Seemore vs LAB

[jomatty]

I’m just curious what people have found regarding Seemore putters “face balanced at impact” versus LAB and Axis1 “no torque” designs.  I had always thought that they were trying to accomplish completely different things, and honestly did not know what “face balanced at impact” was.  I’ve heard a LAB representative say “face balanced at impact is not a real thing”.  Today I saw a video on Seemore’s YouTube channel where the guy said that that face balanced at impact was the same thing as what other companies call zero torque.  
I've never had a LAB but am a big fan of Seemore.  I can’t say that the face balanced at impact is a big part of that, but I do like the way they feel, and they do feel like they swing a little different from other companies I have tried.  When I make a poor mans revealer, using my fingers they do quite well, as do a number of center shaft putters with a little onset.  I’m not completely sure how much torque balancing even matters, as it seems that any outside forces will change it, and there are so many other things that seem more important to a proper putter fit.  That said, I don’t see why it would not help a little.  Some seem to swear by their LAB putters while most seem to like them but move away eventually (such is putters).  There seems to be almost no interest on tour.  I’ve heard the argument that those guys practice so much they don’t need the help, but I don’t buy that…

So what do you guys think?  Is Seemore’s “face balanced at impact” just words that mean nothing, as the LAB rep suggested (he was overall positive about Seemore, just not their FBI TECH”, or is it basically the same as LAB’s torque free technology?

[Honeybadger]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

I’m just curious what people have found regarding Seemore putters “face balanced at impact” versus LAB and Axis1 “no torque” designs.  I had always thought that they were trying to accomplish completely different things, and honestly did not know what “face balanced at impact” was.  I’ve heard a LAB representative say “face balanced at impact is not a real thing”.  Today I saw a video on Seemore’s YouTube channel where the guy said that that face balanced at impact was the same thing as what other companies call zero torque.  
I've never had a LAB but am a big fan of Seemore.  I can’t say that the face balanced at impact is a big part of that, but I do like the way they feel, and they do feel like they swing a little different from other companies I have tried.  When I make a poor mans revealer, using my fingers they do quite well, as do a number of center shaft putters with a little onset.  I’m not completely sure how much torque balancing even matters, as it seems that any outside forces will change it, and there are so many other things that seem more important to a proper putter fit.  That said, I don’t see why it would not help a little.  Some seem to swear by their LAB putters while most seem to like them but move away eventually (such is putters).  There seems to be almost no interest on tour.  I’ve heard the argument that those guys practice so much they don’t need the help, but I don’t buy that…

So what do you guys think?  Is Seemore’s “face balanced at impact” just words that mean nothing, as the LAB rep suggested (he was overall positive about Seemore, just not their FBI TECH”, or is it basically the same as LAB’s torque free technology?

I agree with you that Seemore’s feel so easy to swing. I’m not sure of the LAB’s- never tried one. Maybe it’s the fact that the toe points to the ground, like an 8802? 

[Lasorcier]

Maybe it is because LAB putters are unsightly monstrosities.  I have never seen a LAB in the wild but have seen many SeeMores.  I have a cheap FGP, but don't game it because I like heavier putters (i.e., I have poor distance control with it).  I practice with it every once in a while.

[MattUtah]

Seemore has low torque, it doesn’t take much input to keep it square to the path but it’s only naturally sits square right at address. It basically plays like an old bullseye. The problem is on a lot of the FGP models the MOI is about zero. The mini giant models fix this.
 

Axis 1 is lower torque than Seemore. Stays very square to path, especially on short putts. Has the advantage of looking normal (the Rose) once you get used to the hosel. Yes, on the LAB revealer thing it’ll torque open and closed on longer and faster swings but it’s torque is very, very minimal. It’s a very clever design to reduce torque and still have a normal head shape and setup. 
 

LAB has zero torque. That’s their entire thing. The disadvantage is you get stuck with some pretty bad head shapes, shaft lean, and grips. 
 

FYI - Torque isn’t even necessarily a bad thing. It can be something you rely on for timing and feel. Eliminating it is definitely not always good for most people. 

