Wrist hinge: side-to-side or hinge up?

[me05501]

One of my lifelong swing flaws has been a cupped lead wrist at the top and at impact. I’ve tried a lot of images and drills to try to fix this but none have worked so far. 
 

I’ve always imagined the wrist c0ck as being in address position and then using my wrists to bring the club head straight up off the ground in a vertical direction. But this move clearly puts the lead wrist immediately into a cupped position requiring some kind of manipulation to get it to a bowed position. 
 

I’ve noticed instruction from Milo Lines and others that advocates the wrists loading in more of a lateral orientation. Imagine this: with your palms together and arms straight out, all 8 fingertips move toward your trail side, not back toward your face. 
 

This method of wrist loading bows the lead wrist and cups the trail wrist which is exactly what you want at the top and at impact. And it’s very easy to do following a one-piece takeaway. 
 

The backswing becomes a matter of turning away in one piece, gradually loading the wrists in the same direction as the backswing and then finishing a full shoulder turn. 
 

It seems to work for me so far. I just don’t want to go too far down this direction if it is an eventual dead end. 

 

Thoughts? 

Edited January 24, 2022 by me05501

[HitSomeMissSome]

7 minutes ago, me05501 said:

One of my lifelong swing flaws has been a cupped lead wrist at the top and at impact. I’ve tried a lot of images and drills to try to fix this but none have worked so far. 
 

I’ve always imagined the wrist c0ck as being in address position and then using my wrists to bring the club head straight up off the ground in a vertical direction. But this move clearly puts the lead wrist immediately into a cupped position requiring some kind of manipulation to get it to a bowed position. 
 

I’ve noticed instruction from Milo Lines and others that advocates the wrists loading in more of a lateral orientation. Imagine this: with your palms together and arms straight out, all 8 fingertips move toward your trail side, not back toward your face. 
 

This method of wrist loading bows the lead wrist and cups the trail wrist which is exactly what you want at the top and at impact. And it’s very easy to do following a one-piece takeaway. 
 

The backswing becomes a matter of turning away in one piece, gradually loading the wrists in the same direction as the backswing and then finishing a full shoulder turn. 
 

It seems to work for me so far. I just don’t want to go too far down this direction if it is an eventual dead end. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

A lot of it depends on your grip. If you have a turned lead wrist (strong), more of a vertical hinge works (John Daly). If you have a weaker lead wrist (Colin Morikawa), more of a horizontal hinge (lateral as you say) tends to work better. Most folks have a blend of both. Rory tends to be a bit more vertical on the way up and horizontal on the way down. Good luck.

[wagolfer7]

It's impact that matters the most.  I think the bowed / cupped wrist talk plus motorcycle move and other wrist shallowing moves, is more about getting into a better impact position in the end.  

 

We all know the flip is what most amateurs are fighting.  Lot of debate on whether it's backswing problems that lead to this or possibly a misunderstanding of what impact position should feel like.  

 

I believe what is most important, is understanding that you don't want extension in the lead wrist or flexion in the trail wrist.  And it's probably un-natural for most amateur golfers to feel this correctly.  Extension and Flexion is not just one position.  It's varying degrees of it.  Lead wrist can increase flexion during the swing and lose some at impact, but still be in flexion position.  Same with trail wrist, it can have increased extension during the swing, but lose some at impact.  You can also go from extension to flexion or vice versa.    

 

My opinion is it doesn't matter how you hinge your wrists.  I think it's unique to each golfer.  From DJ to Wolfe.  What's more important is what's the best way for "you" to do it, so that you can easily and consistently get to the desired impact position.  Look at how much and how long Morikawa lead wrist is staying in flexion, as well as the trail wrist losing extension while arm is extending, but still keeping some post impact.  

 

 

[me05501]

35 minutes ago, HitSomeMissSome said:

 

A lot of it depends on your grip. If you have a turned lead wrist (strong), more of a vertical hinge works (John Daly). If you have a weaker lead wrist (Colin Morikawa), more of a horizontal hinge (lateral as you say) tends to work better. Most folks have a blend of both. Rory tends to be a bit more vertical on the way up and horizontal on the way down. Good luck.

That’s interesting to me, because it seems like the stronger the grip is the more likely that cocking the wrists vertically will put a cup in the lead wrist. 
 

When I say vertically I mean this: with arms extended and palms together, your thumbs move back toward your face. 
 

If I address the ball with a strong grip and hinge my wrists in that manner it creates a cup in my lead wrist that has to go away at some point.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by me05501

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

This method of wrist loading bows the lead wrist and cups the trail wrist which is exactly what you want at the top and at impact. And it’s very easy to do following a one-piece takeaway. 
 

