Is the Golf Boom Over?

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, ChipNRun said:

 

Two drags on pandemic players. Assistant pros are exiting the industry for more pay and fewer 80-hour weeks, which is putting a crimp on some of the Pan-Newbies being able to find lessons. And, access to golf clubs other than off-the-rack is still limited.

 

Plus, mid-June was a national heat wave. Add in wildfires as another interruption:  the primary danger of getting burned and secondary danger of smoky air.

 

All I know is this: When I want to play, tee sheets are usually full. When I can't play, sheets are more wide open. (I can get on, but not with bargain price for tee time.)

Most of the kids I knew in the 2 PGM schools we had here even pre pandemic did not stay in the business long. One of those schools shut down even pre pandemic. I think they still have the PGM program at CCU. Yep they get their business degree and move on to better paying jobs and in some cases better hours. A lot of them are never able to pass their PAT test either to get their PGAOA Class A but they still have some kind of business degree in Business Management

[BIG STU]

On 5/31/2022 at 9:23 AM, mursie said:

can you still flip equipment on ebay?  one of the big reasons I came to this forum was to find a "safer" place to buy/sell golf equipment and that was 10 years ago.  I tried to sell a cell phone on ebay 3 years ago... wound up with the item back on my doorstep, missing 1/2 the accessories I shipped, and a forced ebay refund to seller.  there is zero protection over there.

I quit messing with the bay a while back over stuff like that--- Now I will do business on occasion with a seller I "know" and have done business with before. Selling golf clubs on there is a nightmare especially classic stuff. Most of my classic stuff I sell now I do on one of my FB groups or do privately.

[golfer07840]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:53 AM, GolfTurkey said:

I’ve noticed gaps in tee sheets starting to open up plus it’s getting much harder for me to flip golf equipment on eBay.

 

Travel is back on, Inflation is outstripping wage growth, interest rates are rising…is the golf boom over?

 

Yes. 

 

The resort/courses I usually play at, attendance was down almost 40% compared to the last 2 years. 

 

I do believe inflation/gas/economics in general have something to do with it. All the rates in my area are UP. What used to be a 60$ greens fee is as high as $80 now. 

 

You memtioned travel is back. I think this is might be the biggest reason. 

 

All those guys/gals who took up golf to be outside and socially distant are now being told by their significant others "hey you had 2 years, I've been couped up, I want to go do things now". And presto, that spare time they had is now gone. 

[ChipNRun]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:10 PM, Snowman9000 said:

 

More likely, courses will close and be sold off for a more valuable use. 

😞

Alert to California residents. Some state legislators have proposed a bill to use eminent domain to take over public courses and turn them into affordable housing tracts. 

 

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I think they still have the PGM program at CCU.

 

Before I retired as a business professor, my wife and I went to Myrtle Beach, SC. While there, I talked to the director of the PGM program at Coastal Carolina (in Conway, one town to north). He seemed to be optimistic about the program, and students I talked to had paid internships and seemingly a vector to good jobs. But, at least school had dropped their program, and enrollments are down at several others.

 

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

A lot of them are never able to pass their PAT test either to get their PGAOA Class A ...

 

Tidbit of interest to WRXers: Most of the PGM students are not members of the varsity golf team. PGM prepares for club and instructor jobs, not the pro tour.

[mantan]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:57 AM, RoyalMustang said:

 

I am a COVID golfer who joined a course last winter, but I can play any evening while walking on and anytime on the weekends after 12pm.  Most of the members are old-timers and I don't think there has been a huge influx of new people.  

 

It is weird: my local course (not where I belong) has a $325 yearly range membership and I have never seen more than 4 people there practicing (rather than simply warming up for a round).  Even with Saturday morning, getting loose before a round types, it has never been more than a dozen.  

 

North Dallas burbs too!  Lots of people play golf in these parts 

 

Which course is that?  Decent ranges are getting harder and harder to come by. The one at the course by my house is usually beat to hell and sandy by late morning (too many range memberships sold).  The other nearby course uses mats 4-5 days a week. There were two great green grass ranges that closed in the last year. (Knew the owner of one.  He said the offer he got from the land was just too good to pass up.  He was near retirement age and the sale provided him a big nest egg.)

 

Highland Performance Golf and The Golf Ranch are both good green grass ranges. But both are usually packed.

