Complaints about slow play...

[Anser3]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I don't recall anyone saying it should be a "sprint".  However, imo, a round completed in 4 hours or less is not a sprint.  It is easily accomplished with good management and alert, attentive players.

 

But I've also seen players  who were alert and attentive but also just plain bad and their round took much longer than 4 hours.

[Anser3]

I  guess the  point I was trying to make  is that everybody plays to pay and they presumably enjoy the game. (Akin to "I paid for my own round and you pad for yours.  You mind yours and I will mind mine." )  Unless somebody is intentionally holding people up (i.e.  completely screwing around instead of playing golf), there is not a single person on this forum or anywhere else who is important enough  (though plenty are self-important and legends in their own minds only) to dictate how fast or slow somebody else should play the game.  I understand course marshals have a job to do, but that is entirely different than some blowhard screaming at others they are playing too slow.  This behavior is especially detrimental to new players taking up the game (unless they are extremely gifted, there will be a steep curve for any new golfer to overcome).  One person going nuts  because they are playing slow could be enough to chase the newcomer from the game forever (and in essence shrinking the game, not growing it). 

[Greenie]

I understand everyone pays their money. I believe there comes a tipping point when someone that is playing horribly slow should think of the others on the course and just because I paid my money doesn't cut it anymore. 

 

We had an 8:10 Wed. tee time. There is no way a round should take 5:15 to play. I don't care who you are you are not thinking of anybody but yourself. Three foursomes that were behind us packed it in on hole 16 and left. There were three foursomes on the same tee box from hole 4 on. 

 

When the whole course is backed up like that there is something wrong and the problem isn't the speedsters, the 4 hr people or those that may take the recommended pace of play time of 4:15. If anyone thinks 5:15 is fine for anyone then you are part of the problem.

[Mr. Bean]

On 7/6/2022 at 5:00 AM, 4thand11 said:

They weren't faster than us, that is the point.   At a couple of points they were waiting on us to clear the green.  Had they been in front of us, we may have been waiting a few times on them to clear the green.

 

What was the starting interval? Was it shorter than 10 minutes?

 

In general, if a group behind is waiting for you to clear the green/fairway and you do not need to wait for the group in front of you, you are slower than the group behind you. Unless the starting interval is shorter than what it takes to play an average par3.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

12 hours ago, Anser3 said:

 

But I've also seen players  who were alert and attentive but also just plain bad and their round took much longer than 4 hours.

If there is a group that is playing bad. They are most likely not alert and attentive. Hacking it down the fairway till you hole out each hole is not being alert and attentive. Cause if they were actually alert and attentive. They wouldn't have taken 10 strokes or more to finish a hole. Those 2 words should not be used when it comes to bad golfers. There's got to be a cut off point to where you just tell yourself to pick it up and move on. That right there is being alert and attentive. 

[Double Mocha Man]

26 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

If there is a group that is playing bad. They are most likely not alert and attentive. Hacking it down the fairway till you hole out each hole is not being alert and attentive. Cause if they were actually alert and attentive. They wouldn't have taken 10 strokes or more to finish a hole. Those 2 words should not be used when it comes to bad golfers. There's got to be a cut off point to where you just tell yourself to pick it up and move on. That right there is being alert and attentive. 

 

They have no "rear view mirrors" and never feel pressured to pick up the pace.  They just don't see people with steaming heads behind them. That's why I recommend driving into them. 

 

(J/K on that final sentence)

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Double Mocha Man

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

They have no "rear view mirrors" and never feel pressured to pick up the pace.  They just don't see people with steaming heads behind them. That's why I recommend driving into them. 

 

 

Isn't it a real pleasure when everyone is walking..? 😂

[tboh]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:26 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 Sure they do but one needs to THINK in order to come up with them and THINKING is not one of the assets commonly in use on a golf course. All one does is concentrating on one's OWN play instead of watching what the others do and match one's own actions to the play of the others.

 

Playing rapidly is very easy once you start thinking what you should do and when. But as I said, thinking is a rare occurrence on a golf course.

