Is the Golf Boom Over?

[rd1959]

1 hour ago, Tanner25 said:

 

 

All I hear is about this economic downturn. But, as a recruiter, people have so many job options and behave poorly (they miss interviews, leave a job after a day or two). I guess it hasn't trickled down to employees yet or is this day coming soon?

Yes, it's true a lot of people don't want to actually work but, the recruiters play a part in this too. I've been unemployed a couple of times in the not too distant past and I've discovered that most recruiters aren't interested in finding jobs for people, especially older applicants. Instead of talking to an actual person they just check boxes on their particular algorithm. Never mind that the older applicant has years of experience in whatever field the job is in and an excellent attendance record. Just because they don't have a college degree or some other silly thing they are automatically dismissed from consideration. 

[BIG STU]

6 hours ago, rd1959 said:

Yes, it's true a lot of people don't want to actually work but, the recruiters play a part in this too. I've been unemployed a couple of times in the not too distant past and I've discovered that most recruiters aren't interested in finding jobs for people, especially older applicants. Instead of talking to an actual person they just check boxes on their particular algorithm. Never mind that the older applicant has years of experience in whatever field the job is in and an excellent attendance record. Just because they don't have a college degree or some other silly thing they are automatically dismissed from consideration. 

A lot of it depends on the profession too--- Most of my life on and off I have been a Truck Driver. Kept a good work record and clean driving record. Two years ago I was semi retired and had a work related accident breaking my back and shouder plus a concussion. Now they have determined I have permanant nerve damage in my back. They pulled my medical certificate about a year or so now. With my nerve damage I can not be called upon to safely control a commercial vehicle. Like I told the lady at the hearing I have a spotless safety record with around 2 million safe driving miles and I do not trust myself now in a commercial vehicle. I can control a automatic car safely in fact had to do a driving test but kept my regular license. I am still listed on the books as having a Class A CDL but inactive plus I am on full disability.

I still get recruitment letters in the mail everyday companies wanting to hire me. I know a bunch of dump truck operators around here and if I see one they will ask "are you ready to get back in a truck again?" Like I said it all depends on the profession

[Warrior42111]

14 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

 

 

All I hear is about this economic downturn. But, as a recruiter, people have so many job options and behave poorly (they miss interviews, leave a job after a day or two). I guess it hasn't trickled down to employees yet or is this day coming soon?

I see it more of an evening out. The world, the US in particular pumped out a crazy amount of cash the last few years, there's repercussions to that.

 

There are good employers and bad employers, good employees and bad employees. In my area and in particular field we as employees are doing well, there's many good companies competing against another so it forces them to make sure pay / benefits are on par. The job openings I see a lot of, not all, are full time positions (~40 hr) in what's considered unskilled labor but it's full time and not enough money for someone to live on.

 

Golf tends to be more of a mid / high income activity so while I think it will slow down some it won't be as quick or bad as some fear.

 

I leave you all with an FDR quote

 

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, Warrior42111 said:

I see it more of an evening out. The world, the US in particular pumped out a crazy amount of cash the last few years, there's repercussions to that.

 

There are good employers and bad employers, good employees and bad employees. In my area and in particular field we as employees are doing well, there's many good companies competing against another so it forces them to make sure pay / benefits are on par. The job openings I see a lot of, not all, are full time positions (~40 hr) in what's considered unskilled labor but it's full time and not enough money for someone to live on.

 

Golf tends to be more of a mid / high income activity so while I think it will slow down some it won't be as quick or bad as some fear.

 

I leave you all with an FDR quote

 

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

Great quote from Mr Roosevelt-and the truth--- Some of these companies and owners are getting exactly what they deserve these days from past treatment of employees

[ChipDriver]

IMO I see what you see.  I live in the DC area - and I think the boom in golf was due to Covid.   All the "bad things about golf" that caused its decline among the young generation now became "cool" during Covid.   Instead of staying at home in your room without friends or contact - now go play an old man's game - outside, with friends, for 4-6+ hours?   As the kids say "let's f'ing go!".   LOL   Private clubs in the DC area which were starving for members or were "pay now/play now" are suddenly at full capacity and even starting waiting lists.  Harder to get rounds at public courses too.   Is that a boom?  Perhaps - but I am going to doubt that it will remain.  Once things get back to normal for society - I think that golf will recede again.  People don't change THAT much.  🙂   Once the activities that attracted younger people's time are again normalized - they will probably recede back towards the original norm.