[BIG STU]

10 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Alert to California residents. Some state legislators have proposed a bill to use eminent domain to take over public courses and turn them into affordable housing tracts. 

 

 

Before I retired as a business professor, my wife and I went to Myrtle Beach, SC. While there, I talked to the director of the PGM program at Coastal Carolina (in Conway, one town to north). He seemed to be optimistic about the program, and students I talked to had paid internships and seemingly a vector to good jobs. But, at least school had dropped their program, and enrollments are down at several others.

 

 

Tidbit of interest to WRXers: Most of the PGM students are not members of the varsity golf team. PGM prepares for club and instructor jobs, not the pro tour.

Thanks I did not think I had to say the difference between PGAOA and PGA Tour on WRX but you may be correct I guess I needed to clarify that. But they do have to pass their Playability Test (PAT) to obtain their Class A card. 

[larrybud]

11 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

I do believe inflation/gas/economics in general have something to do with it. All the rates in my area are UP. What used to be a 60$ greens fee is as high as $80 now. 

 

I played a course 50 miles away the other day. What used to cost $8 in gas cost $22. Pretty big percentage of the green's fee.

[BIG STU]

13 minutes ago, larrybud said:

I played a course 50 miles away the other day. What used to cost $8 in gas cost $22. Pretty big percentage of the green's fee.

Now we have been crowded in this resort area for the 4th. But according to local businesses people are not spending money eating out etc. The beaches were elbo room only until the storms hit. My course is semi private and we have had an influx this summer season on golf now .com because our walk in rates are the cheapest on the beach and so are our grill prices. Now our course is no way as pristine as the resort courses but the rates are affordable. But as SOP some people still complain expecting champaign conditions for beer prices

Edited July 5, 2022 by BIG STU

[samwm]

Is participation in golf a reflection of secular economic trends? That's the more interesting question to me. 

 

I think it's obvious that a percentage of the new, COVID-era players will drop off over time.

 

As we all know, golf's hard, and golf costs lots of money. So that in itself will lead to a participation crunch. And, given the state of the world, it seems obvious that the 'boom' is over.

 

 

On 6/9/2022 at 7:30 AM, RoyalMustang said:

yes, but the average income there has to be above $87k, no?  I know, you can't get much for less than $1.8M there; my brother has the same issue in the Bay Area.  It sucks everywhere.  

 

Canada says: hold my beer, eh?

 

 

[RichieHunt]

15 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Most of the kids I knew in the 2 PGM schools we had here even pre pandemic did not stay in the business long. One of those schools shut down even pre pandemic. I think they still have the PGM program at CCU. Yep they get their business degree and move on to better paying jobs and in some cases better hours. A lot of them are never able to pass their PAT test either to get their PGAOA Class A but they still have some kind of business degree in Business Management

 

When I went to CCU in the 90's I think there was between 150-200 people in the PGM program.  It was a 5 year program where the students would take 4 years of business/marketing courses and get a business/market degree.  Then they'd take 1 year of a couple of extra golf related courses combined with an intership at a local course.

 

My old roommate was one of the first people to graduate from the program and I think he was the first to graduate in 4 years.  He was super dedicated and graduated with a near 4.0 GPA.  He then worked as an assistant fora couple of years and then wnet to Florida to be the head pro, but was getting paid peanuts.  He then quit the industry and became an attorney.

 

When I was there, about 1/3rd of the PGM students could pass the PAT.  Some were quite good like my old roommate (one summer he cleaned my clock playing for money all summer long).  The other 2/3rds were lucky to break 85 and just weren't going to pass the PAT.  I would often be surprised seeing guys around school almost every day and then finding out that they were in the PGM program because I had never seen them on  the eh course or even touching a club.

 

These days I've heard that they have less than 30 students in the program.  Heard the same thing about Campbell as well.  The industry is oversaturated and the golf courses treat the assistants like indentured servants and have done it for too long.  There's virtually zero benefit to becoming a PGA Class A professional.  Golf couses only care if you are willing to work ridiculous hours and not put up a fuss and are accountable.  If you want to be the head pro or director of golf, the courses only care about whether you can manage the position.  And golf instruction is more about the people one can draw in to get lessons.  