And ... after you've done this a few times it becomes second nature

 

One of my pet peeves ... group of 4 three w rangefinders & everybody has to measure the same damn shot

[tboh]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:36 AM, Double Mocha Man said:

 

While others in the group are hitting or preparing to hit their approach shot I have already scoped my distance and selected a club. As soon as their shot lands, and perhaps I've commented on it, I step up to the ball, check my aim once, and pull the trigger.

I'm ready while their ball is in the air ... lol

[IndyArcher]

14 hours ago, Anser3 said:

I  guess the  point I was trying to make  is that everybody plays to pay and they presumably enjoy the game. (Akin to "I paid for my own round and you pad for yours.  You mind yours and I will mind mine." )  Unless somebody is intentionally holding people up (i.e.  completely screwing around instead of playing golf), there is not a single person on this forum or anywhere else who is important enough  (though plenty are self-important and legends in their own minds only) to dictate how fast or slow somebody else should play the game.  I understand course marshals have a job to do, but that is entirely different than some blowhard screaming at others they are playing too slow.  This behavior is especially detrimental to new players taking up the game (unless they are extremely gifted, there will be a steep curve for any new golfer to overcome).  One person going nuts  because they are playing slow could be enough to chase the newcomer from the game forever (and in essence shrinking the game, not growing it). 

IMO that’s a ridiculous premise. So someone driving 25 in a 55 with a line of cars behind them has no obligation out of sheer consideration to pull over and let vehicles pass just because they pay taxes? Someone with 108 items in their shopping cart doesn’t have a duty to NOT use the 12 items or less express line simply because they are buying groceries, too? 
 

It’s called common courtesy. A buddy and I played with a dad and his teenage kid yesterday. Dad said it was only the kid’s second time on a course. He played like it. Nice guys for sure and we split off from them and played on ahead. But, on a busy Friday morning they probably should have been on a range, not the course. The dad was giving instruction on the course. It was not the time or place. 
 

If you play slow, then either let people through when needed or pick non-busy times to hit the course. Yes, you pay to play; that does not include a free ticket to inconvenience others. 

[Soloman1]

When I lived in the Chicago suburbs in the early 1980's, "Park District" courses (munis) would hold a lottery in the winter. Foursomes would pull a paper with a starting time on either Saturday or Sunday from a box. They would have that day and time for the season. Had to get a replacement if someone didn't show or dropped out - you paid for four for the season 

 

There was a time clock at the turn and you had to punch a card and turn it in.

 

If you were a group holding things up, you got two warnings. Third strike and your group lost its starting time for the season. Bye. A group on the standby list got the time.

 

Never had a slow play problem at that course. Always reasonable and no whining about it, except by the people who were booted.

[huskydawg]

2 hours ago, tboh said:

One of my pet peeves ... group of 4 three w rangefinders & everybody has to measure the same damn shot

My buddy and I both have a rangefinder and he fed me a bad yardage once on an important par-3 shot and that was the end of that.  I lased it immediately afterwards and saw he gave me a number that was 10 yards short for whatever reason, maybe unsteady hands or he measured it too quickly.

 

I'm responsible for verifying my own yardage, period.  Of course, I'm happy to tell others what I measured if they want to save time or the trouble of measuring it.

[Greenie]

3 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

If there is a group that is playing bad. They are most likely not alert and attentive. Hacking it down the fairway till you hole out each hole is not being alert and attentive. Cause if they were actually alert and attentive. They wouldn't have taken 10 strokes or more to finish a hole. Those 2 words should not be used when it comes to bad golfers. There's got to be a cut off point to where you just tell yourself to pick it up and move on. That right there is being alert and attentive. 

 

I agree..

 

Years ago I reconnected with a childhood friend. During our conversation he found out I played golf. He had recently taken up the game and wanted to join our group when we had an opening. The first thing I did was lay out our groups rules. I told him we were not going to be looking for your balls all day. I'll give you a bucket full. You are going to pick up at double par. He says how do I know if I am improving if I am picking up at double par? I said when you are no longer picking up at double par. I told him anyone will play with a beginner but no one will want to play with a slow player. I watched that guy begin around 130 and progress to low 90's over time. He never slowed our group down much at all. 