[woods991]

1 hour ago, Lasorcier said:

Maybe it is because LAB putters are unsightly monstrosities.  I have never seen a LAB in the wild but have seen many SeeMores.  I have a cheap FGP, but don't game it because I like heavier putters (i.e., I have poor distance control with it).  I practice with it every once in a while.

 Check out the new putter from LAB, normal size feel is amazing, love Seemore as well but nothing compares to the new LAB putter. LAB Mezz if interested. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by woods991

[MattM97]

7 minutes ago, MattUtah said:

FYI - Torque isn’t even necessarily a bad thing. It can be something you rely on for timing and feel. Eliminating it is definitely not always good for most people. 

 

This is why I like a bit more toe hang on my putters. That torque feel is a big timing mechanism for me. I did own a LAB and honestly felt weird at first, I'm sure if I used nothing but that for a month I'd get used to it. 

 

I haven't used a SeeMore in a while so can't answer but like anything in golf people have to try it, can't go on what the company says. Everyone makes the best clubs in the world but only the user knows if it's best for them (with help of a fitter). 

[mshills]

The toughest thing for me on the greens is not executing the stroke. It’s consistent aim / alignment, and for that, SeeMore is pretty awesome. 

[Patrik1982]

I've played both. LAB is way, way, more stable and forgiving.

[bd59]

I’ve played both and still have them around. I like many on here, have bought a ton of putters.  I have bought several of the Lab / DF 2.1 models and I can get it out of the bag. The SeeMore feels a lot better, but I can’t lie about the results. The 2.1 just performs. I don’t play or get to practice much at all anymore so obviously my short game struggles at times.  But over the several months with the Lab, all I have to do is get a decent line with a decent speed and good things happen. I went out last week and played for the first time in months and had 26 putts with 6 birds. The best thing I can say about the Lab is how much more comfortable I am with 3-5 footers. It takes all of the “straight back - straight through”, “don’t pull it”, and “don’t decelerate” thoughts out of the equation. 
 

My only gripe with the Lab is, and it’s been stated a lot, is the speed of the ball off the face. It needs to be a tad “hotter” if that makes sense. The Lab is a great putter, it’s expensive but the technology works!! 

[jomatty]

5 hours ago, Honeybadger said:

I agree with you that Seemore’s feel so easy to swing. I’m not sure of the LAB’s- never tried one. Maybe it’s the fact that the toe points to the ground, like an 8802? 

I have a Seemore PCB that is face balanced and it feels very similar.  As well as a Nashville mfgp2 that has partial toe hang.  Then I game a Nashville mfgp that has toe hang like you describe.  They all seem very easy to swing square.

[jomatty]

4 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Maybe it is because LAB putters are unsightly monstrosities.  I have never seen a LAB in the wild but have seen many SeeMores.  I have a cheap FGP, but don't game it because I like heavier putters (i.e., I have poor distance control with it).  I practice with it every once in a while.

I game a Seemore, but they are not exactly beauty queens either.  My favorite putters but most of them are kinda ugly…

[Honeybadger]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

I game a Seemore, but they are not exactly beauty queens either.  My favorite putters but most of them are kinda ugly…

Oh yeah… 

[jomatty]

14 hours ago, Honeybadger said:

Oh yeah… 

There are exceptions!  My z3c is also very good looking imho.  My gamer is the Nashville mfgp though, and those are not my favorite aesthetically.  The mini giants are nice, but again, not my favorite aesthetically. The m7’s also look good.  
Really I don’t love the way center shaft putters look.  I aim them so much better that it is well worth it though.  Not to mention that they look a little better each time I make a putt!

[T-MAC]

Personally, I think the SeeMore putters feel much better than any of the LAB putters, and that leads to better putts - especially on lag putts.  I also think they look better, which is always a plus when you're looking down at the ball.
I tried to buy into the tech of the LAB putters but I couldn't get over their looks or their cheap feel.

[KhiloD]

22 hours ago, T-MAC said:

Personally, I think the SeeMore putters feel much better than any of the LAB putters, and that leads to better putts - especially on lag putts.  I also think they look better, which is always a plus when you're looking down at the ball.
I tried to buy into the tech of the LAB putters but I couldn't get over their looks or their cheap feel.