 

My guess is that the boom will be over come 2023.  Too many jobs are now calling for employees to come back to the office either full time or part time.  That's going to continue for a while because the cost to transition to fully remote work for your labor force is too great and these companies are also fearful of being under water on their building lease.

 

And obviously the economy is a major problem as well.  I don't think there's going to be a 2008 crash because that was so widespread for different reasons.  But there's going to be a crash IMO.  And in some areas of the country (i.e. Boise, Tampa, Nashville) I think it's going to crash really hard, if not even worse than it did in 2008.

 

I think what has been miseed out on the housing market in particular is that there was much more 'investment' buyers than was initially being reported.  The media seemed to focus on that in 2021, but lost interest when they saw that the large corporations were not buying as much houses as they thought (or were at least renovating the homes and either re-selling or renting them).  But they missed out on the smaller, local companies and the individuals that were overspending to invest in these houses.  Or the family who sold their overpriced house in Califonria for say $1.5M and could get a similar house in Florida for half that.  Then instead of buying the Florida house and keeping the cash left over, they bought another couple of houses and leveraged themselves to the tilt.

 

Some of the private clubs will take a hit because  they'll lose members and then have to figure out how to replace those members.  Then they'll lower the initiation fee and that will anger the members that paid that much higher initiation fee.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if the launch monitors hurt golf courses as well.  My feeling is that necessities will get very expensive and the luxuries will drop their price.  If you can get one of those at home launch monitor systems for 1/3rd off the normal retail price it may convince people to go to the range and the golf course less often when they can simply play golf on a simulator at their home or in their garage

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

[ChipNRun]

29 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

When I went to CCU in the 90's I think there was between 150-200 people in the PGM program. ... 

 

My old roommate was one of the first people to graduate from the program and I think he was the first to graduate in 4 years.  He was super dedicated and graduated with a near 4.0 GPA.  He then worked as an assistant fora couple of years and then wnet to Florida to be the head pro, but was getting paid peanuts.  He then quit the industry and became an attorney. ...

 

When I was there, about 1/3rd of the PGM students could pass the PAT. ... 

 

These days I've heard that they have less than 30 students in the program.  Heard the same thing about Campbell as well.  The industry is oversaturated and the golf courses treat the assistants like indentured servants and have done it for too long.  There's virtually zero benefit to becoming a PGA Class A professional.  Golf couses only care if you are willing to work ridiculous hours and not put up a fuss and are accountable.  If you want to be the head pro or director of golf, the courses only care about whether you can manage the position.  And golf instruction is more about the people one can draw in to get lessons.  

 

My guess is that the boom will be over come 2023.

Thanks, RH. Excellent insights.

 

WRXers... for more details on what RH is talking about, see this Golf Digest report: ClubPro_GD.docx

 

And since 2016, both Florida State and Clemson have shut down their PGM programs.

Edited July 5, 2022 by ChipNRun
Add shutdown schools.

[golfer07840]

2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Thanks I did not think I had to say the difference between PGAOA and PGA Tour on WRX but you may be correct I guess I needed to clarify that. But they do have to pass their Playability Test (PAT) to obtain their Class A card. 

Genuine curiosity, what is the score usually to pass that test? And I assume it's from like 6,500 yards or so?

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Genuine curiosity, what is the score usually to pass that test? And I assume it's from like 6,500 yards or so?

I forgot the exact formula because it does have to do with the slope rating etc of that course. I think recently they play it around here at sea level at 6200. When I did it that was over 40 years ago and it was a different ball game then. I did not do the PGM thing in fact it did not exist then per say. I did my "time" under my old Man who ran a course and was a Class A himself. I did my PAT at a course in Spartanburg SC which no longer exists. I think the goal was like 155 for 36 holes. I shot way under that because the course was easy where they had the markers and like I said times change and they were pushing for members then.

Since Richie went to CCU he can more than likely tell you what score was required at the time at Quail Creek now the Hackler Course at CCU. That is the college operated course and they also do the turf school there too. Like he said there were quite a few folks that could not pass the PAT. I knew a young lady that tried like 10 times. He parents wanted me to coach her. Now I am not a swing coach type but an evaluation type guy. I watched her and told her folks that she needed a swing and overall game coach not me.

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

When I went to CCU in the 90's I think there was between 150-200 people in the PGM program.  It was a 5 year program where the students would take 4 years of business/marketing courses and get a business/market degree.  Then they'd take 1 year of a couple of extra golf related courses combined with an intership at a local course.