 

Worse - the big bad wolf is the US economy IMO.  It is severely challenged, worst it's been in 40 years.   That means that your money buys less....and that's assuming you still have a job that pays well.   In order to maintain income you have to work more (assuming you can find another job); and that also assumes you have time.   Golf takes a long time to play.

 

My prediction is that the economy will win.  Golf and joining golf clubs - will be like gym memberships to the older generation.  Spend a boatload of money with good intentions - that just never become the priority when given other opportunities to spend your time.

 

I've enjoyed the boon - the dues taken in by the boon - have paid for improvements without a rise in dues.  🙂  Now you kids - get off my lawn.  🙂 

[ChipDriver]

.

Edited July 19, 2022 by ChipDriver

[rd1959]

7 hours ago, BIG STU said:

A lot of it depends on the profession too--- Most of my life on and off I have been a Truck Driver. Kept a good work record and clean driving record. Two years ago I was semi retired and had a work related accident breaking my back and shouder plus a concussion. Now they have determined I have permanant nerve damage in my back. They pulled my medical certificate about a year or so now. With my nerve damage I can not be called upon to safely control a commercial vehicle. Like I told the lady at the hearing I have a spotless safety record with around 2 million safe driving miles and I do not trust myself now in a commercial vehicle. I can control a automatic car safely in fact had to do a driving test but kept my regular license. I am still listed on the books as having a Class A CDL but inactive plus I am on full disability.

I still get recruitment letters in the mail everyday companies wanting to hire me. I know a bunch of dump truck operators around here and if I see one they will ask "are you ready to get back in a truck again?" Like I said it all depends on the profession

I was a forklift operator for 42 years which is considered a skill position. I had to quit work to be a full time care giver for my father from 2008-2011. After his death I started to look for work again. Even with all the classifieds saying "now hiring forklift operators" it took until September 2013 to even be contacted about a position. I worked at that company until I retired at the end of 2021. For eight years I got to see both sides and neither side was doing a good job. That was the main reason I decided to take early retirement. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by rd1959

[golfortennis]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:21 AM, larrybud said:

I'm always amazed at the young'ins I work with who make less than half of what I do, driving a car which cost 4x what mine does. Zero financial acumen. They look at what something "costs per month" instead of what something costs.

 

I worked at a bank over a decade ago, and when it came to car loans and mortgages, that is what we were trained to use for selling.  "People don't care about the full price, they really just care what it costs per month, so use that."

 

I was in hot water many times for giving financial advice, as opposed to "beneficial to the bank financial advice."  

[Tanner25]

5 hours ago, rd1959 said:

I was a forklift operator for 42 years which is considered a skill position. I had to quit work to be a full time care giver for my father from 2008-2011. After his death I started to look for work again. Even with all the classifieds saying "now hiring forklift operators" it took until September 2013 to even be contacted about a position. I worked at that company until I retired at the end of 2021. For eight years I got to see both sides and neither side was doing a good job. That was the main reason I decided to take early retirement. 

 

Thanks, for sharing. Employers are very cruel to workers with an employment gap. Even when it makes sense in your case, having a good personal reason. As I said, candidates are misbehaving now. I call it a Covid effect. People do not have the courtesy any longer on either side of the hiring table to communicate honestly and fairly. Offshore IT workers are a whole other story. They have a lot of "family emergencies" and need to walk off a job.

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

I worked at a bank over a decade ago, and when it came to car loans and mortgages, that is what we were trained to use for selling.  "People don't care about the full price, they really just care what it costs per month, so use that."

 

I was in hot water many times for giving financial advice, as opposed to "beneficial to the bank financial advice."  

