Sergio Garcia Ruling Error

[LeoLeo99]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

The referee knew the rule but wasn't aware of all the information.

Did the referee attempt to gather all the information?  

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

 

I thought it was made clear to the RO. At one point I heard Sergio say that his search did not begin until he got on the other side of the creek and the RO admit that would be different regarding the start time for the search. Given the RO's statement that the result would be different he asked the RO if that meant he could play the ball but the RO indicated nope no dice. I am sure this was true because from the RO's perspective at that point he would have no idea as to how much additional time should be allotted even if he did make a mistake as to the start time. This was just plain and simple a bad call by the RO IMO.

 

The statement from the PGA Tour clearly states that "the referee was not aware that SG was not searching for the ball ..."  But reality on the ground could well have been different. 

 

dave

[Notashank]

The PGA tour statement said the rules official made a mistake. Therefore the rules official is to blame. If it was me I would feel the same way Sergio did. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Notashank said:

The PGA tour statement said the rules official made a mistake. Therefore the rules official is to blame. If it was me I would feel the same way Sergio did. 

Would you behave the way he did too?  I would hope that I'd do better.

[DaveLeeNC]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Would you behave the way he did too?  I would hope that I'd do better.

 

And you might well have gotten a different outcome as well. dave

[Dpavs]

4 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

The statement from the PGA Tour clearly states that "the referee was not aware that SG was not searching for the ball ..."  But reality on the ground could well have been different. 

 

dave

 

I was going by the audio I heard on the video clip I watched.. the PGA can say what they want I suppose but I think the audio makes pretty clear as to what was exchanged between the two.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Dpavs

[Dpavs]

29 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Would you behave the way he did too?  I would hope that I'd do better.

 

Sergio is a very emotional guy no doubt and generally I am not a fan at all of his conduct but in this instance... what did he really do that was that bad prior to the RO pretty much saying tough beans I'm not changing my ruling?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Dpavs

[MisterT]

Sergio showed the same petulance that he has shown most of his career. Chronological age does not equate to maturity and that is often on display with regard to rulings and how life is unfair to him. While this specific ruling turned out to be in error, his response was an overreaction and, once again, childish in his "I don't like it so I will take my ball and go home" response. Count me among those who say, Adios!

[DaveLeeNC]

4 hours ago, Dpavs said:

 

I was going by the audio I heard on the video clip I watched.. the PGA can say what they want I suppose but I think the audio makes pretty clear as to what was exchanged between the two.

 

I will have to admit that, after watching the clip (thanks for including that) I have NO IDEA what the basis for (apparently) forcing SG to treat the ball as lost in a PA is. It sounds like the RO made the 'ruling' and then discussed it with SG and, since the ruling had been made, it could not be changed. Is that what happened? Or was that a second error made by the RO (where maybe it could have been changed at that point).

 

dave

Edited May 8, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Dpavs]

11 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I will have to admit that, after watching the clip (thanks for including that) I have NO IDEA what the basis for (apparently) forcing SG to treat the ball as lost in a PA is. It sounds like the RO made the 'ruling' and then discussed it with SG and, since the ruling had been made, it could not be changed. Is that what happened? Or was that a second error made by the RO (where maybe it could have been changed at that point).

 

dave

 

Hard to say... but my guess is that since he started the clock at the wrong time he had no reference point to know whether the search was concluded in time or not... though he likely could have made an educated guess which may have allowed the ball to be played but he chose not to. Or to put it another way.. he probably let his desire to adhere hard and fast to the rule obscure what might have been an exercise of good judgement.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Dpavs

[rogolf]

I always thought the PGATour officials would allow a second opinion, certainly our national association does.  After the first referee gives the ruling and the player's eyes/actions tell the referee that the player doesn't agree and/or is confused, we will even ask the player if he would like a second opinion.

However, it may be that the Tour and TV don't like any delays to be created and have said that the first official's ruling is final?

