Shallowing the club - just another "over the top" fixer?

[MountainKing]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I'm glad it doesn't bother you. Nonetheless, there are other guys on the forum that say manipulating the club on the way down with unnatural moves will hurt you. 

 

Because you're not,  and it will.   I don't think you understand the concept of shallowing.  It's not something you force,  or a teacher should be forcing.   You need to correct the move that's preventing you from shallowing, not forcing the club into shallowing.

[chipa]

8 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

If a teacher is teaching only how to shallow  I would run as fast as I could away from that teacher.  That's a bad teacher.

 

Shallowing however isn't a new concept, it's been part of the swing and teaching for decades.

 

In the 90's it was not considered good form to shallow the club more than Nicklaus based on reading Golf Digest and Gold magazines. In fact Sergio Garcia's swing was criticized for shallowing the club so much. Even Ben Hogans shallowing was considered excessive. Also, I had never even heard the term until I got back into golf in 2019 after I quit in 2010.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chipa

[Hilts1969]

28 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I already made it clear I thought that it hurts when I try to manipulate the clubhead on the way down. Plus I have a radar and see it robs me of at least 10-20% of my max potential clubhead speed.

 

Let’s leave it shall we unless you are using your body in a incorrect way to try and shallow the club which is you doing it wrong then you aren’t making much sense. Using your wrist or arms will not hurt your spine or knee. You can manipulate the clubhead all over the place with the wrists and arms. Your back and knee has nothing to do with it. 

 

Golf is not great for the back period that is just common sense but an early shallowing can keep the lower spine a lot more neutral. If you excessively side tilt to shallow the club that isn’t great for your back. Being steep is a pretty big reason for right shoulder drop/tilt followed by the left hip getting outside your left foot. These are not good for your back. 

 

 

 

 

[MountainKing]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

In the 90's it was not considered good form to shallow the club more than Nicklaus based on reading Golf Digest and Gold magazines. In fact Sergio Garcia's swing was criticized for shallowing the club so much. Even Ben Hogans shallowing was considered excessive. Also, I had never even heard the term until I got back into golf in 2019 after I quit in 2010.

 

Back in the 90's and prior "shallowing" was generally referred to as swinging inside and out or swinging from the inside.  Regardless of how you want to try to spin it or justify it, it's always been a move that good players did, and always been a move that good teachers have helped students achieve.  Hogan, Jackie Burke, Harvey Pennick, MIckey Wright and so on and so on have all talked about this for decades. It's not a new concept to golf.  I only use the old timers in this post to give examples of how this has been a thing since well before we were born.

[chipa]

8 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Let’s leave it shall we unless you are using your body in a incorrect way to try and shallow the club which is you doing it wrong then you aren’t making much sense. Using your wrist or arms will not hurt your spine or knee. You can manipulate the clubhead all over the place with the wrists and arms. Your back and knee has nothing to do with it. 

 

Golf is not great for the back period that is just common sense but an early shallowing can keep the lower spine a lot more neutral. If you excessively side tilt to shallow the club that isn’t great for your back. Being steep is a pretty big reason for right shoulder drop/tilt followed by the left hip getting outside your left foot. These are not good for your back. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am referring to manipulated actions that contort the body, which there is plenty of this to see on the forum and Youtube.

[Zitlow]

I never heard Austin say anything about shallowing the shaft. He created tension by winding his right hand, forearm and upper arm CCW in the backswing. As he started his downswing he relaxed the tension/energy. 

 

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

Back in the 90's and prior "shallowing" was generally referred to as swinging inside and out or swinging from the inside.  Regardless of how you want to try to spin it or justify it, it's always been a move that good players did, and always been a move that good teachers have helped students achieve.  Hogan, Jackie Burke, Harvey Pennick, MIckey Wright and so on and so on have all talked about this for decades. It's not a new concept to golf.  I only use the old timers in this post to give examples of how this has been a thing since well before we were born.

 

If I remember correctly the goal to have the downswing plane only slightly flatter than the backswing plane, in fact I never heard the term shallowing in all the years I had subscriptions. TW's swing was considered near perfect because of his similar planes. 

 

 

[MountainKing]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

If I remember correctly the goal to have the downswing plane only slightly flatter than the backswing plane, in fact I never heard the term shallowing in all the years I had subscriptions. TW's swing was considered near perfect because of his similar planes. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.  This is the same concept as shallowing.  It's no different than over the top, steep, swinging from the outside.  Just because it's called something different, doesn't mean it is. 