Yep but I bet you can look at yourself in the mirror shaving every morning without any remorse either

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Yep but I bet you can look at yourself in the mirror shaving every morning without any remorse either

 

Right, if only I shaved....  🤣

 

Someone had come into some money, and my advice was to pay off their mortgage with it.  I got crap because I didn't convince them to put it into an investment and use the income there to make their mortgage payment.  That was my last straw.  There are situations where that strategy makes sense, but this wasn't it.  

 

Although I sure hope I'm not coming off as trying to paint myself as a saint.  I'm far from it.  But this was one thing I just couldn't stomach.  

[rd1959]

2 hours ago, Tanner25 said:

 

Thanks, for sharing. Employers are very cruel to workers with an employment gap. Even when it makes sense in your case, having a good personal reason. As I said, candidates are misbehaving now. I call it a Covid effect. People do not have the courtesy any longer on either side of the hiring table to communicate honestly and fairly. Offshore IT workers are a whole other story. They have a lot of "family emergencies" and need to walk off a job.

I agree completely about lazy, entitled, candidates. I was at that company for a little over 8 years and the quality of the people they hired after me was atrocious. They were there just to collect a paycheck while a core group of 8 people out of 16 kept the place running. 
 I'm 63 now. Remembering back to the way things were in the 70s, 95% of workers today would've been fired the first day or not hired at all because back then, you actually had to talk to the person doing the hiring and sometimes talk with the head guy. Back then companies didn't just hire anybody and hope they would be right. They made sure they got the right people from the get go.

[bobfoster]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:39 PM, rd1959 said:

Yes, it's true a lot of people don't want to actually work but, the recruiters play a part in this too. I've been unemployed a couple of times in the not too distant past and I've discovered that most recruiters aren't interested in finding jobs for people, especially older applicants. Instead of talking to an actual person they just check boxes on their particular algorithm. Never mind that the older applicant has years of experience in whatever field the job is in and an excellent attendance record. Just because they don't have a college degree or some other silly thing they are automatically dismissed from consideration. 

What field/profession are you in?

[rd1959]

1 hour ago, bobfoster said:

What field/profession are you in?

I worked in warehousing as a forklift operator. Yes, it sounds like easy work, but it isn't. Apart from the physical aspect, it also takes a good amount of intelligence to perform the work. It becomes a problem when corporate executives, human resources departments, and temp services think they can just place any idiot into that job. The last company I worked for started using a temp agency for new hires and they were sending people in that had no warehouse experience and no forklift experience. They even sent a few that were afraid of heights knowing full well the job required working at heights up to 24 ft.

 Fortunately, I was close to being able to take early retirement and I took it. I'd had enough. Sorry, but when I start talking about this stuff, I get worked up a little bit. Needless to say, I don't have good opinions of corporate execs, human resource departments, or temp agencies.

[BIG STU]

9 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Right, if only I shaved....  🤣

 

Someone had come into some money, and my advice was to pay off their mortgage with it.  I got crap because I didn't convince them to put it into an investment and use the income there to make their mortgage payment.  That was my last straw.  There are situations where that strategy makes sense, but this wasn't it.  

 

Although I sure hope I'm not coming off as trying to paint myself as a saint.  I'm far from it.  But this was one thing I just couldn't stomach.  

None of us are saints---- But from your posts I feel you are a honest and practical person

[BIG STU]

8 hours ago, rd1959 said:

I worked in warehousing as a forklift operator. Yes, it sounds like easy work, but it isn't. Apart from the physical aspect, it also takes a good amount of intelligence to perform the work. It becomes a problem when corporate executives, human resources departments, and temp services think they can just place any idiot into that job. The last company I worked for started using a temp agency for new hires and they were sending people in that had no warehouse experience and no forklift experience. They even sent a few that were afraid of heights knowing full well the job required working at heights up to 24 ft.

 Fortunately, I was close to being able to take early retirement and I took it. I'd had enough. Sorry, but when I start talking about this stuff, I get worked up a little bit. Needless to say, I don't have good opinions of corporate execs, human resource departments, or temp agencies.

Yep good forklift operators are hard to find. Like truck drivers you can find seat warmers.

