Spinner shafts for wedges by Howard Jones - The #8 iron spinner trick

[BombinJim]

On 2/16/2022 at 9:26 AM, Howard_Jones said:

ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS – TIGER STEPPING – TIP TRIM OF TAPER TIP SHAFTS.
Since the target is a shaft with a flex in the area of a dedicated GW shaft, and some players already has X flex irons, and of a model where no TX flex option exist, we have a alternative route where we simply tip trim a taper tip shaft to get the “GW shaft” we want. We now have to ask, is the #9 the shortest and stiffest and used for both #9 or PW (like Dynamic Gold), or does a dedicated PW shaft exist? That’s important to know, since our target is only “1 shaft stronger” than a dedicated PW shaft.

Tip trim of taper tips is quite normal, but our limitation is often only 3/8” before we meet insert issues in a taper tip hosel. For most, but not all shaft models that can be fixed with a ream job to 0.370, IF the actual shaft model has a strait parallel tip section above the “taper part”. The taper part of the tip itself is most often 6/8” long, so use a caliper and measure tip OD on that point, and do the same right below first step or where the main taper section of the shaft starts. If both points say 0.370 you are free to tip trim as much as you like without insert issues, but don’t forget to leave enough tip section for the summary of full insert depth, plus the height of the wanted ferrules.

@Howard_JonesJust to clarify this. If we Tiger step (1/4” or 3/8”) we must ream the hosel to .370 if the hosel is a taper type?

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, BombinJim said:

@Howard_JonesJust to clarify this. If we Tiger step (1/4” or 3/8”) we must ream the hosel to .370 if the hosel is a taper type?

NO, most hosels have no issues with insert when we use taper tip shafts tip trimmed 3/8", so "we say" 3/8" can be done, but if we want to tip trim more than that, we will most likely (but not always) need a ream job to 0.370.

ts only the last 6/8" of the tip thats taper. Above that most shafts has a strait 0.370 tip just like parallel irons, while other shaft models (like Dynamic Gold) have a "second taper" who starts at 6/8" as 0.370 and expand to 0.395 right below the first step, so if the plan is to tip trim more than 3/8", we have to measure the actual tip with a caliper at several points to know what shaft OD we ends up with.

[Ty-Webb]

Nice tutorial. I have read it several times and have one idea I am hoping someone can provide feedback. I play DG 120 x100... I could take another 8 iron in that same shaft and tip trim but when I explained this to my local shop the guy working had heard of this but wasn't too keen on tip trimming. With that said, would full weight 130g DG x100 8 iron butt trimmed down work? I have a feeling it may not be strong enough of a difference to pull off what Howard mentioned in the first post. What about X7?

[Howard_Jones]

13 minutes ago, Ty-Webb said:

Nice tutorial. I have read it several times and have one idea I am hoping someone can provide feedback. I play DG 120 x100... I could take another 8 iron in that same shaft and tip trim but when I explained this to my local shop the guy working had heard of this but wasn't too keen on tip trimming. With that said, would full weight 130g DG x100 8 iron butt trimmed down work? I have a feeling it may not be strong enough of a difference to pull off what Howard mentioned in the first post. What about X7?

You missed something VERY important here. If you play X for Irons, a SPINNER for wedges is TX flex.
Its absolutly no reason to tip trim a #8 from the same flex you play in irons, it want add spin, since its a softer than than your #9, and we need a shaft thats in the area of where a dedicated GW shaft would have been, and thats 2 shafts stronger than your #9 

So, as a Dynamic Gold X flex player, its DG X7 - #8 iron shafts thats needed here.

PS! tell your club maker friend that we can tip trim a taper 3/8", some even more before we get insert issues and need a ream job to 0.370, so its nothing to worry about. We very often do that for the PW in DG iron sets, since there is no dedicated PW shaft from TT.

[Ty-Webb]

12 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

You missed something VERY important here. If you play X for Irons, a SPINNER for wedges is TX flex.
Its absolutly no reason to tip trim a #8 from the same flex you play in irons, it want add spin, since its a softer than than your #9, and we need a shaft thats in the area of where a dedicated GW shaft would have been, and thats 2 shafts stronger than your #9 

So, as a Dynamic Gold X flex player, its DG X7 - #8 iron shafts thats needed here.

PS! tell your club maker friend that we can tip trim a taper 3/8", some even more before we get insert issues and need a ream job to 0.370, so its nothing to worry about. We very often do that for the PW in DG iron sets, since there is no dedicated PW shaft from TT.