The backswing becomes a matter of turning away in one piece, gradually loading the wrists in the same direction as the backswing and then finishing a full shoulder turn. 

General idea is you want your shaft to come in shallow in the downswing (i.e. from DTL, club COM path trace is 'left' of your hand path trace if you are a right handed golfer) -> easiest way to have a club that is shallowing from the top is that, in transition, your lead wrist moves into flexion and ulnar while your trail wrist extends and ulnars also; this whatever the position they were at the top... 

 

So, you can play from the takeaway/backswing that you mention... by flexing the lead wrist and extending the trail one early... the risky part is that (other than exibiting an unusual inside takeaway) you have already preset those wrists position; and it is very easy to lose that preset with the momentum of the club in transition, people usually 'loop it' the other way and come in steeper -> EE -> stall/flip save... but you can definitely play from there if you are able to hold your position (it is why so many people can do it with half or 9-3 swings but lose that structure at the top)

[tthomasgolfer605]

There's a very good chance it could be something you do before you even take the club back. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

51 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

If I address the ball with a strong grip and hinge my wrists in that manner it creates a cup in my lead wrist that has to go away at some point.  

You'd be amazed if you just reversed the sequencing of this. 

[me05501]

4 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

You'd be amazed if you just reversed the sequencing of this. 

You mean to say hinge my wrists toward me and then strengthen my grip? Like the motorcycle move? 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, me05501 said:

You mean to say hinge my wrists toward me and then strengthen my grip? Like the motorcycle move? 

Grip it first up in the air at a 45 degree angle or even with the shaft vertical, then set the club down. It's difficult for most to get the proper pressure points the other way. The strength of the grip is immaterial. That depends on hand and grip size. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

This is what I mean. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Go to 5:35. I've been saying the same thing for a long time. 

 

 

[wagolfer7]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

That’s interesting to me, because it seems like the stronger the grip is the more likely that cocking the wrists vertically will put a cup in the lead wrist. 
 

When I say vertically I mean this: with arms extended and palms together, your thumbs move back toward your face. 
 

If I address the ball with a strong grip and hinge my wrists in that manner it creates a cup in my lead wrist that has to go away at some point.  

 

For the record - a cupped wrist at the top is not a flaw.  

 

But you might want to check how you look at setup.  If you have a cupped wrist to start with, then it's going to be very cupped with a vertical set as you describe.  Also if you have too strong a grip, with the logo pointing more towards the sky than the target, then vertical set will make you very cupped.  

 

A lot of amateurs don't have hands set at lead thigh.  By getting the hands to this position, you can usually have a flat wrist set like Morikawa at setup.  

 

If you look at the pic below, if Morikawa did the vertical set as you describe his wrist would be pretty flat, maybe a touch of cup in it.  

 

Also me personally I do not set the wrist as your describe.  It's more of a blend of both.  But more importantly what it feels on top, so I can get in the position I'm trying to during transition.  

 

 

   

[me05501]

3 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

For the record - a cupped wrist at the top is not a flaw.  

 

But you might want to check how you look at setup.  If you have a cupped wrist to start with, then it's going to be very cupped with a vertical set as you describe.  Also if you have too strong a grip, with the logo pointing more towards the sky than the target, then vertical set will make you very cupped.  

 

A lot of amateurs don't have hands set at lead thigh.  By getting the hands to this position, you can usually have a flat wrist set like Morikawa at setup.  

 

If you look at the pic below, if Morikawa did the vertical set as you describe his wrist would be pretty flat, maybe a touch of cup in it.  

 

Also me personally I do not set the wrist as your describe.  It's more of a blend of both.  But more importantly what it feels on top, so I can get in the position I'm trying to during transition.  

 

 

   

Thanks for the info. 
 

Having seen a pro quite a bit over the last couple years I feel good about my grip, setup and alignment. I only mention it because it became obvious to me that the vertical c0ck from that position revealed the misperception I have about the wrist set. 
 

As someone posted above, the wrists move in both directions to some extent. But from a feel/real perspective, some of us can probably benefit from thinking more about the one way than the other. 

[PracticeSwinger]

14 minutes ago, me05501 said:

As someone posted above, the wrists move in both directions to some extent. But from a feel/real perspective, some of us can probably benefit from thinking more about the one way than the other. 