[Warrior42111]

14 hours ago, rd1959 said:

I agree completely about lazy, entitled, candidates. I was at that company for a little over 8 years and the quality of the people they hired after me was atrocious. They were there just to collect a paycheck while a core group of 8 people out of 16 kept the place running. 
 I'm 63 now. Remembering back to the way things were in the 70s, 95% of workers today would've been fired the first day or not hired at all because back then, you actually had to talk to the person doing the hiring and sometimes talk with the head guy. Back then companies didn't just hire anybody and hope they would be right. They made sure they got the right people from the get go.

Interesting, of course every company is different, but I've seen the opposite in the engineer field at a few places. Many just want to hire the new grad or someone they think will be a yes man they can keep for a couple years and run dry then start the cycle with another new grad. Absolutely, infuriating for the senior engineers who have to retrain people this often because the company wants to keep overhead low and just cycle new hires.

 

I do agree that HR is questionable at best most times. I've had many 'spirited' discussion when hiring for the team I happen to run for an engineering standpoint, not managerial. Just because you check all the boxes doesn't mean you fit in with team dynamics, chemistry etc. 

[rd1959]

delete

Edited July 20, 2022 by rd1959

[3puttpaul]

Haven't seen it around here. Still just as much of a pain to get a good tee time as it was a year ago

[Bad9]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:47 AM, ChipDriver said:

 - and I think the boom in golf was due to Covid.  

 

This is certainly true here. Keep in mind this is a 9 hole course in a community of 8,000, in sub artic Canada. In 2019 we were close to closing shop as we need at least 100 members to keep going, not much in the way of greens fee paying traffic. Mostly middle aged + guys, few young adults and very few juniors.

 

2019-112 members

2020-239

2021-232

2022-176

One of the executive members thinks fixing up the club house (with 99% government COVID program grants BTW) was responsible for the growth in 2020-21🙄.

 

A similar pattern happened in the Annapolis Valley in Nova Scotia, 2 of the 6 courses within an hour of my sons place were on the verge of closing in 2019 and I think they all now have wait lists for memberships.

[bobfoster]

22 hours ago, rd1959 said:

I worked in warehousing as a forklift operator. Yes, it sounds like easy work, but it isn't. Apart from the physical aspect, it also takes a good amount of intelligence to perform the work. It becomes a problem when corporate executives, human resources departments, and temp services think they can just place any idiot into that job. The last company I worked for started using a temp agency for new hires and they were sending people in that had no warehouse experience and no forklift experience. They even sent a few that were afraid of heights knowing full well the job required working at heights up to 24 ft.

 Fortunately, I was close to being able to take early retirement and I took it. I'd had enough. Sorry, but when I start talking about this stuff, I get worked up a little bit. Needless to say, I don't have good opinions of corporate execs, human resource departments, or temp agencies.

I truly hate to hear this, and prolly can't change your mind, but just let me offer a perspective? I'm one of those corporate execs - run a medium sized business with a partner (we just celebrated our 20th anniversary). Not tiny, but certainly not a Fortune 500 (I have a few hundred employees). When people think of "business", they usually think of huge companies with cold, bottom-line-only executives, and massive impersonal HR departments governed solely by numbers and policies, who look at people rather like any interchangeable widget on an assembly line. 

 

In truth, close to  99% of incorporated business is the US are "SMBs" (as the labor stats term is - "small-medium sized businesses). Close to half of GNP is produced by them - not Amazon or WalMart, but the tens of thousands of local 7-11s, auto mechanics, accounting firms, restaurants, etc., etc. I'm involved in a lot of business groups, and know a lot of SMB business owners, and - with some rare exceptions - most of them really give a crap about their employees. I know I do. I have people that have been with me for 10 or 15 years. Have watched their kids grow from grade school through college (in fact, am proud to be a godfather to the kids of several employees). I do have really good managers, but every employee has my personal email and direct cell number and that of my partner. We "run flat", no hierarchy. If my secretary thinks I'm doing something stupid, she tells me she thinks I'm doing something stupid. She doesn't ever get crap when she pushes against me, she gets crap when she should have and didn't. 

 

And my partner and I have established this as a corporate culture. We hire and cultivate amazing people. I want to be told things I wasn't seeing, new technologies, new changes in markets. I genuinely value employees that not only tell me I'm being an idiot, but tell me specifically why. 

