pressure and elastic loading to generate clubhead speed as opposed to turning the shoulders. Also, the firm left hand grip not only is a "feel" and a guide" on the takeaway to help finish the swing by pushing the hand away to the top of the backswing, when held right the issue of the wrist cocking happens automatically, and since the wrist is firm it doesn't break down too easily by a strong right hand action, which is another source of easy power. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by chipa

[Petethreeput]

I believe he has said the closed stance and shoulders permitted him to complete his backswing with the lack of mobility in his back and he preferred this.

On the flip side is Fred Couples who opened his stance and therefore shortened his backswing but permitted him to complete his follow through.

Not sure about the rest of it as most of it is simply good technique.

[chipa]

11 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

I believe he has said the closed stance and shoulders permitted him to complete his backswing with the lack of mobility in his back and he preferred this.

On the flip side is Fred Couples who opened his stance and therefore shortened his backswing but permitted him to complete his follow through.

Not sure about the rest of it as most of it is simply good technique.

 

He does make it simple and I'm trying to make it work, though his hand action has been difficult to do consistently. Rocco works with Jimmy Ballard who says the elbows set the hands and says the elbows must be pointed down at all times, apparently for this to work.

[Talldog]

He's a protege of Jimmy Ballard.

 

Ballard's book "How to Perfect Your Golf Swing" is out of print, but can still be found.

 

It's a pretty good read.

 

https://smile.amazon.com/How-Perfect-Your-Golf-Swing/dp/0671723103/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=jimmy+ballard&qid=1630440972&sr=8-1

[chipa]

2 hours ago, Talldog said:

He's a protege of Jimmy Ballard.

 

Ballard's book "How to Perfect Your Golf Swing" is out of print, but can still be found.

 

It's a pretty good read.

 

https://smile.amazon.com/How-Perfect-Your-Golf-Swing/dp/0671723103/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=jimmy+ballard&qid=1630440972&sr=8-1

 

I have looked a quite a few of his videos the only thing I have problems with is the consistency of my hands setting. I am wondering if Rocco has his left wrist ulnar deviated because the shaft from the side looks to be on a straight line with his forearms. I have a problem leaving the club open then overcompensating and closing it too much which causes a hook. Playing with a firm left wrist like it appears Rocco is doing(or maybe ulnar deviated or both) seems to work at times but not always.

 

However, keeping my weight forward on the balls of my feet and letting my elbows bend has been something I have been doing for quite a while and it certainly helps those with limited flexibility like myself.

[Gsea]

Ballard worked with sutton in his heyday.

 

 

[naval2006]

Rocco has the ultimate Ballard swing, even more than Jim Colbert. If there were more Jimmy Ballards  there would definitely be a lot more good players around.  I love Rocco’s swing and cool. @97speedster is the man to go for on this forum: Jimmy’s student, great player and most generous and passionate about Jimmy Ballard’s swing. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

I think it's a fallacy to say he's not swinging hard, it just looks like he's not swinging hard.  I'm sure he's swinging as hard as he physically can with maintaining rhythm.  His overall swing speed/look is more relatable to the majority of us here vs Rory.  

 

What stands out to me more than anything about him is he looks like your average everyday grandpa and he's rocking Jordan's and $200 Greyson joggers now 😂

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lefty_3Jack

[Moonlightgrm]

On 8/31/2021 at 3:11 PM, chipa said:

After returning to golf 2 years ago I have looked at many swing techniques and have become intrigued by Rocco Mediate's swing. For one he has back problems like myself and second while he doesn't hit the ball that far he also isn't short and doesn't swing that hard either. I remember his playoff w/TW in 2008 and I remember Tiger wasn't that far ahead of Rocco on his drives and he swung much harder.