 

My old roommate was one of the first people to graduate from the program and I think he was the first to graduate in 4 years.  He was super dedicated and graduated with a near 4.0 GPA.  He then worked as an assistant fora couple of years and then wnet to Florida to be the head pro, but was getting paid peanuts.  He then quit the industry and became an attorney.

 

When I was there, about 1/3rd of the PGM students could pass the PAT.  Some were quite good like my old roommate (one summer he cleaned my clock playing for money all summer long).  The other 2/3rds were lucky to break 85 and just weren't going to pass the PAT.  I would often be surprised seeing guys around school almost every day and then finding out that they were in the PGM program because I had never seen them on  the eh course or even touching a club.

 

These days I've heard that they have less than 30 students in the program.  Heard the same thing about Campbell as well.  The industry is oversaturated and the golf courses treat the assistants like indentured servants and have done it for too long.  There's virtually zero benefit to becoming a PGA Class A professional.  Golf couses only care if you are willing to work ridiculous hours and not put up a fuss and are accountable.  If you want to be the head pro or director of golf, the courses only care about whether you can manage the position.  And golf instruction is more about the people one can draw in to get lessons.  

 

My guess is that the boom will be over come 2023.  Too many jobs are now calling for employees to come back to the office either full time or part time.  That's going to continue for a while because the cost to transition to fully remote work for your labor force is too great and these companies are also fearful of being under water on their building lease.

 

And obviously the economy is a major problem as well.  I don't think there's going to be a 2008 crash because that was so widespread for different reasons.  But there's going to be a crash IMO.  And in some areas of the country (i.e. Boise, Tampa, Nashville) I think it's going to crash really hard, if not even worse than it did in 2008.

 

I think what has been miseed out on the housing market in particular is that there was much more 'investment' buyers than was initially being reported.  The media seemed to focus on that in 2021, but lost interest when they saw that the large corporations were not buying as much houses as they thought (or were at least renovating the homes and either re-selling or renting them).  But they missed out on the smaller, local companies and the individuals that were overspending to invest in these houses.  Or the family who sold their overpriced house in Califonria for say $1.5M and could get a similar house in Florida for half that.  Then instead of buying the Florida house and keeping the cash left over, they bought another couple of houses and leveraged themselves to the tilt.

 

Some of the private clubs will take a hit because  they'll lose members and then have to figure out how to replace those members.  Then they'll lower the initiation fee and that will anger the members that paid that much higher initiation fee.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if the launch monitors hurt golf courses as well.  My feeling is that necessities will get very expensive and the luxuries will drop their price.  If you can get one of those at home launch monitor systems for 1/3rd off the normal retail price it may convince people to go to the range and the golf course less often when they can simply play golf on a simulator at their home or in their garage

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

Some stuff has changed here since you left. The largest golf group here The Founders Group with 19 courses does not push too much for PGAOA certified pros. They still have a few on staff though. My home course the two owners still have their PGA certifications and pay their dues and do their credit work but I do not know why. Well one of them is the golf coach at Socastee High and you probably know him.

Just now you gave me some food for thought. It stormed yesterday and dropped rain in Bibical proportions we got 6.6 inches in 6 hours yesterday plus it stormed this morning. Right now it is so humid you can cut it with a knife like it is in Florida. I figgured the younger crowd is up in Dirty Myrtle at Top Golf in the cool hitting balls and drinking adult beverages. I hate to say it but I think that may be the future of golf. 

[ChipNRun]

38 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I figgured the younger crowd is up in Dirty Myrtle at Top Golf in the cool hitting balls and drinking adult beverages. I hate to say it but I think that may be the future of golf. 

 Stu, South Korea is already there, but more fragmented. The past decade South Korea has been a major growth area for golf. But, more than half the golfers play indoors only.

 

In Seoul area, lots of bars and coffee shops have a couple of golf simulators off to the side. Golfers bring in their clubs and play an indoors foursome. Add in some midsize indoor golf venues, and there's lots of capacity for indoor golf.

 

(We have a few South Korea stories scattered around WRX archives.)