 

And my folks get really solid wages, and my partner and I have made sure not only they get good benefits, but their families do too. As a result I have insane retention rates.

 

But I'm not just talking about me - a lot of SMBs do this. Have a good friend who runs a regional printing company. Does great work (I use him for conference materials), maybe a couple dozen employees. Just a great guy that bends over backwards for his clients (he was almost late one time on my order, because a supplier of his was late, and the dude actually got my materials at the last minute, and personally flew them to my Florida conference). Anyway, he had a long term employee who's daughter needed cancer treatments that far exceeded their insurance. He paid it out of his own freaking pocket. She's alive. And that so impressed me that he gets 100% of my printing business now. 

 

What really bums me out is hearing how executives are framed in the press. Hearing how you were treated. Just ain't right. Hearing how multinationals just chew people up and spit them out. But the media gives a very distorted view of how a lot of business is done in this country. I'm quite successful because I don't hire widgets, I hire whole human beings with families and lives. (In fact, the kids of three of my long time employees are actually doing their college internships with me this summer - I am working them to the bone, but they will be ready, and in high demand when they graduate). 

 

Point is? All you read about in the WSJ or NYT is the Bezos's of the world, where every movement is tracked, and people are apparently pissing in cans on a factory floor. And I get there is some of that. But there is also a lot of American businessman and businesswomen - and very successful ones - that succeed because they truly do care about and value their people, support them, and try to find and encourage talents and abilities in them that they may not even know they had. 

 

In the 2008 - 2009 market crash (I do financial services consulting) my partner and I both cut our salaries to zero, to keep my people employed. We got through it. During these Coved years, a bit of a financial hit, and my senior managers and I voluntarily took cuts, but (I'm proud to say) I laid no one off. We got through it together, and in fact are now growing again. 

 

Perhaps I'm bragging a bit here, but it is because I am proud to be a successful American capitalist that has not succeeded because I'm a cold bastxxx that treats people like you have been treated, but rather because I treat my people as my most valuable assets, know their names and the names of their spouses and kids, and they know I've got their backs even through hard times.

 

But I am not that unusual. Any local business you walk into, chances are good that this is the attitude of the SMB owners. Your local hairdresser. Gym. Tire repair shop. I cooked dinner tonight for a good friend who ran a local restaurant, that she is just relaunching (we were experimenting with new recipes in my kitchen). She took out a freaking second mortgage on her house to keep her people at half salary during the Covid shutdown. 

 

So - I'm on a roll - and totally OT - but want to say to my friends here, hope you all appreciate the guys in the trenches (like @rd1595 that I'm responding to - that drove a forklift). The truckers and longshoremen operating in almost insane conditions. The guys on cargo ships stuck (sometimes without even food) offshore at ports. The retail workers, grossly understaffed trying to explain to customers why shelves are empty. The airline workers - everyone from the pilots to the baggage handlers, all of whom are working way more hours than they probably should - to keep our economy moving. 

 

America is emerging from the pandemic, not because of the government, but in spite of it. It is emerging because of the will and the drive of SMBs are working 10, 12, 16 hours days. 

 

I'm insanely optimistic, because? Superior attitude, superior state of mind:

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by bobfoster

[rd1959]

1 hour ago, bobfoster said:

I truly hate to hear this, and prolly can't change your mind, but just let me offer a perspective? I'm one of those corporate execs - run a medium sized business with a partner (we just celebrated our 20th anniversary). Not tiny, but certainly not a Fortune 500 (I have a few hundred employees). When people think of "business", they usually think of huge companies with cold, bottom-line-only executives, and massive impersonal HR departments governed solely by numbers and policies, who look at people rather like any interchangeable widget on an assembly line. 