 

Thank you I actually misspoke on the tip trim part 9/PW DG was what I wanted to ask. But you cleared up my couple of questions. And yes I have shared the original post of this thread with the clubmaker and I believe we are going to do an experiment when things slow down for him - tipping a 9/PW x100 vs the DG X7 8 iron.

[hammergolf]

Just found some 37.5” DG SL Sensicore shafts cheap and going to reshaft an Eye2 LW and 2 PXG 0311 Forged wedges. I’ll report back how they work.

[FirePro]

Never thought I would put an x stiff shaft in my lob wedge but TT DG X100 tipped 3/8" installed, Gripping it tonight to see how it feels tomorrow, if this works out X7's tipped 3/8" going in the 54 and 49.

 

@Howard_Jones I was looking at KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 and the description seemed to contradict the Spinner shaft idea.  Just curious on your thoughts.  Have they developed a different method or is this marketing?

 

"The new, KBS HI-REV 2.0 features an active tip section that increases the effective loft of the club head, delivering a higher ball launch with more spin for added stopping power and accuracy."

[Ty-Webb]

You're going to tip an X7? Report back... I am after some X7's right now however only going to do a butt trim to desired length. Trimming an 8iron down bring up another question I haven't seen asked in here yet.. how much will 4-5 inches of trim going to change the weight of the shaft? 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Ty-Webb

[FirePro]

1 hour ago, Ty-Webb said:

You're going to tip an X7? Report back... I am after some X7's right now however only going to do a butt trim to desired length. Trimming an 8iron down bring up another question I haven't seen asked in here yet.. how much will 4-5 inches of trim going to change the weight of the shaft? 

I am going to be putting X7's in a set of irons and if the X100 works in the 58 im going to tip trim X7 37" shaft 3/8" to account for the additional weight.  Need to bring flight down in everything.  If I understand the 8 iron spinner correctly you would need to go up in flex in the 8 iron shaft.  so if you are playing X100 the 8 iron shaft in X7 strait in will work.  I don't have an option to go stiffer 8 iron shaft so I am left to tip trimming the 9/PW shaft to account for the addition weight of the wedges

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, FirePro said:

Never thought I would put an x stiff shaft in my lob wedge but TT DG X100 tipped 3/8" installed, Gripping it tonight to see how it feels tomorrow, if this works out X7's tipped 3/8" going in the 54 and 49.

 

@Howard_Jones I was looking at KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 and the description seemed to contradict the Spinner shaft idea.  Just curious on your thoughts.  Have they developed a different method or is this marketing?

 

"The new, KBS HI-REV 2.0 features an active tip section that increases the effective loft of the club head, delivering a higher ball launch with more spin for added stopping power and accuracy."

The latest TT DG Spinner is a S200 #8 iron shaft, Wedge flex was S200 #9, so TT also go softer and call it a spinner, but compare them side by side on spin, and judge dispersion at the same time. i no longer have my studio or a Trackman so i cant do it, but it contradicts all i know about it, and it contradicts player feedback from users in this forum the latest 12 years.

[Mp14forlife]

Howard, 

 

I may have asked this before, so I apologize. How does soft stepping affect this. I am getting ready for an iron build with project x shafts, 6.0 but ssx2. I carry a 52, 56, 60 and 64. Would the full flex for spinner need to take into account the soft stepping for the rest of the set? Would I be putting in a 7.0 6 iron shaft into wedges? Or just a 7.0 8 iron in all wedges? Sorry but I've confused myself once again. 

[Howard_Jones]

8 minutes ago, Mp14forlife said:

Howard, 

 

I may have asked this before, so I apologize. How does soft stepping affect this. I am getting ready for an iron build with project x shafts, 6.0 but ssx2. I carry a 52, 56, 60 and 64. Would the full flex for spinner need to take into account the soft stepping for the rest of the set? Would I be putting in a 7.0 6 iron shaft into wedges? Or just a 7.0 8 iron in all wedges? Sorry but I've confused myself once again. 

What we seek for a GW, is a shaft strong enough to be a dedicated GW, or simply "1 shaft stronger than the PW". 
When we soft step once, all shafts in our set is "1 shaft softer", and at SS2, they become "2 shafts softer", so in your case at SS2, you are playing a #8 iron shaft as PW shaft..

....now ask your self, what shaft would be "1 shaft stronger" to use for a GW?...that would be a PX 6.0 #9 iron shaft, and if you want the same flex progression for your Sand wedge, we need 1 shaft stronger than that, in your case the dedicated PW shaft from PX 6.0....so its no need to move to 7.0 in your case.