[RoyalMustang]

15 hours ago, mantan said:

 

Which course is that?  Decent ranges are getting harder and harder to come by. The one at the course by my house is usually beat to hell and sandy by late morning (too many range memberships sold).  The other nearby course uses mats 4-5 days a week. There were two great green grass ranges that closed in the last year. (Knew the owner of one.  He said the offer he got from the land was just too good to pass up.  He was near retirement age and the sale provided him a big nest egg.)

 

Highland Performance Golf and The Golf Ranch are both good green grass ranges. But both are usually packed.

 

I am up in the North Dallas Suburbs: Heritage Ranch has a large range that doesn't have much traffic.  Capacity is 25 people and I never see more than 5 people out there unless it is Saturday morning or something.  There aren't that many good golfers that play there, so there aren't many people practicing. it is one of the reasons I don't play there often, as the pace can be glacially slow due to the bro crowd shooting 110 and taking 20 minutes a hole   

Edited July 5, 2022 by RoyalMustang

[596]

Just before Easter, before the northerners go home, we were seeing over 400 rounds per day during the week.  We have 27 holes and the place was totally mobbed. Once Easter hit and lots of people left we are kind of back to 250 rounds per day.  I can walk on nearly anytime except early mornings.  I don't see a let up of golfers playing.  It always slows down this time of year, especially when it's 92*, 65% humidity and feels like 101.  

 

 

[RoyalMustang]

3 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

When I went to CCU in the 90's I think there was between 150-200 people in the PGM program.  It was a 5 year program where the students would take 4 years of business/marketing courses and get a business/market degree.  Then they'd take 1 year of a couple of extra golf related courses combined with an intership at a local course.

 

My old roommate was one of the first people to graduate from the program and I think he was the first to graduate in 4 years.  He was super dedicated and graduated with a near 4.0 GPA.  He then worked as an assistant fora couple of years and then wnet to Florida to be the head pro, but was getting paid peanuts.  He then quit the industry and became an attorney.

 

When I was there, about 1/3rd of the PGM students could pass the PAT.  Some were quite good like my old roommate (one summer he cleaned my clock playing for money all summer long).  The other 2/3rds were lucky to break 85 and just weren't going to pass the PAT.  I would often be surprised seeing guys around school almost every day and then finding out that they were in the PGM program because I had never seen them on  the eh course or even touching a club.

 

These days I've heard that they have less than 30 students in the program.  Heard the same thing about Campbell as well.  The industry is oversaturated and the golf courses treat the assistants like indentured servants and have done it for too long.  There's virtually zero benefit to becoming a PGA Class A professional.  Golf couses only care if you are willing to work ridiculous hours and not put up a fuss and are accountable.  If you want to be the head pro or director of golf, the courses only care about whether you can manage the position.  And golf instruction is more about the people one can draw in to get lessons.  

 

My guess is that the boom will be over come 2023.  Too many jobs are now calling for employees to come back to the office either full time or part time.  That's going to continue for a while because the cost to transition to fully remote work for your labor force is too great and these companies are also fearful of being under water on their building lease.

 

And obviously the economy is a major problem as well.  I don't think there's going to be a 2008 crash because that was so widespread for different reasons.  But there's going to be a crash IMO.  And in some areas of the country (i.e. Boise, Tampa, Nashville) I think it's going to crash really hard, if not even worse than it did in 2008.

 

I think what has been miseed out on the housing market in particular is that there was much more 'investment' buyers than was initially being reported.  The media seemed to focus on that in 2021, but lost interest when they saw that the large corporations were not buying as much houses as they thought (or were at least renovating the homes and either re-selling or renting them).  But they missed out on the smaller, local companies and the individuals that were overspending to invest in these houses.  Or the family who sold their overpriced house in Califonria for say $1.5M and could get a similar house in Florida for half that.  Then instead of buying the Florida house and keeping the cash left over, they bought another couple of houses and leveraged themselves to the tilt.

 

Some of the private clubs will take a hit because  they'll lose members and then have to figure out how to replace those members.  Then they'll lower the initiation fee and that will anger the members that paid that much higher initiation fee.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if the launch monitors hurt golf courses as well.  My feeling is that necessities will get very expensive and the luxuries will drop their price.  If you can get one of those at home launch monitor systems for 1/3rd off the normal retail price it may convince people to go to the range and the golf course less often when they can simply play golf on a simulator at their home or in their garage

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't understand the logic. The time to buy a rental investment is before the run-up in prices, not during!  