 

I have tried Rocco's swing off and on but usually give it up as he has a "one peice" takeaway that I have problems with, one I usually take the club too far inside and it hurts my lower back and I also have problems getting my hands into a powerful position at the top. Nonetheless, after continually trying his swing I have come to the conclusion certain elements are needed to make it work:

 

1. Firm left hand grip held in the fingers in such a way that the hand is pushing away from the elbow at all times

2. arms out in front of body and relaxed upper arms and shoulders

3. weight on the balls of the feet

4. good transfer of weight by pushing the left hand back until the right side is loaded

 

The good thing about Rocco's swing as I can see it is it uses a lot of ground pressure and elastic loading to generate clubhead speed as opposed to turning the shoulders. Also, the firm left hand grip not only is a "feel" and a guide" on the takeaway to help finish the swing by pushing the hand away to the top of the backswing, when held right the issue of the wrist cocking happens automatically, and since the wrist is firm it doesn't break down too easily by a strong right hand action, which is another source of easy power. 

 

 

Is #3 true? I heard Rocco speak about the golf swing in a clinic many years ago (before he became a household name) and my memory tells me his weight was centered over his feet with an err towards the heels. I recall him saying you should be able to easily wiggle your toes. 
 

Hey, I’m old and my memory could be failing me. 

[chipa]

3 minutes ago, Moonlightgrm said:

Is #3 true? I heard Rocco speak about the golf swing in a clinic many years ago (before he became a household name) and my memory tells me his weight was centered over his feet with an err towards the heels. I recall him saying you should be able to easily wiggle your toes. 
 

Hey, I’m old and my memory could be failing me. 

 

That's a good point. In his video his says his weight is centered but then goes on to point it moves to the balls of his feet on the downswing. I suppose I have been practicing this move for some time now that my weight is actually toward the front the whole time mostly in order to finish like he does. Thanks. Here's the video I was referring to.

 

 

[Lefty_3Jack]

 

 

Holy s*** that looks very 5 handicappish.... This gives me a ton of confidence, but at the same time makes me feel like a b**** for still being a 5....

 

[Lefty_3Jack]

I take that back, his hips work really efficiently.  At first, it looked like he was standing up and was square at impact. 

[dodger]

He no longer works with Ballard, that ended a few years ago. He is an incredible athlete with unbelievable hand eye coordination. When you watch him hit a golf ball, it is clear he is a touring pro, while he does not seem long, that draw runs out there a long way and he is super consistent with the wedge. Not sure if that swing is one necessarily to copy. However, the movement of his club would produce nice draws every time. It also might make you prone to thin shots out to the right if you early extend a little. Good tour pro who would have won more if he had no back problems. He has given up the grape and weighs about 140 now.

[chipa]

38 minutes ago, dodger said:

He no longer works with Ballard, that ended a few years ago. He is an incredible athlete with unbelievable hand eye coordination. When you watch him hit a golf ball, it is clear he is a touring pro, while he does not seem long, that draw runs out there a long way and he is super consistent with the wedge. Not sure if that swing is one necessarily to copy. However, the movement of his club would produce nice draws every time. It also might make you prone to thin shots out to the right if you early extend a little. Good tour pro who would have won more if he had no back problems. He has given up the grape and weighs about 140 now.

 

Rocco states that he keeps his hands out of his swing and looking at his pre-takeaway move it would seem it is designed to do just that but I notice that in slow motion his left hand starts turning a lot sooner than in his pre-takeaway move and at the top the back of his left wrist is almost flat, which is quite different from the cupped wrist at address. It is clear his hands are active in the swing. Trying to understand how his hands work is what I have been focusing on.

 

Also, regarding extending early I don't believe that is physically/mechanically possible for a pro as their swings are much different than a typical amateur, and while the typical amateur may hit similar positions he is not resisting like the pro or using the same muscles. I can shoot in the 80's at best but play a draw and couldn't early extend if my life depended on it, it is completely impossible with my mechanics as well. I have a friend who early extends typically but if I can get him to get the club in a good position at the start of the swing he plays a draw and picks up about 10-20 mph w/his driver.

[Fairway14]

Mediate is a slider (lateral movement).