Those who plays their shafts "strait in", dont have that option you have, thats why we must move to a stronger flex.
 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Mp14forlife]

1 minute ago, Howard_Jones said:

What we seek for a GW, is a shaft strong enough to be a dedicated GW, or simply "1 shaft stronger than the PW". 
When we soft step once, all shafts in our set is "1 shaft softer", and at SS2, they become "2 shafts softer", so in your case at SS2, you are playing a #8 iron shaft as PW shaft..

....now ask your self, what shaft would be "1 shaft stronger"?...that would be a PX 6.0 #9 iron shaft for GW, and if you want the same flex progression for your Sand wedge, we need 1 shaft stronger than that, in your case the dedicated PW shaft from PX 6.0....so its no need to move to 7.0 in your case.

Those who plays their shafts "strait in", dont have that option you have, thats why we must move to a stronger flex.
 

Gotcha, light bulb moment. Thank you Howard. 

[flyingwedges2]

12 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

The latest TT DG Spinner is a S200 #8 iron shaft, Wedge flex was S200 #9, so TT also go softer and call it a spinner, but compare them side by side on spin, and judge dispersion at the same time. i no longer have my studio or a Trackman so i cant do it, but it contradicts all i know about it, and it contradicts player feedback from users in this forum the latest 12 years.

Howard, gong way back to the Royal Precision days, what was an original spinner shaft?

[Howard_Jones]

4 minutes ago, flyingwedges2 said:

Howard, gong way back to the Royal Precision days, what was an original spinner shaft?

Same as what im writing about here, a full flex stronger #8 iron shaft, so for FCM 6.0 irons, a spinner wedge was a 7.0 #8 iron shaft.

[flyingwedges2]

6 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Same as what im writing about here, a full flex stronger #8 iron shaft, so for FCM 6.0 irons, a spinner wedge was a 7.0 #8 iron shaft.

Thanks Howard.  I was pretty well connected, for quite a while, to the shaft industry, through two well known (one very well known to this day) custom club guys, and I have never heard this description of one flex stronger.  When I can make some time, I'll do a bit of investigation on my frequency machine, as I have 20+ of the old spinner shafts.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by flyingwedges2

[Howard_Jones]

21 minutes ago, flyingwedges2 said:

Thanks Howard.  I was pretty well connected, for quite a while, to the shaft industry, through two well known (one very well known to this day) custom club guys, and I have never heard this description of one flex stronger.  When I can make some time, I'll do a bit of investigation on my frequency machine, as I have 20+ of the old spinner shafts.

 

it was never published what it was, they kept that to themselves. What ive done with that idea, is simply to measure out "what shaft slot" that shaft fits into,(Butt CPM and Deflection) and thats a dedicated GW shaft. 

- Since most players dont play Rifle FCM, and we want a shaft that feels the same as our irons, and the same weight area, i started testing to see if we could transfer that concept to "what ever shaft model", and yes we can, so if the player is happy with his irons, it will feel natural and just like a GW shaft would have been,thats the good thing about it. 

On page 1 in this tread im explaining what options we have "to get there", depending on what shaft model and flex we play, thats my contribution to it, but the idea and concept it all starts from comes from Brunswick / Royal Precision.

The "system" behind simply looks like this:

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[flyingwedges2]

15 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

it was never published what it was, they kept that to themselves. What ive done with that idea, is simply to measure out "what shaft slot" that shaft fits into,(Butt CPM and Deflection) and thats a dedicated GW shaft. 

- Since most players dont play Rifle FCM, and we want a shaft that feels the same as our irons, and the same weight area, i started testing to see if we could transfer that concept to "what ever shaft model", and yes we can, so if the player is happy with his irons, it will feel natural and just like a GW shaft would have been,thats the good thing about it. 

On page 1 in this tread im explaining what options we have "to get there", depending on what shaft model and flex we play, thats my contribution to it, but the idea and concept it all starts from comes from Brunswick / Royal Precision.

The "system" behind simply looks like this:

 

Thanks Howard. I sent you a private message as I won't post the names of those I know, publicly.