 

In truth, close to  99% of incorporated business is the US are "SMBs" (as the labor stats term is - "small-medium sized businesses). Close to half of GNP is produced by them - not Amazon or WalMart, but the tens of thousands of local 7-11s, auto mechanics, accounting firms, restaurants, etc., etc. I'm involved in a lot of business groups, and know a lot of SMB business owners, and - with some rare exceptions - most of them really give a crap about their employees. I know I do. I have people that have been with me for 10 or 15 years. Have watched their kids grow from grade school through college (in fact, am proud to be a godfather to the kids of several employees). I do have really good managers, but every employee has my personal email and direct cell number and that of my partner. We "run flat", no hierarchy. If my secretary thinks I'm doing something stupid, she tells me she thinks I'm doing something stupid. She doesn't ever get crap when she pushes against me, she gets crap when she should have and didn't. 

 

And my partner and I have established this as a corporate culture. We hire and cultivate amazing people. I want to be told things I wasn't seeing, new technologies, new changes in markets. I genuinely value employees that not only tell me I'm being an idiot, but tell me specifically why. 

 

And my folks get really solid wages, and my partner and I have made sure not only they get good benefits, but their families do too. As a result I have insane retention rates.

 

But I'm not just talking about me - a lot of SMBs do this. Have a good friend who runs a regional printing company. Does great work (I use him for conference materials), maybe a couple dozen employees. Just a great guy that bends over backwards for his clients (he was almost late one time on my order, because a supplier of his was late, and the dude actually got my materials at the last minute, and personally flew them to my Florida conference). Anyway, he had a long term employee who's daughter needed cancer treatments that far exceeded their insurance. He paid it out of his own freaking pocket. She's alive. And that so impressed me that he gets 100% of my printing business now. 

 

What really bums me out is hearing how executives are framed in the press. Hearing how you were treated. Just ain't right. Hearing how multinationals just chew people up and spit them out. But the media gives a very distorted view of how a lot of business is done in this country. I'm quite successful because I don't hire widgets, I hire whole human beings with families and lives. (In fact, the kids of three of my long time employees are actually doing their college internships with me this summer - I am working them to the bone, but they will be ready, and in high demand when they graduate). 

 

Point is? All you read about in the WSJ or NYT is the Bezos's of the world, where every movement is tracked, and people are apparently pissing in cans on a factory floor. And I get there is some of that. But there is also a lot of American businessman and businesswomen - and very successful ones - that succeed because they truly do care about and value their people, support them, and try to find and encourage talents and abilities in them that they may not even know they had. 

 

In the 2008 - 2009 market crash (I do financial services consulting) my partner and I both cut our salaries to zero, to keep my people employed. We got through it. During these Coved years, a bit of a financial hit, and my senior managers and I voluntarily took cuts, but (I'm proud to say) I laid no one off. We got through it together, and in fact are now growing again. 

 

Perhaps I'm bragging a bit here, but it is because I am proud to be a successful American capitalist that has not succeeded because I'm a cold bastxxx that treats people like you have been treated, but rather because I treat my people as my most valuable assets, know their names and the names of their spouses and kids, and they know I've got their backs even through hard times.

 

But I am not that unusual. Any local business you walk into, chances are good that this is the attitude of the SMB owners. Your local hairdresser. Gym. Tire repair shop. I cooked dinner tonight for a good friend who ran a local restaurant, that she is just relaunching (we were experimenting with new recipes in my kitchen). She took out a freaking second mortgage on her house to keep her people at half salary during the Covid shutdown. 

 

So - I'm on a roll - and totally OT - but want to say to my friends here, hope you all appreciate the guys in the trenches (like @rd1595 that I'm responding to - that drove a forklift). The truckers and longshoremen operating in almost insane conditions. The guys on cargo ships stuck (sometimes without even food) offshore at ports. The retail workers, grossly understaffed trying to explain to customers why shelves are empty. The airline workers - everyone from the pilots to the baggage handlers, all of whom are working way more hours than they probably should - to keep our economy moving. 

 

America is emerging from the pandemic, not because of the government, but in spite of it. It is emerging because of the will and the drive of SMBs are working 10, 12, 16 hours days. 

 

I'm insanely optimistic, because? Superior attitude, superior state of mind:

 

 

 

 

The company I worked for is a world wide corporation headquartered in Austria. Part of the problem with the company was they were very liberal with their policies, which they didn't enforce in the first place. That alone gave employees incentive to do and get away with whatever they wanted. The HR department was really designed to run interference for the company whenever they wanted to fire somebody. It was all classic big corporation BS.
 The best company I worked for (back in the 70s-80s) was a small size business with about 60 employees total. Everybody pulled their weight, showed up almost every day, and management actually listened to the employees. We were all in it together. I would much rather work for a company like that than a big corporation that, when they said the word "teamwork" it was spoken through a sh!t eating grin. 