[Double Mocha Man]

59 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

If you were a group holding things up, you got two warnings.

 

I've told this story before, but it fits the "two warnings" scenario.  I have a friend in L.A. who is famously one of the slowest golfers in the universe.  But a good player.  A dozen or so years ago I treated him and another friend to a round at Pebble Beach.  With individual caddies.

 

On #9 they sent an assistant pro out to speed him up.  We were already 2 holes behind.  On #10 another assistant pro came out to try to get Thomas to pick up the pace.  On #12 the head pro came out and Thomas became irate(ish) and told the pro he had paid good money for his round and wasn't going to speed up.

[Greenie]

17 minutes ago, huskydawg said:

My buddy and I both have a rangefinder and he fed me a bad yardage once on an important par-3 shot and that was the end of that.  I lased it immediately afterwards and saw he gave me a number that was 10 yards short for whatever reason, maybe unsteady hands or he measured it too quickly.

 

I'm responsible for verifying my own yardage, period.  Of course, I'm happy to tell others what I measured if they want to save time or the trouble of measuring it.

I use a Bushnell app and wingman. Front center and back is good enough for me. I gave a guy the yardage on a hole last week on a par 3. I was on and he was short. He starts in on I gave him the wrong yardage.  I said it worked for me. He was adamant it gave him the wrong yardage. I said go buy your own GPS or do your own figuring. 

 

I think everyone should have their own rangefinder of some sort. What I don't like is when everyone has to discuss what they come up with,debate it, and then everyone needs to shoot the yardage again.

[chisag]

13 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

On #9 they sent an assistant pro out to speed him up.  We were already 2 holes behind.  On #10 another assistant pro came out to try to get Thomas to pick up the pace.  On #12 the head pro came out and Thomas became irate(ish) and told the pro he had paid good money for his round and wasn't going to speed up.

 

 

... Playing yesterday with a 3:36 tee time we knew anything over 4 hours was gonna cut it close. The group in front was oblivious to others, a twenty something group that seemed more interested in talking on the tee than hitting their shots. On #6 they were having a virtual corporate meeting with the cart girl as we approached the #5 green. After chipping up and putting out they were still passing out drinks and talking with the cart girl and nobody was on the par 4 hole. I politely said "If you guys could catch up to the group in front it would be appreciated by us and the 3 groups behind us hoping to finish before dark" ... "sorry, sorry just took a little time to get our drink orders in, we will speed up." 

... They didn't with more of the same til #17 on a 600 yd par 5 and the group in front was walking of the green and 2 of them had still not teed off. I said "The groups behind us won't finish and we will be lucky if we do and you are an entire par 5 behind ' ...  "Dude, they were in the middle of the fairway and we had to wait til tee off. We paid just like you and are gonna have fun and not be rushed!" No use saying anything more with that clueless self entitled response. We finished in the dark and watched the 3 groups behind us have to drive by because these selfish golfers couldn't be bothered to keep pace. 4:20 twilite time with 4 groups of golfers behind them. 

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Playing yesterday with a 3:36 tee time we knew anything over 4 hours was gonna cut it close. The group in front was oblivious to others, a twenty something group that seemed more interested in talking on the tee than hitting their shots. On #6 they were having a virtual corporate meeting with the cart girl as we approached the #5 green. After chipping up and putting out they were still passing out drinks and talking with the cart girl and nobody was on the par 4 hole. I politely said "If you guys could catch up to the group in front it would be appreciated by us and the 3 groups behind us hoping to finish before dark" ... "sorry, sorry just took a little time to get our drink orders in, we will speed up." 

... They didn't with more of the same til #17 on a 600 yd par 5 and the group in front was walking of the green and 2 of them had still not teed off. I said "The groups behind us won't finish and we will be lucky if we do and you are an entire par 5 behind ' ...  "Dude, they were in the middle of the fairway and we had to wait til tee off. We paid just like you and are gonna have fun and not be rushed!" No use saying anything more with that clueless self entitled response. We finished in the dark and watched the 3 groups behind us have to drive by because these selfish golfers couldn't be bothered to keep pace. 4:20 twilite time with 4 groups of golfers behind them. 