[me05501]

Twenty years ago everyone was trying to “hold lag” as long as possible. This was largely based on the flaws inherent in viewing 2-dimensional images of 3-dimensional movements. 
 

New analytical tools like Trackman, GEARs, force plates etc. have helped the instruction community better understand what was actually going on in those face-on “lag” photos. Eventually they figured out that not only were people not holding lag, but that it was impossible to actually do so at high swing speeds. 

What looked like wrist c0ck (a simple measurement of the angle between forearm and wrist) was actually wrist flexion (complex movement involving both wrist flex and forearm rotation). Now that people know better, they’re trying to teach better. 
 

For a lot of us, the intent of letting the club “get shallow” is a relatively simple way of getting us to use our body, wrists and hands in the way that puts the club in an ideal position coming into the ball. 
 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by me05501

[Hilts1969]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I am referring to manipulated actions that contort the body, which there is plenty of this to see on the forum and Youtube.

 

And  what manipulated actions are these you seem pretty insistent on not sharing them. Stand up straight rotate your chest only. Then  side bend not tilt. Then do the same but instead tilt instead of side bend. Tilting is not good for your back. If contorting is hurting your back whatever these secret moves are that you won’t share stop doing it. Moving your wrists doesn’t make you tilt.

 

My back gets sore when I play guitar I don’t blame the guitar or my fingers, wrists or arms It’s the crappy way I sit when playing. You need to learn the difference between bends and tilts. 

 

At the end end of the day we can’t play golf straight up and down just lessen the twisting of the lower back. Your wrists don’t make your back twist, you do. 

[chipa]

Just now, MountainKing said:

 

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.  This is the same concept as shallowing.  It's no different than over the top, steep, swinging from the outside.  Just because it's called something different, doesn't mean it is. 

 

What I am saying is I believe there is an over exaggeration regarding the importance of "shallowing the club" on the way down nowadays compared to before and that many "methods" out there that claim to help this that will hurt the body over time, especially older golfers. Some examples are pulling the left hip back, dropping the right side, pulling the left leg back, etc. 

[MountainKing]

Look at 2:17 and then 4:28, Tiger absolutely shallows, he's not coming down on the same plane or over.

[chipa]

Just now, MountainKing said:

Look at 2:17 and then 4:28, Tiger absolutely shallows, he's not coming down on the same plane or over.

 

I didn't say he was on the same plane, I said he was flatter on the downswing. 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by chipa

[RichieHunt]

Shallowing like good players often do is anything but unnatural. 

 

Often times not being able to shallow out the club just comes down to poor concepts that the golfer was taught or read in a magazine or watched on video.

 

You can have too much shallowing and that can present ballstriking problems of its own.  But I would, far and away, take a swing with too much shallowing than not enough.  

 

 

RH

[Hilts1969]

8 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

If I remember correctly the goal to have the downswing plane only slightly flatter than the backswing plane, in fact I never heard the term shallowing in all the years I had subscriptions. TW's swing was considered near perfect because of his similar planes. 

 

 

 

Tiger shallows you don’t understand that the body steepening and the arms shallowing gives the impression of only a slight shallowing move. 

[chipa]

Just now, Hilts1969 said:

 

Tiger shallows you don’t understand that the body steepening and the arms shallowing gives the impression of only a slight shallowing move. 

 

I said TW downswing was flatter.

[MountainKing]

Just now, chipa said:

 

What I am saying is I believe there is an over exaggeration regarding the importance of "shallowing the club" on the way down nowadays compared to before and that many "methods" out there that claim to help this that will hurt the body over time, especially older golfers. Some examples are pulling the left hip back, dropping the right side, pulling the left leg back, etc. 

 

With slow motion camera's and all the tools we have, the swing is more understood now more than ever.  It's pretty well known that all great players shallow.  A good teacher will help you get there correctly.  A bad teacher, or somebody on tour who can only explain what they are feeling (which may not be correct cause real isn't feel) might be telling you something that isn't what they're actually doing, and maybe that's where you're getting some of the bad info from.  You shouldn't have to manipulate to get there, go watch some videos from Monte, he knows what he's talking about.

[Hilts1969]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

I said TW downswing was flatter.

 

So your point is what exactly? 

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Shallowing like good players often do is anything but unnatural. 

 

Often times not being able to shallow out the club just comes down to poor concepts that the golfer was taught or read in a magazine or watched on video.