[rd1959]

16 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Yep good forklift operators are hard to find. Like truck drivers you can find seat warmers.

It probably wouldn't have bothered me too much if those "seat warmers" had not tried to kill me every other week. 😡 They were dangerous.

[bekgolf]

4 hours ago, bobfoster said:

I truly hate to hear this, and prolly can't change your mind, but just let me offer a perspective? I'm one of those corporate execs - run a medium sized business with a partner (we just celebrated our 20th anniversary). Not tiny, but certainly not a Fortune 500 (I have a few hundred employees). When people think of "business", they usually think of huge companies with cold, bottom-line-only executives, and massive impersonal HR departments governed solely by numbers and policies, who look at people rather like any interchangeable widget on an assembly line. 

 

In truth, close to  99% of incorporated business is the US are "SMBs" (as the labor stats term is - "small-medium sized businesses). Close to half of GNP is produced by them - not Amazon or WalMart, but the tens of thousands of local 7-11s, auto mechanics, accounting firms, restaurants, etc., etc. I'm involved in a lot of business groups, and know a lot of SMB business owners, and - with some rare exceptions - most of them really give a crap about their employees. I know I do. I have people that have been with me for 10 or 15 years. Have watched their kids grow from grade school through college (in fact, am proud to be a godfather to the kids of several employees). I do have really good managers, but every employee has my personal email and direct cell number and that of my partner. We "run flat", no hierarchy. If my secretary thinks I'm doing something stupid, she tells me she thinks I'm doing something stupid. She doesn't ever get crap when she pushes against me, she gets crap when she should have and didn't. 

 

And my partner and I have established this as a corporate culture. We hire and cultivate amazing people. I want to be told things I wasn't seeing, new technologies, new changes in markets. I genuinely value employees that not only tell me I'm being an idiot, but tell me specifically why. 

 

And my folks get really solid wages, and my partner and I have made sure not only they get good benefits, but their families do too. As a result I have insane retention rates.

 

But I'm not just talking about me - a lot of SMBs do this. Have a good friend who runs a regional printing company. Does great work (I use him for conference materials), maybe a couple dozen employees. Just a great guy that bends over backwards for his clients (he was almost late one time on my order, because a supplier of his was late, and the dude actually got my materials at the last minute, and personally flew them to my Florida conference). Anyway, he had a long term employee who's daughter needed cancer treatments that far exceeded their insurance. He paid it out of his own freaking pocket. She's alive. And that so impressed me that he gets 100% of my printing business now. 

 

What really bums me out is hearing how executives are framed in the press. Hearing how you were treated. Just ain't right. Hearing how multinationals just chew people up and spit them out. But the media gives a very distorted view of how a lot of business is done in this country. I'm quite successful because I don't hire widgets, I hire whole human beings with families and lives. (In fact, the kids of three of my long time employees are actually doing their college internships with me this summer - I am working them to the bone, but they will be ready, and in high demand when they graduate). 

 

Point is? All you read about in the WSJ or NYT is the Bezos's of the world, where every movement is tracked, and people are apparently pissing in cans on a factory floor. And I get there is some of that. But there is also a lot of American businessman and businesswomen - and very successful ones - that succeed because they truly do care about and value their people, support them, and try to find and encourage talents and abilities in them that they may not even know they had. 

 

In the 2008 - 2009 market crash (I do financial services consulting) my partner and I both cut our salaries to zero, to keep my people employed. We got through it. During these Coved years, a bit of a financial hit, and my senior managers and I voluntarily took cuts, but (I'm proud to say) I laid no one off. We got through it together, and in fact are now growing again. 

 

Perhaps I'm bragging a bit here, but it is because I am proud to be a successful American capitalist that has not succeeded because I'm a cold bastxxx that treats people like you have been treated, but rather because I treat my people as my most valuable assets, know their names and the names of their spouses and kids, and they know I've got their backs even through hard times.