 

We are currently stuck in a rental for another year.  $4800/mo; it is insane for this area. But the house would sell for $800k and property taxes would be $20k/yr. Assuming 1.5 months vacancy/year and management fees/maintenance, you are basically signing on for a 3.5% cash flow plus tax shield benefits (roughly 20K depreciation yearly, so $4k value now), plus appreciation.  The thing is, we just had a 40% run-up in prices, so the house's value may not go anywhere for a decade.  It seems like a poor investment.  Now, if you had bought it for $500k 4 years ago, you are sitting pretty, but should just sell and invest in a better investment at this point.  

[dmay73]

Yes.  The work from home people finally going back to the office.

[mantan]

19 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

I am up in the North Dallas Suburbs: Heritage Ranch has a large range that doesn't have much traffic.  Capacity is 25 people and I never see more than 5 people out there unless it is Saturday morning or something.  There aren't that many good golfers that play there, so there aren't many people practicing. it is one of the reasons I don't play there often, as the pace can be glacially slow due to the bro crowd shooting 110 and taking 20 minutes a hole   

 

Yep, I've played there a few times. I live over in Flower Mound, so it's a bit of a haul.

 

Most courses near here have (Bridlewood, Tour 18, Grapevine, Indian Creek, Lake Park, Tour 18) have packed ranges that are sand pits by midday. (or utilize mats).  I hate the two fantastic green grass ranges in the area closed. But I get it. I'm sure they got a pretty penny for it.

 

[Soloman1]

On 7/5/2022 at 4:26 AM, samwm said:

Is participation in golf a reflection of secular economic trends? That's the more interesting question to me. 

 

I think it's obvious that a percentage of the new, COVID-era players will drop off over time.

 

As we all know, golf's hard, and golf costs lots of money. So that in itself will lead to a participation crunch. And, given the state of the world, it seems obvious that the 'boom' is over.

 

 

 

Canada says: hold my beer, eh?

 

 

 

 

At least it has a nice yard.

[Soloman1]

PAT passing score is 14 over par max for 36 holes. Standard men’s tees with pins in most accessible and easiest locations on greens.

 

Back when I was young, naive and thought I wanted to be a golf pro for my life’s work, I was paired with two guys who had been apprentices for 3 or 4 years as assistant pros. I guess they can’t use the word apprentice anymore.

 

I said good luck on the first tee and they looked at me with scared looks. Both of them were on their 5th or 6th try.

 

I felt sorry for them pretty soon. Neither had a chance of ever passing it in their lifetimes. They had wasted years making less money than a high school kid at McDonalds. It was my first time and birdied the last two holes to be the low player of about 30 guys that test (I even got a check).

 

Unless someone is going to be giving lessons, I thought it was meaningless. Running a golf course takes business and management acumen, not the ability to shoot a random score.

 

Its been that way forever and will probably stay that way forever. I didn’t stay in the program for long. Who wants to work at something for years and you can’t even afford to live on your own. These guys in their mid to late twenties were still living with roommates in dumpy apartments like college kids.

 

But, it’s a way to get cheap labor for a few years for courses before they quit and get a real job. Only 20% will ever make it through the PAT.

 

 

[Warrior42111]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:21 AM, BIG STU said:

Now we have been crowded in this resort area for the 4th. But according to local businesses people are not spending money eating out etc. The beaches were elbo room only until the storms hit. My course is semi private and we have had an influx this summer season on golf now .com because our walk in rates are the cheapest on the beach and so are our grill prices. Now our course is no way as pristine as the resort courses but the rates are affordable. But as SOP some people still complain expecting champaign conditions for beer prices

[rd1959]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:58 AM, BIG STU said:

Some stuff has changed here since you left. The largest golf group here The Founders Group with 19 courses does not push too much for PGAOA certified pros. They still have a few on staff though. My home course the two owners still have their PGA certifications and pay their dues and do their credit work but I do not know why. Well one of them is the golf coach at Socastee High and you probably know him.

Just now you gave me some food for thought. It stormed yesterday and dropped rain in Bibical proportions we got 6.6 inches in 6 hours yesterday plus it stormed this morning. Right now it is so humid you can cut it with a knife like it is in Florida. I figgured the younger crowd is up in Dirty Myrtle at Top Golf in the cool hitting balls and drinking adult beverages. I hate to say it but I think that may be the future of golf. 

