Fair cup placement

[Haroputt]

Is there a rule that cup placement on the green must be in an 2 foot area that is flat?

 

i played a few old courses where green that are turtle dome shape or constant slope from back to front and there is no flat area

 

Whats is fair hole location for those greens? 

[ThinkingPlus]

No, it isn't a rule.  It is a tournament recommendation that many tours and tournament officials try to implement.

[Newby]

On 10/16/2021 at 8:55 PM, Haroputt said:

Is there a rule that cup placement on the green must be in an 2 foot area that is flat?

 

i played a few old courses where green that are turtle dome shape or constant slope from back to front and there is no flat area

 

Whats is fair hole location for those greens? 

From an old R&A recommendation but still true.

 

Many factors affect the selection of good hole positions, but the primary objective is to reward a good shot. The following points should be considered:

A. Take into account, where appropriate, the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Determine the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the possible conditions for the day – wind, rain and the holding nature of the green. In this connection it is recommended that a weather forecast is obtained and, if rain is likely, holes should not be cut where water would accumulate.

B. There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be positioned deeper in the green and farther from its sides than would be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot.

In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be positioned at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch.
Consideration should be given to allowing fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green. On the other hand, the penalty for failure is something the player must take into account in deciding whether or not to attack a particular hole position. Much will depend upon the standard of the players.
 

C. An area of two to three feet around the hole should be as level as possible. Effort should be made to ensure that holes are not positioned within three paces of a very severe slope or ridge or of a recently used hole. If the design of the green dictates that the hole be positioned on a slope, the hole should be cut vertically, not with the slope. A player putting from above the hole should be able to stop the ball near the hole.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Newby

[sui generis]

From Committee Procedures 5E:

 

(2) Selecting Hole Locations

The locations of the holes on the putting greens can have a considerable effect on scoring and the pace of play during competitions. Many factors go into the selection of hole locations, with emphasis on the following points:

 

In selecting the locations, the ability of the players should be considered so that the locations selected are not so difficult as to slow down play significantly or so easy as not to challenge better players.

 

The speed of the greens is a significant factor in choosing the location of the hole. While a hole location may work well for a slower green, it may prove to be too severe when the speed of the greens is increased.

 

The Committee should avoid placing a hole on a slope where the ball will not come to rest. When the contours of the green allow, holes should be placed where there is an area of two to three feet around the hole that is relatively level so that putts struck at the proper speed will stop around the hole.

Some additional considerations include:

 

Setting holes where there is enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and sides of the putting green to accommodate the approach on that particular hole. For example, placing the hole immediately behind a large bunker when a long approach is required by the majority of the field is usually not recommended.

 

Balancing hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, centre, front and back locations.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=5&subrulenum=5

[Mudguard]

Technically it doesn't need to even be on the green. Greenkeepers do have guidelines though. IE the faster your greens, the more careful you need to be. 

Sadly hole cutting seems to be given to the apprentice a lot of the time or a non golfer. 

Nothing worse than working all week and getting out on Saturday morning to find the Greenkeeper has been in a bad mood. 

[Mudguard]

Yeah we have a few holes where people are coming in with long clubs, and the pin will be six feet from the front edge and the green slopes from front to back. 

 

Edit. I think you should be able to two putt any green if your first putt is good enough. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Mudguard

[596]

I spent many years cutting cups.  Green speed and slope were the 2 big factors on placement.  Also no hole closer then a flag stick length to the edge of the green.  No old holes close by, no bad spots close by.  If the hole was short I would place the hole more difficult.  A longer more difficult hole has an easier hole placement. This has variables but was a good rule of thumb.

 

A few times when I arrived later in the morning I went out and changed a few bad placements from that morning.

 

Cup placements are recommendations only.  In fact the cup doesn't technically have to be on the green.  In the sand, on the fringe, or on the approach would not have been received well, but technically not wrong.

 

And yes, when I was having a bad day for whatever reason, I took it out on the golfers that day!!😄 But only on 1 or 2 holes.

Edited October 16, 2021 by 596

[rogolf]

Nowhere in the Rules does it say "flat", ie, zero slope.  However it is suggested that the slope near holes be consistent for about three feet around the hole.  A general rule employed by several officials is that the hole should not be placed in an area that has more than 2* slope, and this decreases as the green speed increases.  There are some courses and their management want their green speeds high and often fail to recognize that this significantly reduces the areas on greens that can be used.

Slope vs green speeds.pdf

[2bGood]

Lots of good info here. 

 

Bottom line: No rules exists about where the cup MUST placed.

However: Plenty of guidance is provided by the RB's on where it SHOULD be placed.