 

But I am not that unusual. Any local business you walk into, chances are good that this is the attitude of the SMB owners. Your local hairdresser. Gym. Tire repair shop. I cooked dinner tonight for a good friend who ran a local restaurant, that she is just relaunching (we were experimenting with new recipes in my kitchen). She took out a freaking second mortgage on her house to keep her people at half salary during the Covid shutdown. 

 

So - I'm on a roll - and totally OT - but want to say to my friends here, hope you all appreciate the guys in the trenches (like @rd1595 that I'm responding to - that drove a forklift). The truckers and longshoremen operating in almost insane conditions. The guys on cargo ships stuck (sometimes without even food) offshore at ports. The retail workers, grossly understaffed trying to explain to customers why shelves are empty. The airline workers - everyone from the pilots to the baggage handlers, all of whom are working way more hours than they probably should - to keep our economy moving. 

 

America is emerging from the pandemic, not because of the government, but in spite of it. It is emerging because of the will and the drive of SMBs are working 10, 12, 16 hours days. 

 

I'm insanely optimistic, because? Superior attitude, superior state of mind:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited.  TLDR is that corporate likes to make hourly work OT.  Corporate thinks that power lunches are OT and don't realize why they are the only ones who like OT.

Edited July 21, 2022 by bekgolf

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:47 AM, ChipDriver said:

IMO I see what you see.  I live in the DC area - and I think the boom in golf was due to Covid.   All the "bad things about golf" that caused its decline among the young generation now became "cool" during Covid.   Instead of staying at home in your room without friends or contact - now go play an old man's game - outside, with friends, for 4-6+ hours?   As the kids say "let's f'ing go!".   LOL   Private clubs in the DC area which were starving for members or were "pay now/play now" are suddenly at full capacity and even starting waiting lists.  Harder to get rounds at public courses too.   Is that a boom?  Perhaps - but I am going to doubt that it will remain.  Once things get back to normal for society - I think that golf will recede again.  People don't change THAT much.  🙂   Once the activities that attracted younger people's time are again normalized - they will probably recede back towards the original norm.

 

Worse - the big bad wolf is the US economy IMO.  It is severely challenged, worst it's been in 40 years.   That means that your money buys less....and that's assuming you still have a job that pays well.   In order to maintain income you have to work more (assuming you can find another job); and that also assumes you have time.   Golf takes a long time to play.

 

My prediction is that the economy will win.  Golf and joining golf clubs - will be like gym memberships to the older generation.  Spend a boatload of money with good intentions - that just never become the priority when given other opportunities to spend your time.

 

I've enjoyed the boon - the dues taken in by the boon - have paid for improvements without a rise in dues.  🙂  Now you kids - get off my lawn.  🙂 

 

All this is true and well said.

 

The boom will certainly ebb. The one thing I'd add to what you've said is that I believe that the post-boom will reset at a higher level of interest in golf than before the boom. 

 

While a lot of people who found the game (or returned to it) in 2020-2021 will fade out, some will stay. 

 

So I think the overall level will be higher in 2023 than it was in 2019. 

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So I think the overall level will be higher in 2023 than it was in 2019. 

 

I would say that’s only possible if the economy and inflation are equal to 2019 by the end of 2023. I’m not optimistic.

 

”Dude, where’s my V recovery?”

[Mcgeeno]

Is the boom over?

 

Not where I live. Every course is packed almost every day.

[Curmudg3on]

Not where I live.   There was a full tee sheet on the course I played today starting at 6:28am!

[jonsnow]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:52 PM, Dallas said:

It's not slowing down here at all. Courses are full of people who would be better off spending more time at a driving range. Private initiation fees have gone through the roof and getting in a quick 9 at any public course is a thing of the past.

Dallas, where you from? Cleveland?

[jonsnow]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:54 AM, rd1959 said:

It probably wouldn't have bothered me too much if those "seat warmers" had not tried to kill me every other week. 😡 They were dangerous.

Operating forklifts in a warehouse sounds like a good way to get hurt badly to me from what I've seen. It's dangerous.