 

[27x10.5]

I’ve searched and still can’t find this unless I’m missing it…I play MMT 125TX, so there’s no flex higher and you aren’t supposed to tip trim them. Just go 8i straight in and butt trim anyway for my 50*? I thought I read if you play the top of the flex already you tip trim but these say not to, of course I already bought the 8i shaft 

[Trippels]

19 minutes ago, 27x10.5 said:

I’ve searched and still can’t find this unless I’m missing it…I play MMT 125TX, so there’s no flex higher and you aren’t supposed to tip trim them. Just go 8i straight in and butt trim anyway for my 50*? I thought I read if you play the top of the flex already you tip trim but these say not to, of course I already bought the 8i shaft 

Wouldn't that be the opposite effect of what is intended? A 8i shaft will be softer than the PW shaft within the same flex. The point of the spinner shaft is that it is stiffer.

[Howard_Jones]

22 minutes ago, 27x10.5 said:

I’ve searched and still can’t find this unless I’m missing it…I play MMT 125TX, so there’s no flex higher and you aren’t supposed to tip trim them. Just go 8i straight in and butt trim anyway for my 50*? I thought I read if you play the top of the flex already you tip trim but these say not to, of course I already bought the 8i shaft 

There is no other options but tip trim if we want a stronger shaft than TX flex, now you are soft stepping, and that want add spin or lower launch, but reduce spin and make launch higher. You would have been better off using a MMT PW shaft compared to using a #8 iron shaft.

[27x10.5]

Ok so of course I almost bought a PW shaft and said don’t overthink this…should I just swap the 8i out for PW

[Ty-Webb]

50 minutes ago, 27x10.5 said:

Ok so of course I almost bought a PW shaft and said don’t overthink this…should I just swap the 8i out for PW

 

Yes you're going to need a PW for what you want. I  play x100 and unable to find X7's so I am down to ordering x100 in PW and doing the 3/8" tip trim as that's the only option available when you can't go up a full flex. 

[FirePro]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:06 AM, Howard_Jones said:

The latest TT DG Spinner is a S200 #8 iron shaft, Wedge flex was S200 #9, so TT also go softer and call it a spinner, but compare them side by side on spin, and judge dispersion at the same time. i no longer have my studio or a Trackman so i cant do it, but it contradicts all i know about it, and it contradicts player feedback from users in this forum the latest 12 years.

Thanks again Howard for the feedback, the X100 tipped 3/8" seems to work out great in the 58*.  I probably never would have got to that on my own so I appreciate sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.  I assume I know the answer to but thought I would ask anyways.  given all aspects the same in the build will the X7 8 iron straight in launch lower than the X100 tipped 3/8".

 

Also to add the X100 tipped 3/8" seemed to get my strike more centered but still felt good on pitch and chips which again I was shocked.

[Howard_Jones]

16 minutes ago, FirePro said:

Thanks again Howard for the feedback, the X100 tipped 3/8" seems to work out great in the 58*.  I probably never would have got to that on my own so I appreciate sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.  I assume I know the answer to but thought I would ask anyways.  given all aspects the same in the build will the X7 8 iron straight in launch lower than the X100 tipped 3/8".

 

Also to add the X100 tipped 3/8" seemed to get my strike more centered but still felt good on pitch and chips which again I was shocked.

In theory, a X100 #9 tip trimmed 5/8", should be about the same FLEX as DG X7 #8, but since they have the same step pattern (X100 #9 vs X7 #9, so X7 #8 got 0.5 longer tip section uncut, and 7/8" longer vs X100 #9 tip trimmed 3/8), im really not sure what would be the stiffest of them (never measured that), while 3/8" on X100 will be a tad softer than X7 #8. Since we all respond a little different to how it FEELs, its not possible to predict if X7 #8 would be a "lower" launching shaft and how much....the best guesstimate would be "maybe" or in that area 🙂. (i never worked with the new "X Seven", only the OG X7 who is a different animal)

What i do know for sure is that X100 even without tip trim as #8 iron shaft, launches lower and spin more than S400 #9 who is the most played wedge shafts of them all, so X100 #9 tipped 3/8" would be even "better" since we both have a slightly thicker shaft walls vs the #8, and 7/8" shorter tip section (#8 strait in vs #9 tipped 3/8"), so im not surprised that it works for you.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[FirePro]

30 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

In theory, a X100 #9 tip trimmed 5/8", should be about the same FLEX as DG X7 #8, but since they have the same step pattern (X100 #9 vs X7 #9, so X7 #8 got 0.5 longer tip section uncut, and 7/8" longer vs X100 #9 tip trimmed 3/8), im really not sure what would be the stiffest of them (never measured that), while 3/8" on X100 will be a tad softer than X7 #8. Since we all respond a little different to how it FEELs, its not possible to predict if X7 #8 would be a "lower" launching shaft and how much....the best guesstimate would be "maybe" or in that area 🙂. (i never worked with the new "X Seven", only the OG X7 who is a different animal)

What i do know for sure is that X100 even without tip trim as #8 iron shaft, launches lower and spin more than S400 #9 who is the most played wedge shafts of them all, so X100 #9 tipped 3/8" would be even "better" since we both have a slightly thicker shaft walls vs the #8, and 7/8" shorter tip section (#8 strait in vs #9 tipped 3/8"), so im not surprised that it works for you.

looks like I need to do some testing maybe.  If I do I will report back my findings, the sample pool of 1 person may not give a great average ha and on something most wont need.  