Edited October 17, 2021 by 2bGood

[Halebopp]

9 hours ago, Mudguard said:

Technically it doesn't need to even be on the green. Greenkeepers do have guidelines though. IE the faster your greens, the more careful you need to be. 

Sadly hole cutting seems to be given to the apprentice a lot of the time or a non golfer. 

Nothing worse than working all week and getting out on Saturday morning to find the Greenkeeper has been in a bad mood. 

 

The Rules of Golf do require the hole to be on the putting green. (Definition of Hole.)

[Haroputt]

I recommend that next rules committee meeting ought to put a new rule in place that the cup  must be on the green. 
I really don’t get why the cup  would be anywhere else

 

37 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

The Rules of Golf do require the hole to be on the putting green. (Definition of Hole.)

 

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Haroputt said:

I recommend that next rules committee meeting ought to put a new rule in place that the cup  must be on the green. 
I really don’t get why the cup  would be anywhere else
 

Why do they need a new rule?

Edited October 17, 2021 by Newby

[Haroputt]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

Why do they need a new rule?

Mudguard says the cup technically doesn’t have to be on the green 

is he wrong?

[Halebopp]

1 minute ago, Haroputt said:

Mudguard says the cup technically doesn’t have to be on the green 

is he wrong?

 

For the second time, yes, Mudguard is wrong. 🙂

[Newby]

3 minutes ago, Haroputt said:

Mudguard says the cup technically doesn’t have to be on the green 

is he wrong?

Did you not read the Definition of Hole?

[2bGood]

Just to jump into the silliness of the hole does not need to be on 'the green'.

 

It is true the hole has to be on the putting green.  But the putting green can be, by definition, what ever/where ever the committee defines it to be on the course.

 

Provided the committee defines the area around the hole to be the putting green, the hole can be anywhere on the course.  

[Newby]

39 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Provided the committee defines the area around the hole to be the putting green,

Or that the area is specially prepared for putting.

 

But the hole must be within that area. The hole follows the putting green.

[Haroputt]

Okay. So the hole is cut on the green. 
I played a few rounds early in the season when the green not ready and there is a “temporary green” which is just tightly mowed fairway just in front of the actually green that has white circle around it 

to define the boundaries of the “green” 
 

It usually a very bumpy green that is not fair to putt in and we just refuse to putt and take 2 strokes.  Is that fair enough?

[vandyfan]

I play a decent municipal course every week and there are always two or three hole locations that are on the side of a slope or RIGHT on the edge of the tier of the green (whereby if you putt the ball 2 feet past the hole it will roll down the tier to about 12-14 feet away. As someone who generally thinks that putting is the least interesting/fun skill in golf, this only increases the weighting of putting in your overall score. This is a pretty basic municipal course that generally has more people shooting over 100 than under it playing the course. As such, I don't understand if this is done intentionally (i.e. to "toughen up" a fairly easy golf course) or if the grounds crew simply does not care. 

 

All that said, I personally would rather the pin placements just stay in one spot (and that spot have 4-5 feet of flat all around the hole) than have to be surprised each week as to which pin will be put in an impossible place this week. It is starting to drive me crazy. 

[jholz]

I really don't see the point to these threads. Everyone complaining about how golf hasn't treated them right or something.

 

Golf is hard. Most of us suck. Get used to it. 

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, Haroputt said:

Okay. So the hole is cut on the green. 
I played a few rounds early in the season when the green not ready and there is a “temporary green” which is just tightly mowed fairway just in front of the actually green that has white circle around it 

to define the boundaries of the “green” 
 

It usually a very bumpy green that is not fair to putt in and we just refuse to putt and take 2 strokes.  Is that fair enough?

 

Temporary greens are covered in the ROG. Your question of fair enough needs a bit more context - but typically temp greens cause the course to be too short to be acceptable for handicap purposes.

 

1 hour ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

I play a decent municipal course every week and there are always two or three hole locations that are on the side of a slope or RIGHT on the edge of the tier of the green (whereby if you putt the ball 2 feet past the hole it will roll down the tier to about 12-14 feet away. As someone who generally thinks that putting is the least interesting/fun skill in golf, this only increases the weighting of putting in your overall score. This is a pretty basic municipal course that generally has more people shooting over 100 than under it playing the course. As such, I don't understand if this is done intentionally (i.e. to "toughen up" a fairly easy golf course) or if the grounds crew simply does not care. 

 

All that said, I personally would rather the pin placements just stay in one spot (and that spot have 4-5 feet of flat all around the hole) than have to be surprised each week as to which pin will be put in an impossible place this week. It is starting to drive me crazy. 