The player could try to proceed playing two balls in spite of the referee's ruling, but that could result in an unreasonable delay penalty.

[Notashank]

The tour was wrong. When you mess with a man’s money they pretty much can react the way they want. No different than when a baseball manager argues a call. Sergio  had every right to act how he wants.  

[huskydawg]

Could Sergio bring his own timer and show the official his accounting of the search?

[antip]

57 minutes ago, huskydawg said:

Could Sergio bring his own timer and show the official his accounting of the search?

Yes. But these entitled creatures don't seem to think it is their responsibility.

[denkea]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:02 PM, T2WIN said:

we all have said some stupid things when we were mad

Sure.  But that is no excuse for what we said.  

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/7/2022 at 10:03 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I believe that this is the relevant rule (and I need to burn my Player's Edition of the rules - it is so incomplete). dave

 

 

This isn't necessarily the same as what the Tour allows.

 

Maybe they don't anymore, but I've seen instances in the past (including Tour events) where a player or FC could ask for another ruling from presumably the next person up (whatever his or her designation was).  

[rogolf]

24 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

This isn't necessarily the same as what the Tour allows.

 

Maybe they don't anymore, but I've seen instances in the past (including Tour events) where a player or FC could ask for another ruling from presumably the next person up (whatever his or her designation was).  

Second opinions usually come from another referee (ie, same stature).

[szaino]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:03 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by szaino
dup

[szaino]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:03 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I believe that this is the relevant rule (and I need to burn my Player's Edition of the rules - it is so incomplete). dave

 

 

 

I don't believe that a referee was asked for a ruling by a player. Garcia had his own 3 minute clock running and found the ball within 3 minutes.  If no one asked for a ruling, why is a referee getting involved? 

 

I don't want golf to turn into a situation where referees are sitting on every hole next to every player watching every lift clean and place as well as timing every shot for speed of play etc etc.  

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

 

I don't believe that a referee was asked for a ruling by a player. Garcia had his own 3 minute clock running and found the ball within 3 minutes.  If no one asked for a ruling, why is a referee getting involved? 

 

I don't want golf to turn into a situation where referees are sitting on every hole next to every player watching every lift clean and place as well as timing every shot for speed of play etc etc.  

One of the functions of a referee is to prevent Rules breaches whenever possible.  If seen by a referee, searches are generally timed by the referee in order to prevent a player from playing a wrong ball, ie, a ball that is "lost", having been searched for for three minutes.  The timing becomes a "fact" of the situation.

Very seldom do players actually time any search they are involved in.  As a referee, I've timed many searches and had to call off the search at the end of the permitted time.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, szaino said:

Garcia had his own 3 minute clock running and found the ball within 3 minutes. 

This is the first I've read of this.  Its possible that Sergio found his ball fairly quickly after finding his way across the "river", but I'd be astounded if he actually timed it himself.  Much like at your local club, lots of players would search for 10 minutes if they thought they might find their ball.   As @rogolf says, on-course officials are generally the ones with a stopwatch of some kind.  

Edited May 9, 2022 by davep043

[DaveLeeNC]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Very seldom do players actually time any search they are involved in.  As a referee, I've timed many searches and had to call off the search at the end of the permitted time.

 

@rogolf Assume that you had timed a player looking for a ball and the player  found it after  your 3 minute timer had expired. Then you 'ruled' that the ball was lost, and then the player further explained something that led you to believe that you had started your timer too early? What would you do in this situation?  This seems to be roughly what happened here and the outcome seemed to be that the 'ruling' could not be changed  (that is the best that I can determine). 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

[rogolf]

42 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

@rogolf Assume that you had timed a player looking for a ball and the player  found it after  your 3 minute timer had expired. Then you 'ruled' that the ball was lost, and then the player further explained something that led you to believe that you had started your timer too early? What would you do in this situation?  This seems to be roughly what happened here and the outcome seemed to be that the 'ruling' could not be changed  (that is the best that I can determine). 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

If there was more evidence - from other players, spectators etc, that collaborated the player's explanation, and he had not taken any further action (such as making a stroke at a ball), then I would consider that evidence and perhaps change my ruling.  Rulings can be changed, but there are time limits to do that. 