 

Again thanks for the insight good sir, have a great day

[Bigt44]

I never post here but I read a lot (6 years since I signed up and this is my first post).  This has really peaked my interest because I flip my short wedges a lot and really want something (besides a new swing) to fix the height and spin.  I am always switching irons.  I love it. I go through 5 sets or more a year.  Typically play stiff shafts.  I'd like to get 3 wedge shafts (50 / 54 / 58) set up and always use when I replace my wedges.  I like LZ 6.0, Nippon 120 S, and currently have AMT S300 Black.  I suppose since I keep switching iron sets, I could use any of these shafts models but in X flex?  Would I need to tip trim any of them?  That is the part I'm a bit lost on.  Should I just buy these shafts in X flex and butt trim to proper length only 8i = 50, 9i = 54, PW = 58?  I could get LZ 6.5, Modus 120 X or AMT Black X100 (if there is such a thing) 8, 9 and PW irons then butt trim and install in the 50 / 54 / 58, correct?  Thanks so much.  And appreciate all of the other posts on WRX.  

I also switch wedge sets too.  I sometimes use a 48 / 52 / 58.   Sometimes I use 50 / 56 / 60 as well.  Would 8 iron be for 48 - 52,  9 iron for 54 - 56 and PW for 58* and higher?

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bigt44

[Howard_Jones]

13 minutes ago, Bigt44 said:

I never post here but I read a lot (6 years since I signed up and this is my first post).  This has really peaked my interest because I flip my short wedges a lot and really want something (besides a new swing) to fix the height and spin.  I am always switching irons.  I love it. I go through 5 sets or more a year.  Typically play stiff shafts.  I'd like to get 3 wedge shafts (50 / 54 / 58) set up and always use when I replace my wedges.  I like LZ 6.0, Nippon 120 S, and currently have AMT S300 Black.  I suppose since I keep switching iron sets, I could use any of these shafts models but in X flex?  Would I need to tip trim any of them?  That is the part I'm a bit lost on.  Should I just buy these shafts in X flex and butt trim to proper length only 8i = 50, 9i = 54, PW = 58?  I could get LZ 6.5, Modus 120 X or AMT Black X100 (if there is such a thing) 8, 9 and PW irons then butt trim and install in the 50 / 54 / 58, correct?  Thanks so much.  And appreciate all of the other posts on WRX.  

I also switch wedge sets too.  I sometimes use a 48 / 52 / 58.   Sometimes I use 50 / 56 / 60 as well.  Would 8 iron be for 48 - 52,  9 iron for 54 - 56 and PW for 58* and higher?

Most bags ive made with spinner shafts uses the same #8 iron for GW, SW and LW, and they are 1 full flex stronger than irons, no tip trim. The reason for tip trimming is explained on page 1, but we only do that when we dont have other options to go stronger. If we for some reason wants to lower ball flight MORE than a full flex stronger #8, we can use a #9 for SW and a PW for LW, and if no PW shaft exist like for Dynamic Gold, the LW would then be a tip trimmed #9.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Bigt44]

Thanks Howard.  Just to be clear - if I'm using a Nippon 120 stiff set, I buy three 8 iron Nippon 120 X shafts and butt cut them and put in GW, SW and LW.  

At that point, if the flight of the SW and LW is still too high, I can put a 9 iron Nippon 120 X in the SW and a PW Nippon 120 X in the LW, both butt cut only (not tipped) to length?

[Howard_Jones]

58 minutes ago, Bigt44 said:

Thanks Howard.  Just to be clear - if I'm using a Nippon 120 stiff set, I buy three 8 iron Nippon 120 X shafts and butt cut them and put in GW, SW and LW.  

At that point, if the flight of the SW and LW is still too high, I can put a 9 iron Nippon 120 X in the SW and a PW Nippon 120 X in the LW, both butt cut only (not tipped) to length?

Yes you got it 100% right, just like this small chart above shows it.