 

From a course maintenance view the hole needs to be moved to spread wear an tear around the green. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by 2bGood

[larrybud]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:13 PM, Mudguard said:

Technically it doesn't need to even be on the green. Greenkeepers do have guidelines though. IE the faster your greens, the more careful you need to be. 

Sadly hole cutting seems to be given to the apprentice a lot of the time or a non golfer. 

Nothing worse than working all week and getting out on Saturday morning to find the Greenkeeper has been in a bad mood. 

Few years ago I had one of my all time great rounds going.  On pace to break 70 for the first time. Not a fan of the course we were playing either, but had a good deal. Typical layout of the course is the fairways just END, then have rough for 30 yards, then they start up again. One of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Here's a good example from one of their flyovers.

 

Anyway, got to #13, hit the green in 2, and LUCKILY 4 putt. Ball would roll back down about 10 feet below the hole because of the hole location. Par 72, and I shot 71. 

Why does the fairway just END!?!? STUPID!!

[larrybud]

44 minutes ago, jholz said:

I really don't see the point to these threads. Everyone complaining about how golf hasn't treated them right or something.

 

Golf is hard. Most of us suck. Get used to it. 

 

Golf is hard when the course is set up fairly. Golf is stupid when it's not.

[jholz]

2 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Golf is hard when the course is set up fairly. Golf is stupid when it's not.

 

I love the way most of the stories about bad course set-up or pin placement tend to start with a statement like:

 

"I was on my way to breaking XX score for the first time..." - or analogous. 

 

It then proceeds to:

 

"I reached this really stupid hole that messed up my score..."

 

Concluding with:

 

"If that course had been set up properly, I would have posted a 62" (or whatever).

 

I mean seriously, if the story were truthfully told, it would go like this...

 

"I had a great round going, then I got to the XX hole and the difficulty of golf and my lack of ability finally showed itself. I made a 12 and ended up with my average score."

 

Conclusion: "Golf is hard, and I'm not as good as I think I am or as I want to be."

 

Amazing how a shift in perspective brings us closer to reality.  

 

 

 

 

 

[larrybud]

2 minutes ago, jholz said:

I mean seriously, if the story were truthfully told, it would go like this...

 

"I had a great round going, then I got to the XX hole and the difficulty of golf and my lack of ability finally showed itself. I made a 12 and ended up with my average score."

 

I don't think a hole placed in a spot where you can't place a ball within 10 feet has anything to do with lack of ability, but please let me know the putt putt course you play at where this is a regular occurrence so I can avoid it!

[larrybud]

I mean, is this ok?

 

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

I really don't see the point to these threads.

 

You aren't required to comment. Also, it's a message board....

[jholz]

3 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

I don't think a hole placed in a spot where you can't place a ball within 10 feet has anything to do with lack of ability, but please let me know the putt putt course you play at where this is a regular occurrence so I can avoid it!

 

There are a couple of different things to parse out here. 

 

First is the notion of "fairness." According to the rules, and what we have gathered from this discussion, if a cup/pin position is on the green, then it is "fair" according to the rules. There is no room to argue about that.

 

Now, we may argue that a pin/cup placement is "stupid" or whatever - but that's a completely different, and highly subjective, discussion. I'm not sure anyone is going to reach consensus there. 

 

Finally, I have played a variety of courses where the greens are the primary defense against par. I'm talking greens on the sides of hills - no flat spots to be had. Where is the "fair" pin placement in those situations?

 

I don't see difficult greens or pin placements as being appreciably different from fairway bunkers at 270 or water to the left. It is a feature of the course that dictates how you play it. Ultimately all of those features are there to make the game more difficult. 

 

We all have course types that set up better or worse for us. I can certainly point to a lot of courses that I just don't play well. But, I don't blame the architect or the greens keepers.

 

It's me who has to contend with the course as I find it and post the score. When I fail to post a good score, the only person to blame is myself. 

 

 

 

 

[vandyfan]

15 minutes ago, jholz said:

I don't see difficult greens or pin placements as being appreciably different from fairway bunkers at 270 or water to the left. It is a feature of the course that dictates how you play it. Ultimately all of those features are there to make the game more difficult. 

 

I mean sure but you can aim away from a fairway bunker or water hazard. To finish a hole you have to go into it, there is no playing away from it. So I would think that is a rather significant difference. 

[2bGood]

Maybe I just golf at the right places - but I can't say I have ever encountered some of the extreme - 'can't get it with 10ft of the hole' locations being discussed (unless I was playing in an ironman event). I kind of see this as a pretty fringe issue, that may occur at 1% of the courses, 1% of the time on 1/18 holes. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by 2bGood