 

Someone needs to write the book... "The Oblivious Golfer".

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Someone needs to write the book... "The Oblivious Golfer".

 

 

... So true. I am always amazed at those that I get paired up with and when we fall behind I say "it is stacking up behind us and there are 2 groups on the tee and we didn't have to wait" and they almost always look back with an eyes open blank stare like the thought of anyone else being on the course just never entered their mind. Oblivious is so accurate. 

[Anser3]

3 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

IMO that’s a ridiculous premise. So someone driving 25 in a 55 with a line of cars behind them has no obligation out of sheer consideration to pull over and let vehicles pass just because they pay taxes? Someone with 108 items in their shopping cart doesn’t have a duty to NOT use the 12 items or less express line simply because they are buying groceries, too? 
 

It’s called common courtesy. A buddy and I played with a dad and his teenage kid yesterday. Dad said it was only the kid’s second time on a course. He played like it. Nice guys for sure and we split off from them and played on ahead. But, on a busy Friday morning they probably should have been on a range, not the course. The dad was giving instruction on the course. It was not the time or place. 
 

If you play slow, then either let people through when needed or pick non-busy times to hit the course. Yes, you pay to play; that does not include a free ticket to inconvenience others. 

 

3 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

IMO that’s a ridiculous premise. So someone driving 25 in a 55 with a line of cars behind them has no obligation out of sheer consideration to pull over and let vehicles pass just because they pay taxes? Someone with 108 items in their shopping cart doesn’t have a duty to NOT use the 12 items or less express line simply because they are buying groceries, too? 
 

It’s called common courtesy. A buddy and I played with a dad and his teenage kid yesterday. Dad said it was only the kid’s second time on a course. He played like it. Nice guys for sure and we split off from them and played on ahead. But, on a busy Friday morning they probably should have been on a range, not the course. The dad was giving instruction on the course. It was not the time or place. 
 

If you play slow, then either let people through when needed or pick non-busy times to hit the course. Yes, you pay to play; that does not include a free ticket to inconvenience others. 

 

 

I never said they shouldn't let other faster players play through.  Out of decency should they? YES.  Absolutely yes.  But they do not have an obligation to do that.   Just like there is nothing wrong with a faster player politely asking to play through. That is perfectly fine.  But they shouldn't feel some sense of entitlement to play through just because they play faster and /or better.   Are there better times for new players to hit the course?  Sure and courses should encourage them to come at these less-busy times.  But any mindset that suggests they should never be on the course at other times because they may slow up play is pompous at best. 

 

To go along with your grocery analogy if I have somebody directly behind me that has considerably fewer items than I do, do I tell them to go in front of me?  Yes...almost every time. Do I ever expect the same in return?  No.

 

There is a course near me that has a 5 hole practice/beginner's course  (you play it twice for $6).  I'm not sure if many courses have something like this, but they absolutely should.  The course consists of a par 4 260 yard hole  (20 the second time on it), a 195 yard par 3, a 165 yard par 3, a 310 yard par 4 (270 on the second time) and a 135 yard par 3. 

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:36 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

What was the starting interval? Was it shorter than 10 minutes?

 

In general, if a group behind is waiting for you to clear the green/fairway and you do not need to wait for the group in front of you, you are slower than the group behind you. Unless the starting interval is shorter than what it takes to play an average par3.

A lot of our slow play issues are due to course setup and management.  Some courses (Punta Espada, for example), do not let you tee off until the group ahead of you is on the green.  That creates a gap to allow for the natural ebb and flow of the game.  Course management does not want to admit it but they are often a big part of the slow play problem.

[Greenie]

55 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

A lot of our slow play issues are due to course setup and management.  Some courses (Punta Espada, for example), do not let you tee off until the group ahead of you is on the green.  That creates a gap to allow for the natural ebb and flow of the game.  Course management does not want to admit it but they are often a big part of the slow play problem.