[garyt]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:57 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

Is #3 true? I heard Rocco speak about the golf swing in a clinic many years ago (before he became a household name) and my memory tells me his weight was centered over his feet with an err towards the heels. I recall him saying you should be able to easily wiggle your toes. 
 

Hey, I’m old and my memory could be failing me. 

Rocco didn't find Ballard till late in his career. Maybe what you saw was his intention at that time.

[torbill]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:11 PM, chipa said:

After returning to golf 2 years ago I have looked at many swing techniques and have become intrigued by Rocco Mediate's swing. For one he has back problems like myself and second while he doesn't hit the ball that far he also isn't short and doesn't swing that hard either. I remember his playoff w/TW in 2008 and I remember Tiger wasn't that far ahead of Rocco on his drives and he swung much harder.

 

I have tried Rocco's swing off and on but usually give it up as he has a "one peice" takeaway that I have problems with, one I usually take the club too far inside and it hurts my lower back and I also have problems getting my hands into a powerful position at the top. Nonetheless, after continually trying his swing I have come to the conclusion certain elements are needed to make it work:

 

1. Firm left hand grip held in the fingers in such a way that the hand is pushing away from the elbow at all times

2. arms out in front of body and relaxed upper arms and shoulders

3. weight on the balls of the feet

4. good transfer of weight by pushing the left hand back until the right side is loaded

 

The good thing about Rocco's swing as I can see it is it uses a lot of ground pressure and elastic loading to generate clubhead speed as opposed to turning the shoulders. Also, the firm left hand grip not only is a "feel" and a guide" on the takeaway to help finish the swing by pushing the hand away to the top of the backswing, when held right the issue of the wrist cocking happens automatically, and since the wrist is firm it doesn't break down too easily by a strong right hand action, which is another source of easy power. 

 

 

Ballard doesn’t teach #1.  Ballard teaches putting the grip high up, in the meat of the palm, not down in the fingers.

[rooski]

9 hours ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

 

 

Holy s*** that looks very 5 handicappish.... This gives me a ton of confidence, but at the same time makes me feel like a b**** for still being a 5....

 

 

 

Man if you blurred the face and asked me what this dude playing bethpage in cargo shorts shot that day, I'd say 98. He probably shot 66 lol

 

Really goes to show that assuming your fundamentals are solid I think "swing your swing" is some of the best advice

[trapsmv15]

If you have the Peac**k app (nbc) and search golf channel academy, roccos episodes are on there. Fairly recent as he had moved back to Rick Smith by that time. Can also find Rick talking about Rocco in the middle of his episode on Chris Como’s show Swing expedition.

 

(Though I’ve bounced around to trying Mdlt and other methods for my back, my swing was built around Rocco’s for years)

[gators78]

Extremely underrated ballstriker, Rocco flushes it, and always has. 

[dodger]

19 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Rocco states that he keeps his hands out of his swing and looking at his pre-takeaway move it would seem it is designed to do just that but I notice that in slow motion his left hand starts turning a lot sooner than in his pre-takeaway move and at the top the back of his left wrist is almost flat, which is quite different from the cupped wrist at address. It is clear his hands are active in the swing. Trying to understand how his hands work is what I have been focusing on.

 

Also, regarding extending early I don't believe that is physically/mechanically possible for a pro as their swings are much different than a typical amateur, and while the typical amateur may hit similar positions he is not resisting like the pro or using the same muscles. I can shoot in the 80's at best but play a draw and couldn't early extend if my life depended on it, it is completely impossible with my mechanics as well. I have a friend who early extends typically but if I can get him to get the club in a good position at the start of the swing he plays a draw and picks up about 10-20 mph w/his driver.

Early extension is not necessarily bad and I disagree that pro's are incapable of it. A guy named Nicklaus was fairly effective with it over the years. If you put a circle around Rocco's hands at address on the screen, watch where his hands are at impact. They moved out to the ball. His swing takes no divot. The point being made was a swing like that is very dependent on maintaining levels, which both Smith and Ballard discuss. If there is a little extension ala Nicklaus, it might lead to thin pushes with Rocco's backswing. Nicklaus took care of that with his transition move of increasing width of his hands and arms, and had a weaker grip than Rocco and felt a lot more release from the top. Fire those wrists and get the legs up and out to avoid burying the club in the ground. The main point I was trying to make is that Rocco is an incredible athlete.