 

You can have too much shallowing and that can present ballstriking problems of its own.  But I would, far and away, take a swing with too much shallowing than not enough.  

 

 

RH

 

I think that if someone has to manipulate their body or the club on the way down they have done something wrong beforehand, and that they will never reach their max potential clubhead speed nor efficiency, in addition to hurting themselves long term with unnatural contortions to shallow the club.

[MountainKing]

4 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I didn't say he was on the same plane, I said he was flatter on the downswing. 

 

 

You then said they were on similar planes, which they are not. His downswing plane in that video isn't anywhere near his backswing plane.  That video, and any video of Jack, will show us the two greatest players of all time both shallow on the downswing.  It's a key position to get yourself in.

[golfarb1]

Body Rotation in the downswing  is a steeping move 

Shallowing by the arms can be thought of an enabler for body rotation 

Edited September 24, 2021 by golfarb1

[chipa]

Just now, Hilts1969 said:

 

So your point is what exactly? 

 

That shallowing the club is nothing more than a slice fixer and it would be better to change the setup/backswing so that the club does not get into this position as opposed to wrecking one's back, hips or knees.

[MountainKing]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

I think that if someone has to manipulate their body or the club on the way down they have done something wrong beforehand, and that they will never reach their max potential clubhead speed nor efficiency, in addition to hurting themselves long term with unnatural contortions to shallow the club.

 

This isn't a think, this is 100% accurate.  If you're manipulating something in an unnatural way, you're sacrificing power, and depending on the move, risking injury.  It's important to stop that and figure out how to do it correctly.

[chipa]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

 

You then said they were on similar planes, which they are not. His downswing plane in that video isn't anywhere near his backswing plane.  That video, and any video of Jack, will show us the two greatest players of all time both shallow on the downswing.  It's a key position to get yourself in.

 

I said they didn't shallow much. Neither certainly had any time to manipulate their body on the way down either.

 

 

[Hilts1969]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I think that if someone has to manipulate their body or the club on the way down they have done something wrong beforehand, and that they will never reach their max potential clubhead speed nor efficiency, in addition to hurting themselves long term with unnatural contortions to shallow the club.

 

And some people believe the earth is flat, I don’t mind getting on a boat I suggest you stay on dry land:-)

[Hilts1969]

2 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

That shallowing the club is nothing more than a slice fixer and it would be better to change the setup/backswing so that the club does not get into this position as opposed to wrecking one's back, hips or knees.

 

You are either a wum or deluded, either way it’s not worth my time. Do what you want life is too short for closed minds which contain wrong ideas. 

[chipa]

Just now, Hilts1969 said:

 

You are either a wum or deluded, either way it’s not worth my time. Do what you want life is too short for closed minds which contain wrong ideas. 

 

There are other posters here saying the same thing, that one should not try to manipulate the club on the downswing, and in other threads there are certainly plenty of older golfers that have pointed out contorting the body on the downswing is not good for older golfers.

 

BTW, good luck with your swing. I personally recommend feeling pushing off your right leg to start the downswing. In fact after reading Hogan's books and seeing TW play I started hitting softballs and practicing this move and changed my ballflight from a slice to a draw.

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Shallowing like good players often do is anything but unnatural. 

 

Often times not being able to shallow out the club just comes down to poor concepts that the golfer was taught or read in a magazine or watched on video.

 

You can have too much shallowing and that can present ballstriking problems of its own.  But I would, far and away, take a swing with too much shallowing than not enough.  

 

 

RH

Perfectly said.  I have no problem that golfers have a poor concept of what to do.  It’s an unnatural and counterintuitive sequence of movements.   The only problem I see is people that don’t study what’s actually going on in a good swing and spend thousands of hours on the lesson tee seeing what works and what doesn’t work, trying to tell others what’s right and wrong.

[chipa]

17 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Perfectly said.  I have no problem that golfers have a poor concept of what to do.  It’s an unnatural and counterintuitive sequence of movements.   The only problem I see is people that don’t study what’s actually going on in a good swing and spend thousands of hours on the lesson tee seeing what works and what doesn’t work, trying to tell others what’s right and wrong.

 

If you are referring to me the only advice I have offered is not contort your body unnaturally on the downswing (you as a professional should agree) and push off your right leg to start the swing, which I think is a natural move most people do hitting a softball or throwing a ball.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

I'm glad it doesn't bother you. Nonetheless, there are other guys on the forum that say manipulating the club on the way down with unnatural moves will hurt you. 

Shallowing isn’t manipulating.