Truly subjective I guess. The materials used for the LAB putters are anything but cheap. Seemore has a variety of materials used from low end to high end as well so without comparing apples to apples can't make a true distinction past personal preference.

 

Did you get fit for the LAB? Makes a big difference other than rolling one at a store not made for you. That's the point of the tech.

[T-MAC]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:03 AM, KhiloD said:

Truly subjective I guess. The materials used for the LAB putters are anything but cheap. Seemore has a variety of materials used from low end to high end as well so without comparing apples to apples can't make a true distinction past personal preference.

 

Did you get fit for the LAB? Makes a big difference other than rolling one at a store not made for you. That's the point of the tech.

I only did the online fitting video so I don't know how accurate that is.  I'm sure a personal fitting would be much better.
I didn't mean to imply that the material LAB uses is "cheap" or inexpensive (although I really don't care for their grips).  What I meant by "cheap" was how the putters FEEL, to ME anyway.
I don't mean how the material feels when you touch it, I mean how the putters feels when the face comes in contact with the ball.  To me, it has the same feel as a much less expensive, cast formed putter head.  Kind of a tin can, hollow feel - however, I did think the B.2 felt a little better than it's big brother.
In that regard, I think the SeeMore "feels" much better than the LAB and that's a big plus in my book.
Everyone's "feel" is different though, so everybody should try each putter out for themselves and see what they think.  Also, pay attention to the ball you use to hit putts with (and use the same ball with each putter) because that could make a BIG difference.

[Mob]

I had a SeeMore Z3c putter and liked it a lot.  I have been in the Taylormade Spider Ex for the past 3 years.  I just bought the new LAB Mezz putter a few weeks ago, and have been rolling it inside.  The new Mezz putter model actually looks and feels quite good.  It is alittle strange to look at it at first, but I got used to it quickly.  If you get used to the letting the putter do the work, and not try and manipulate it, it is quite easy to use.  I haven't been able to get it out on the course yet due to weather, but I am encouraged with initial indoor practice, and can't wait to get it outside.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I have an old FGP.  It’s very close to torque balanced.  Looking at their current lineup, I don’t think the heel shafted M7, the mallets, and the offset models could be similarly balanced.  Only the center shafted skinny blades.  Just my opinion of the physics involved.

 

I was just practicing today with the FGP for the first time in years.  It’s so stable through the stroke.

 

 

[labgolf]

If I may....

Lots to unpack here. First, I love the SeeMore company. Their CEO is a true gentleman and their reps are great guys and EXTREMELY well informed about putting in general. I think their tech is legit and I think many people would benefit from giving them a look. I love the range of putters they make from a quality standpoint in that there are ceap ones and spendy ones, a SeeMore for everyone! HOWEVER, "face balanced at impact" is just not a thing. Below is a link to a youtube video where you can see for yourself. Because of the shaft location, its not going to fight you as much as a lot of other putters but it is a full toe hang putter. Period. The demo they do with the tee and all that is not a pure test at all. You could do that with almost any putter. Plenty of friction when holding a tee. Again, love the guys and their expertise but eliminating or reducing torque is not their jam. I saw the video referenced in the original comment here and I found it pretty stunning that the were claiming to be the same. Especially considering there was a revealer in the background of the video!!

Regarding weather or not torque matters (it does...big time) as some have questioned in this thread I would ask to try and think of it backwards. Lets say that lie angle balanced putters were the standard and then one day some comes out with a putter claiming "this putter that twists is better than the ones that stay square by themselves!!" ...that'd be a pretty tough sell. Sure, there is no putter that is universally better for all. Our issue about where we need to shaft them is a barrier for some but more and more the "I can't do center shafted" crowd are taking the plunge and getting used to it REALLY quick.

Regarding why more pros aren't using our tech or similar tech, pros are ALWAYS the last to utilize new technology. they are creatures of habit. But slowly, more and more of our putters are making it out on tour and more and more coaches are accepting that AT WORST, lie angle balancing is a legit option and at best, its just better.

 

[5hort5tuff]

I have owned the two original models of the LAB putters and I wouldn't game either.  They are not much to look at, and specifically the 2.1 felt horrible.  I did not keep either in the bag for very long, but I did give the 2.1 a really solid shot. Additionally, I really disliked the fact that you couldn't use your own grip on the mallets because of the shaft lean. I hated the OG Press and as a lefty the didn't have any other LH grip options at the time.