[chipa]

4 minutes ago, dodger said:

Early extension is not necessarily bad and I disagree that pro's are incapable of it. A guy named Nicklaus was fairly effective with it over the years. If you put a circle around Rocco's hands at address on the screen, watch where his hands are at impact. They moved out to the ball. His swing takes no divot. The point being made was a swing like that is very dependent on maintaining levels, which both Smith and Ballard discuss. If there is a little extension ala Nicklaus, it might lead to thin pushes with Rocco's backswing. Nicklaus took care of that with his transition move of increasing width of his hands and arms, and had a weaker grip than Rocco and felt a lot more release from the top. Fire those wrists and get the legs up and out to avoid burying the club in the ground. The main point I was trying to make is that Rocco is an incredible athlete.

 

I see what you are trying to say but I just don't agree with the point about early extension as a typical amateur does it compared to a pros swing who might go a little over the top. The clubhead speed between the two is much different plus the amateurs body speed is generally higher than the pros from one article I read. The end result is while they may appear to be similar the extreme inefficiency of the amateur swing compared to a pro demonstrates the very different mechanics and muscles of the body being used. An amateur who early extends would have to swing out of his shoes to hit 95 with the driver. If Nicklaus did that in his prime he would be over 130 easily. In fact no amount of sheer athletic ability of any person with poor mechanics such as early extending like an amateur does will get them to 110 consistently, while for Jack with his over the top move that's just a chip shot with his driver in his prime.

[chipa]

@dodger

 

BTW, I am enjoying the conversation about early extending as I am trying to understand how this happens because I am trying to help a friend who is learning golf. I have swing issues like a typical amateur but that isn't generally one of them.

 

From what I can tell many golfers that recognize they extend early feel its because they somehow turn their hips too fast and "leave" their upper body behind. Nonetheless, looking at many tour players and long drive champions we can easily see that it's not possible to turn the hips too fast. In fact Nicklaus said he swung from the top and he could do that not only because of his good mechanics that made sure the lower body can't go anywhere without pulling the arms with them and two he had a weight shift which most amateurs don't.

 

So from my perspective the amateur (like my friend) has two big differences between their swing a a pros, one their particular mechanics don't allow the hand and arms to be automatically connected to the rest of the body so that when the lower body turns the hands and arms are still in a good position and two, when they turn their hips w/o every having gotten their weight on the right side then the fact that their hand and arm mechanics are wrong only exacerbates the problem. This is why most amateurs would be better off with a pause at the top to allow their hands and arms to get in a better position. However, pros don't need to do this of course.

[chipa]

4 hours ago, gators78 said:

Extremely underrated ballstriker, Rocco flushes it, and always has. 

 

Rocco says he keeps his hands out of the swing but that must be his perception because he certainly has good hand action thought the ball, and with such little body swing speed there is no doubt he is hitting big with his hands. I still remember seeing him against TW in 2008, with TW swinging so hard it seemed like he should be 60-80 yards in front of Rocco, when it looked to be around 25 yards at the most normally, and Rocco had a lot less body speed than TW. 

[MK7Golf21]

9 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Rocco says he keeps his hands out of the swing but that must be his perception because he certainly has good hand action thought the ball, and with such little body swing speed there is no doubt he is hitting big with his hands. I still remember seeing him against TW in 2008, with TW swinging so hard it seemed like he should be 60-80 yards in front of Rocco, when it looked to be around 25 yards at the most normally, and Rocco had a lot less body speed than TW. 