Correct - and as an aside; you never really want much of your wrists to go into radial deviation throughout your swing (they start being ulnar / become pretty flat in that direction and get back to ulnar at impact)…

 

Having said that - you will see that having your wrist flexed will limit greatly it’s ability to get into radial deviation (it’s even impossible for some people) while it is very easy to be radial when extended…

 

Combine the two and you will see why there are a lot of instruction that will prefer for the lead wrist to be bowed (flexed) at the top -> easier to get into a good impact position; rather than having a long way to go from extremely radial to ulnar in such a little amount of time

[me05501]

8 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Correct - and as an aside; you never really want much of your wrists to go into radial deviation throughout your swing (they start being ulnar / become pretty flat in that direction and get back to ulnar at impact)…

 

Having said that - you will see that having your wrist flexed will limit greatly it’s ability to get into radial deviation (it’s even impossible for some people) while it is very easy to be radial when extended…

 

Combine the two and you will see why there are a lot of instruction that will prefer for the lead wrist to be bowed (flexed) at the top -> easier to get into a good impact position; rather than having a long way to go from extremely radial to ulnar in such a little amount of time

Right. I’m not adding any tension or trying to hold a position. It just seems like thinking of my “c0ck” as left hand flexion puts my hands in a better position at the top. Will have to take some video to see about impact. 

[Oh Hi Carl]

I know exactly how you feel.  A cupped left wrist at the top has been my main swing flaw for decades, and I know just how hard it is to fix.  I've watched ALL of the YouTube videos on the left wrist at the top and I can promise you that virtually all of the instructors say it is much better to have a bowed or flat lead wrist at the top than a cupped one.  Cupped is definitely more of a problem than bowed,  Why?  Because cupped means the club is open and bowed means it is closed, and virtually all coaches would prefer you to play with a closed face than an open one.  Yes, some pros can play great with a cupped left wrist, but they are 1 in 1M.   

 

So, I struggled for years trying to fix it.  I would take practice swings and think the club was laid off but it was still slightly across the line.  What I have finally done to fix it (somewhat) is to get the feeling that the back of my left hand is pointing directly behind me (on the target line) at the top.  It's not, but that's what it feels like, and it gets me much closer to being flat than I ever have been.  But this took lots of time and patience.  Like swinging an 8 iron at 1/4 speed a thousand times before even putting a ball down.  Then hitting 1/4 speed 8 irons for days before going to half speed and then longer clubs.  And using lots of video for visual feedback, because it doesn't look like what it feels like.  It's probably one of the hardest errors to fix.  

 

I recommend finding some FEEL at the top that puts your left wrist where you want it.  Then repeating the backswing a zillion times, always trying to get that FEEL while also using video to ensure that you are actually in the position you want.  Then eventually take that feel to the range and start with really slow swings and try to make contact with the ball.  Stick to that FEEL and don't give up.  Keep at it with the faith that you will eventually get it.  There's no quick fix if something like that is engrained in your mechanics.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by Oh Hi Carl

[Liveonce]

If you like training aids I recommend the precision impact by pure golf. It has helped the feel quite a bit, I think it’s the best item out there.

[Tax77]

Faldo drill, until the cows come home.

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s a bit of both.  Things in the swing are almost never one or the other.  

 

Set the vertical

Set the horizontal 

Release the vertical

Release the Horizontal

 

Here’s a guy who just shot 63 and qualified for the Sony 2 weeks ago, as he’s working on it too.

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXWZG5uJhTC/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[golfarb1]

There seems to be quite a lot of misinformation on how the wrists and forearms move in the swing

 

First some basic Anatomy

1 . The wristscan move in 4 directions 

radial deviation- moving the thumb towards the radial bone on the forearm

ulnar deviation - moving the pinkie closer to the ulnar bone 

extension - bending the wrist towards the outside of the forearm

flexion- bending the wrist toward inside of the forearm 

Some of these movements are COUPLED - meaning a specific movement is more likely to happen when the wrist is in a specific position- This happens due to the muscles  involved and the shape of the bones involved 

flexion is more likely when the wrist is ulnar deviated 

extension is more likely when the wrist is in radial deviation

 

2. movement of the forearms 

Pronation - from a neutral position rotates the  radial bone so that the palm faces down

Supination- from a neutral position rotates the radial bone so that the palm faces more

palm up. 
 

Relevancies to GOLF

1.Shallowing the shaft 

 a .accomplished via pronation of lead forearm which rotates the forearm and and shaft so that it is more horizontal 

b. Via right shoulder external rotation 

Note NONE 

of the movements of the wrist rotates the shaft 

Flexion / extension changes the orientation of the clubhead( closing / opening the clubface)  , but can NOT rotate the shaft 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by golfarb1

[tthomasgolfer605]

33 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

There seems to be quite a lot of misinformation on how the wrists and forearms move in the swing

 

First some basic Anatomy

1 . The wristscan move in 4 directions 

radial deviation- moving the thumb towards the radial bone on the forearm

ulnar deviation - moving the pinkie closer to the ulnar bone 

extension - bending the wrist towards the outside of the forearm

flexion- bending the wrist toward inside of the forearm 

Some of these movements are COUPLED - meaning a specific movement is more likely to happen when the wrist is in a specific position- This happens due to the muscles  involved and the shape of the bones involved 

flexion is more likely when the wrist is ulnar deviated 

extension is more likely when the wrist is in radial deviation

 

2. movement of the forearms 

Pronation - from a neutral position rotates the  radial bone so that the palm faces down

Supination- from a neutral position rotates the radial bone so that the palm faces more

palm up. 
 