 

I will say the new Mezz is so much nicer to look at. They did a much better job with this one.  I really believe if they could figure out a more traditional anser style look they will sell a crazy amount of these. 

 

Regardless...I don't play a LAB putter. Oh, and the price is hard to swallow without any type of demo. 

 

I respect their technology and they are very helpful and informative.

[coloradogolf]

Loft and lie angles can be adjusted on a SeeMore putter at any time (with an internal shaft weight) but LAB can’t be adjusted. If you want even a slight adjustment for yourself or for resale, you would be out of luck. 
 

SeeMore encourages a neutral shaft position, so anyone who prefers a forward shaft lean will probably need an adjustment period. Conversely LAB encourages forward shaft lean and those, like myself, who have a neutral shaft position at address probably will not prefer LAB or need to get acquainted.

 

Neither will win any awards for elegance but I feel LAB can be a strong contender for the ugliness award.

 

SeeMore has won US Open, Masters, The Open Championship and a few other victories .... not sure about LAB.

[5hort5tuff]

I think its important to note that the LAB technology is no joke. It does do something that the Seemore does not. I would suggest buying one used or getting your hands on one to Demo before you drop $600.   To anser your original question, Seymore putters are no different than any other centre shafted stick.  LAB putters are different. 

[bbfifas]

I have had both now.  Years ago I tried the seemore and was not successful with it.  Not sure why but the shaft so close to the ball just threw me off.   Also I did not feel any 'tech' or anything drastically different except for the covering up the dot thing with the shaft to be repeatable.

 

 I now have the 2.1 LAB and it feels completely different the no torque thing is for real and the 'tech' is there.  Yes the size is big but honestly used to it rather quickly.  The new offer the Mezz looks nice too but have not rolled it yet.  

 

The LAB can be tingy on off center hits but pure strikes are very rewarding sound/feel.  But I'm not chasing the best sounding/feeling putter I want my putter to described as safe, comfortable, repeatable, smooth, nice roll, on line.  I use these words a lot with the LAB putter.   

[labgolf]

11 hours ago, 5hort5tuff said:

I have owned the two original models of the LAB putters and I wouldn't game either.  They are not much to look at, and specifically the 2.1 felt horrible.  I did not keep either in the bag for very long, but I did give the 2.1 a really solid shot. Additionally, I really disliked the fact that you couldn't use your own grip on the mallets because of the shaft lean. I hated the OG Press and as a lefty the didn't have any other LH grip options at the time.

 

I will say the new Mezz is so much nicer to look at. They did a much better job with this one.  I really believe if they could figure out a more traditional anser style look they will sell a crazy amount of these. 

 

Regardless...I don't play a LAB putter. Oh, and the price is hard to swallow without any type of demo. 

 

I respect their technology and they are very helpful and informative.

We've got lefty grips now! they're sweet. Feel has come a long way too!

[labgolf]

10 hours ago, coloradogolf said:

Loft and lie angles can be adjusted on a SeeMore putter at any time (with an internal shaft weight) but LAB can’t be adjusted. If you want even a slight adjustment for yourself or for resale, you would be out of luck. 
 

SeeMore encourages a neutral shaft position, so anyone who prefers a forward shaft lean will probably need an adjustment period. Conversely LAB encourages forward shaft lean and those, like myself, who have a neutral shaft position at address probably will not prefer LAB or need to get acquainted.

 

Neither will win any awards for elegance but I feel LAB can be a strong contender for the ugliness award.

 

SeeMore has won US Open, Masters, The Open Championship and a few other victories .... not sure about LAB.

Its not that we "encourage" shaft lean. The putters are built with shaft lean to accommodate the tech but the press grrip puts your hands in the same neutral position that the seemore or any other putter does.

[3PuttPro]

On 2/6/2022 at 6:41 AM, Lasorcier said:

Maybe it is because LAB putters are unsightly monstrosities.  I have never seen a LAB in the wild but have seen many SeeMores.  I have a cheap FGP, but don't game it because I like heavier putters (i.e., I have poor distance control with it).  I practice with it every once in a while.