See section 6C in Committee Procedures in the Official Guide.

A referee's mantra is to "get it right".  We're all capable of making mistakes and have made them - we also have the benefit of time, our radio, thick skin and humility.

As I said in an earlier post, our national association instructs its referees to allow (even offer) a second opinion.

[DaveLeeNC]

@rogolf Thanks for the prompt and clear response. dave

 

[szaino]

6 hours ago, davep043 said:

This is the first I've read of this.  Its possible that Sergio found his ball fairly quickly after finding his way across the "river", but I'd be astounded if he actually timed it himself.  Much like at your local club, lots of players would search for 10 minutes if they thought they might find their ball.   As @rogolf says, on-course officials are generally the ones with a stopwatch of some kind.  

 

I was not referring to Sergio's clock in a literal sense (although he may have timed it. )  Like you said, he probably found the ball pretty quickly.  

 

I was watching on TV and  heard Sergio saying - ( I am paraphrasing) why did you start the clock over there ? I wasn't looking for the ball over there, I had to cross the river and look for the ball over here, I knew the ball was over here. The official said that he started the clock when he entered the hazard before crossing the river or looking for the ball. And then the crazy thing is the official replied that "if you are saying that you didn't start looking for the ball until you got over there then that is different. " 

 

So I don't know why this wasn't resolved properly.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

Refereeing is always easiest after the round...

[dan360]

A big flaw in the system when someone’s pure incompetence causes players to lose strokes via no fault of their own.  

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, dan360 said:

causes players to lose strokes via no fault of their own.  

Let's be clear, Sergio hit the ball way wide of the fairway, by a quick Google Earth measurement he was at least 40 yards from the center of the fairway.  Nobody has ever said that he had a lie he could hit from over there, he may have needed to take relief anyway, and lost exactly nothing.  Or he may have tried to play it, and made 9.  

11 minutes ago, dan360 said:

pure incompetence

Dead wrong.  Perhaps stubbornness, in not trying to get additional information, but the official was doing his job, timing a search, starting from the time he saw Sergio wandering around with his head down.  

[bladehunter]

On 5/9/2022 at 3:39 PM, szaino said:

 

 

I don't believe that a referee was asked for a ruling by a player. Garcia had his own 3 minute clock running and found the ball within 3 minutes.  If no one asked for a ruling, why is a referee getting involved? 

 

I don't want golf to turn into a situation where referees are sitting on every hole next to every player watching every lift clean and place as well as timing every shot for speed of play etc etc.  

best post here.   Why indeed was he involved ? 
 

his job is to make sure a breach  of the rules  doesn’t  occur.  But that’s not what happened here.  Instead he inserted himself and awarded a penalty where no breach  had happened.  
 

You’d think on a “ preemptive strike “ type call like this would include either a well heeled referee , or one that automatically called for a second opinion to check himself.  This wasn’t a player who needed help.  And I guess ironically he received no help.  Lol. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by bladehunter

[jimbo123]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

best post here.   Why indeed was he involved ? 
 

his job is to make sure a breach  of the rules  doesn’t  occur.  But that’s not what happened here.  Instead he inserted himself and awarded a penalty where no breach  had happened.  
 

You’d think on a “ preemptive strike “ type call like this would include either a well heeled referee , or one that automatically called for a second opinion to check himself.  This wasn’t a player who needed help.  And I guess ironically he received no help.  Lol. 

 

The referee was attempting to avoid a penalty, not apply one.  If he had been correct on the timing, and SG had played his ball, he would have incurred a wrong ball penalty and still need to take penalty area relief.   

 

It wasn't a pre-emptive strike, but of course the fact that he got the timing wrong muddies the whole appearance of it.