I'm surprised that upscale apartment complexes haven't added something like that to their amenities list to go along with the fully equipped gyms and such.

[Warrior42111]

1 hour ago, rd1959 said:

I'm surprised that upscale apartment complexes haven't added something like that to their amenities list to go along with the fully equipped gyms and such.

Thinking about me in my 20s I think I know why haha.

 

Also though gyms, pools etc there's nothing to really steal, or more likely break that costs a lot like a simulator. You would probably need cameras in that area, which then can lead to lawsuits in todays world.

 

[golfer07840]

12 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

PAT passing score is 14 over par max for 36 holes. Standard men’s tees with pins in most accessible and easiest locations on greens.

 

Back when I was young, naive and thought I wanted to be a golf pro for my life’s work, I was paired with two guys who had been apprentices for 3 or 4 years as assistant pros. I guess they can’t use the word apprentice anymore.

 

I said good luck on the first tee and they looked at me with scared looks. Both of them were on their 5th or 6th try.

 

I felt sorry for them pretty soon. Neither had a chance of ever passing it in their lifetimes. They had wasted years making less money than a high school kid at McDonalds. It was my first time and birdied the last two holes to be the low player of about 30 guys that test (I even got a check).

 

Unless someone is going to be giving lessons, I thought it was meaningless. Running a golf course takes business and management acumen, not the ability to shoot a random score.

 

Its been that way forever and will probably stay that way forever. I didn’t stay in the program for long. Who wants to work at something for years and you can’t even afford to live on your own. These guys in their mid to late twenties were still living with roommates in dumpy apartments like college kids.

 

But, it’s a way to get cheap labor for a few years for courses before they quit and get a real job. Only 20% will ever make it through the PAT.

 

 

 

So basically you have to have break 80 from 6,300 yards, give or take. 

[RichieHunt]

Car loan delinquencies are going thru the roof ($1.8 Trillion).  It was at $0.7 trillion in 2010.  46% of car loans are estimated to be 'under water' (owe more than the car is worth).  

 

It's a huge economic recession indicator and also presents a problem for the golf, particularly the millenial generation that is likely contributing to the bad debt and now can't drive to the golf course.  There are also securited backed by the car loans, although not as highly rated as mortgage backed securities were in 2008.

 

 

 

 

RH

[larrybud]

52 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Car loan delinquencies are going thru the roof ($1.8 Trillion).  It was at $0.7 trillion in 2010.  46% of car loans are estimated to be 'under water' (owe more than the car is worth).  

 

It's a huge economic recession indicator and also presents a problem for the golf, particularly the millenial generation that is likely contributing to the bad debt and now can't drive to the golf course.  There are also securited backed by the car loans, although not as highly rated as mortgage backed securities were in 2008.

I'm always amazed at the young'ins I work with who make less than half of what I do, driving a car which cost 4x what mine does. Zero financial acumen. They look at what something "costs per month" instead of what something costs.

[mesquite2]

I am a starter at a 36 hole complex & on this past Friday, Saturday & Sunday we recorded 1,622 rounds. Our carts must be in at sunset & we had a lot of 9 hole carts going out  between 6:30 & 7: 00. My favorite line from these people is " we play really fast, we can make it". When I tell them that we were booked solid on both courses from 6:00 A.M. & show them my tee sheet they are subdued to say the least. We have to chase a good number off the course at sunset. We are now losing about 5-6 minutes a week of daylight so carts have less & less time every week, of course the golfers don't realize this & think we are just messing with them to get them in sooner. So, no golf is not dying around here. ( New Jersey)

[Tanner25]

7 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

Car loan delinquencies are going thru the roof ($1.8 Trillion).  It was at $0.7 trillion in 2010.  46% of car loans are estimated to be 'under water' (owe more than the car is worth).  

 

It's a huge economic recession indicator and also presents a problem for the golf, particularly the millenial generation that is likely contributing to the bad debt and now can't drive to the golf course.  There are also securited backed by the car loans, although not as highly rated as mortgage backed securities were in 2008.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

All I hear is about this economic downturn. But, as a recruiter, people have so many job options and behave poorly (they miss interviews, leave a job after a day or two). I guess it hasn't trickled down to employees yet or is this day coming soon?

Edited July 18, 2022 by Tanner25