I can’t get past the look of a LAB mallet as well. Putter has to be attractive and inviting for me. 

[jay143]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:17 PM, labgolf said:

If I may....

Lots to unpack here. First, I love the SeeMore company. Their CEO is a true gentleman and their reps are great guys and EXTREMELY well informed about putting in general. I think their tech is legit and I think many people would benefit from giving them a look. I love the range of putters they make from a quality standpoint in that there are ceap ones and spendy ones, a SeeMore for everyone! HOWEVER, "face balanced at impact" is just not a thing. Below is a link to a youtube video where you can see for yourself. Because of the shaft location, its not going to fight you as much as a lot of other putters but it is a full toe hang putter. Period. The demo they do with the tee and all that is not a pure test at all. You could do that with almost any putter. Plenty of friction when holding a tee. Again, love the guys and their expertise but eliminating or reducing torque is not their jam. I saw the video referenced in the original comment here and I found it pretty stunning that the were claiming to be the same. Especially considering there was a revealer in the background of the video!!

Regarding weather or not torque matters (it does...big time) as some have questioned in this thread I would ask to try and think of it backwards. Lets say that lie angle balanced putters were the standard and then one day some comes out with a putter claiming "this putter that twists is better than the ones that stay square by themselves!!" ...that'd be a pretty tough sell. Sure, there is no putter that is universally better for all. Our issue about where we need to shaft them is a barrier for some but more and more the "I can't do center shafted" crowd are taking the plunge and getting used to it REALLY quick.

Regarding why more pros aren't using our tech or similar tech, pros are ALWAYS the last to utilize new technology. they are creatures of habit. But slowly, more and more of our putters are making it out on tour and more and more coaches are accepting that AT WORST, lie angle balancing is a legit option and at best, its just better.

 

@labgolf Yeah, Seemore is definitely not the same as L.A.B. as you state...Lie angle balanced is definitely a magic technology and personally I've had success with the DF 2.1 and am very much looking forward to the Link .1 (many reasons, too much to get into here).  However, looking at the Link.1 got me looking at cs blades, which got me looking at Seemore lol.   I doubt I will go that route,  but I think you do need to give them credit for what they are stating about faced balanced at impact based on what you are showing here with the revealer.  When you are picking the Seemore putter up in the video, it doesn't immediately flop open...the videos on the Lab website where Sam is showing traditional face balanced and toe balanced putters show them immediately twisting open when he picks them up in the address position.

 

Thanks for making such awesome stuff and I can't wait to get my hands on a Link.1!

[EricL]

Have tried both. Have given the LAB putters multiple tries and multiple occasions - I literally wanted to like it and put one in the bag but couldn’t do it. Nothing felt “right” about them. 
 

Rewind to yesterday at the PGA store and realized the RST tech in the SeeMore’s and was instantly blown away. Especially in the Mini Giant DF at 34”. I have always used 37” so I was shocked that this size/spec felt the way it did. I honestly can’t believe more people don’t game SeeMore’s — it’s always Scotty’s, Odyssey’s, or LAB putters seem to be all the fuss nowadays. 

[5hort5tuff]

22 hours ago, EricL said:

Have tried both. Have given the LAB putters multiple tries and multiple occasions - I literally wanted to like it and put one in the bag but couldn’t do it. Nothing felt “right” about them. 
 

Rewind to yesterday at the PGA store and realized the RST tech in the SeeMore’s and was instantly blown away. Especially in the Mini Giant DF at 34”. I have always used 37” so I was shocked that this size/spec felt the way it did. I honestly can’t believe more people don’t game SeeMore’s — it’s always Scotty’s, Odyssey’s, or LAB putters seem to be all the fuss nowadays. 

 

The Mini Deep Flange is a really nice putter. High moi and feels really great. 

[SAM_PGA]

I can attest to the SeeMore MiniGiant Deep Flange.  First SeeMore I’ve used in 24 years w/ The Original!  

 

Feel is great, forgiveness is great, alighnment is spot-on.  The new Mini giant HTX is something to look at too with a new “modern” mallet look.  

 

Mini Giant Deep Fange

 

Mini Giant HTX

Edited April 4 by SAM_PGA