Relevancies to GOLF

1.Shallowing the shaft 

 a .accomplished via pronation of lead forearm which rotates the forearm and and shaft so that it is more horizontal 

b. Via right shoulder external rotation 

Note NONE 

of the movements of the wrist rotates the shaft 

Flexion / extension changes the orientation of the clubhead( closing / opening the clubface)  , but can NOT rotate the shaft 

 

 

 

 

This is the problem with golf instruction. Too many big words to get the point across. 

[golfarb1]

1. Every one must ulna deviate in the downswing in order to hit the ball- the only question is when

2. Having the lead wrist cupped at the top is NOT a swing fault. In fact it is far more common among touring pros than a bowed lead wrist . NOT cupped a lot, but cupped nonetheless 

3. The goal in regard to extension/ flexion is NOT to get the lead wrist bowed  or even a straight lead wrist at impact , but having your lead wrist in MORE flexion than it was at setup.

4. The “ Faldo drill” presets radial deviation and left forearm pronation at setup. When one pronates  the left forearm with stationary hands , the trail wrist  inevitably will go into more extension .Thus,  with the “Faldo drill” you accomplish  3 potential factors at once . Just swing back on plane and make a good transition and you will be well on your way .

5. Making a takeaway like MIlo Lines can be beneficial , but one must sure that you are NOT pronating( rolling)  your lead forearm early and NOT bending your right arm during your takeaway . 
 

[Cwebb]

Tom Tomasello explains it well here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22cGerPYvs&t=280s&ab_channel=lynnblakegolf

Edited January 25, 2022 by Cwebb

[KMeloney]

20 hours ago, me05501 said:

I’ve noticed instruction from Milo Lines and others that advocates the wrists loading in more of a lateral orientation. Imagine this: with your palms together and arms straight out, all 8 fingertips move toward your trail side, not back toward your face.

 

I'd say that this is pretty much how DJ cocks his wrists and gets to the top of his swing, but we mortals have to watch that the feeling of bending the right wrist back in the takeaway doesn't cause the club to get sucked inside early.

[bortass]

16 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s a bit of both.  Things in the swing are almost never one or the other.  

 

Set the vertical

Set the horizontal 

Release the vertical

Release the Horizontal

 

Here’s a guy who just shot 63 and qualified for the Sony 2 weeks ago, as he’s working on it too.

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXWZG5uJhTC/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

 

  Where does this drill fit within the NTC video drill sequencing? I have a tendency to roll my forearms at the start of takeaway. I obviously need to work on the take away drill from NTC still but would this help supplement that or should it be worked on after some other part of NTC? 

[MonteScheinblum]

51 minutes ago, bortass said:

  Where does this drill fit within the NTC video drill sequencing? I have a tendency to roll my forearms at the start of takeaway. I obviously need to work on the take away drill from NTC still but would this help supplement that or should it be worked on after some other part of NTC? 

It is NTC personified.  

[PracticeSwinger]

17 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s a bit of both.  Things in the swing are almost never one or the other.  

 

Set the vertical

Set the horizontal 

Release the vertical

Release the Horizontal

 

Here’s a guy who just shot 63 and qualified for the Sony 2 weeks ago, as he’s working on it too.

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXWZG5uJhTC/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

 

Love it... the clockwise square!... would you say that a lot of instruction tries to minimize the 4th leg; release the horizontal (cast B I assume) by 'forcing' players to rotate hard and try to hold it (even though it seems lead wrist moves into extension / trail wrist into flexing by sheer club momentum at the bottom) and exit 'lower' and left - to minimize ROC even though there's no correlation to shot dispersion...

[Krt22]

58 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Love it... the clockwise square!... would you say that a lot of instruction tries to minimize the 4th leg; release the horizontal (cast B I assume) by 'forcing' players to rotate hard and try to hold it (even though it seems lead wrist moves into extension / trail wrist into flexing by sheer club momentum at the bottom) and exit 'lower' and left - to minimize ROC even though there's no correlation to shot dispersion...

I obviously can't speak for Monte, but my take is the point isn't to minimize the 4th leg, it's to make sure it doesn't occur too early as a reactionary measure to close the face. 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

I obviously can't speak for Monte, but my take is the point isn't to minimize the 4th leg, it's to make sure it doesn't occur too early as a reactionary measure to close the face. 

Makes sense!

[MonteScheinblum]

Yes