 

Rocco was at a tournament I went to like 6 years ago and I was walking by and saw him hit one shot. Surprised me how nice he hit it

[wagolfer7]

17 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Rocco says he keeps his hands out of the swing but that must be his perception because he certainly has good hand action thought the ball, and with such little body swing speed there is no doubt he is hitting big with his hands. I still remember seeing him against TW in 2008, with TW swinging so hard it seemed like he should be 60-80 yards in front of Rocco, when it looked to be around 25 yards at the most normally, and Rocco had a lot less body speed than TW. 

 

Is it good hand action or is it good wrist action?  One would not be able to tell the difference on video.  Whatever you do with your wrists, the hands will follow.  Same as another thread you talked about Finau and his early hand movement.  It possibly could be setting wrists in a position early, as opposed to actively turning the hand over.  

 

One of Padraig's video talked about how he believes that most power from PGA players come from the proper loading and unloading of the wrists.  If I remember correctly, he hits a few balls from his knees to demonstrate.    

[johnrobison]

21 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Rocco says he keeps his hands out of the swing but that must be his perception because he certainly has good hand action thought the ball

I just watched Monte's chat with Martin Chuck last night and Martin made one of the best comments I've heard. He said that he types with passive fingers. Like Rocco keeps his hands out of the swing, Martin has taken his fingers out of typing. Clearly Rocco makes good use of his hands but people who've trained themselves to do something well often conflate their lack of having to be consciously aware of it and not actually doing it.

[chipa]

3 hours ago, johnrobison said:

I just watched Monte's chat with Martin Chuck last night and Martin made one of the best comments I've heard. He said that he types with passive fingers. Like Rocco keeps his hands out of the swing, Martin has taken his fingers out of typing. Clearly Rocco makes good use of his hands but people who've trained themselves to do something well often conflate their lack of having to be consciously aware of it and not actually doing it.

 

I feel like that Rocco must also be flexing the back of his left hand right after he starts his takeaway because if I do it like he says to my left wrist cups all the way to the top and never flexes and thus my hands are never in a good position. With all due respect to the issue of setting the hands with the elbows I just can't make it happen consistently.

 

I feel my hands need to be active from the very beginning especially the left hand or it never flexes and the club will slip around. If I use too much left hand my left side tightens up and I can't reach back for and thus can't get good extension or a weight shift. So the issue is how the left hand should work and how it should grip the club, which only a lot of practice will help me find out.

 

As it is now I feel Rocco's level shoulder swing and the use of the ground and his active hands are a good method for people with problem backs like myself so I am going to keep trying.

[chipa]

3 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Is it good hand action or is it good wrist action?  One would not be able to tell the difference on video.  Whatever you do with your wrists, the hands will follow.  Same as another thread you talked about Finau and his early hand movement.  It possibly could be setting wrists in a position early, as opposed to actively turning the hand over.  

 

One of Padraig's video talked about how he believes that most power from PGA players come from the proper loading and unloading of the wrists.  If I remember correctly, he hits a few balls from his knees to demonstrate.    

 

I definitely feel the main difference between the pros and amateurs are how they use their hands.

 

I have learned a lot from Tony Finau, he not only starts his hands moving very early he also rotates his left forearm back against his right hand as it apparently stays still and resists. There was someone who claimed Hogan did the very same thing. I go back and forth between Finau and Rocco's methods but I think Rocco's will be easier to make a level shoulder turn as having my hands more towards the center helps me make a more level shoulder turn.

[torbill]

Anybody who has really dug into the Ballard method has to be scratching his head a bit, over some of the comments about hand/wrist action.  In fact, Ballard teaches that there is no manipulation of the wrists/ hands, that the wrists/hands are controlled by the small muscles, that small muscles cannot be trusted, that it is the large muscles that lead to power and control, and that the hand/wrists merely react naturally in a golf swing to the action produced by weight shift and the winding and unwinding of the large muscles  Ballard even sells a golf glove that intends to restrict manipulation of the hand/wrists.  Ballard had a formal debate with Jim Flick that used to be viewable on Youtube, and tore Flick’s hands-oriented method apart.  

 

Controlling a golf swing through any sort of manipulation of hands/wrists is not in accordance with the principles that Ballard taught.