 A lot of courses I play do that.

The course we played Wed. the starter held us until the group was on the green. That was nice until hole four when we were on the tee with the group in front of us and the group ahead of them had just teed off. After that it was two to three groups on every tee.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

A lot of our slow play issues are due to course setup and management.  Some courses (Punta Espada, for example), do not let you tee off until the group ahead of you is on the green.  That creates a gap to allow for the natural ebb and flow of the game.  Course management does not want to admit it but they are often a big part of the slow play problem.

 

I do not follow. If it is a par4 that is precisey the correct way to proceed.

 

But it all depends on the starting intervals. If the interval is too short there is no way to avoid queues and slow play. But that is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about not falling behind.

[Golferpaul]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not follow. If it is a par4 that is precisey the correct way to proceed.

 

But it all depends on the starting intervals. If the interval is too short there is no way to avoid queues and slow play. But that is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about not falling behind.

Sorry. I thought we were talking about slow play.  And slow play is as much the fault of course management as it is the golfers.

[Mr. Bean]

27 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Sorry. I thought we were talking about slow play.  And slow play is as much the fault of course management as it is the golfers.

 

Maybe so, but we have no tools to work on that side of the coin so why don't we stay on the side we have tools for..?

 

And FWIW, I truly disagree with your last sentence there. But let us not start that discussion as our cultures are sooooooooooooooooo different.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not follow. If it is a par4 that is precisey the correct way to proceed.

 

But it all depends on the starting intervals. If the interval is too short there is no way to avoid queues and slow play. But that is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about not falling behind.

Even with a 10 minute gap in between each group. Once you get to the 2nd hole that 10 minute interval is gone. Like for example I just finished a 5+ hour round. And the only reason it didn't turn into a 6+ hour round is because the group in front of my group cut them off to the 10th while they got drinks and food. And we did the same. Front 9 took 3 1/2 hours. Back 9 took 2 hours. But to go back to the beginning of the round. The starter didn't let us tee off till the group had finished the green. By the time we finished the 1st hole and drove to the 2nd hole. We were already waiting behind the group in front of us all because of 3 out of the 4 guys drove there balls in separate directions into the trees. That's 9+ minutes of guys searching for there balls. And I'm pretty sure they were passed there allowed search time If we had time to finish the 1st hole. And get to the 2nd hole. And they haven't even hit there 2nd shot yet. I am 1000000000% sure its a people problem. Not how the course is laid out, not interval gaps. Its literally the people not being alert and attentive to others. And also there is just no way to fix slow play unless you find the right time at the turn to cut them off. You are gonna have your good days where the round keeps a good pace. And then there are other days where it's just gonna suck. How the round goes will solely depend on people.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Even with a 10 minute gap in between each group. Once you get to the 2nd hole that 10 minute interval is gone. Like for example I just finished a 5+ hour round. And the only reason it didn't turn into a 6+ hour round is because the group in front of my group cut them off to the 10th while they got drinks and food. And we did the same. Front 9 took 3 1/2 hours. Back 9 took 2 hours. But to go back to the beginning of the round. The starter didn't let us tee off till the group had finished the green. By the time we finished the 1st hole and drove to the 2nd hole. We were already waiting behind the group in front of us all because of 3 out of the 4 guys drove there balls in separate directions into the trees. That's 9+ minutes of guys searching for there balls. And I'm pretty sure they were passed there allowed search time If we had time to finish the 1st hole. And get to the 2nd hole. And they haven't even hit there 2nd shot yet. I am 1000000000% sure its a people problem. Not how the course is laid out, not interval gaps. Its literally the people not being alert and attentive to others. And also there is just no way to fix slow play unless you find the right time at the turn to cut them off. You are gonna have your good days where the round keeps a good pace. And then there are other days where it's just gonna suck. How the round goes will solely depend on people.

 

Mainly I agree and you proved it in your story. The group in front of you fell behind while searching for their balls. They should have either take back the time they lost or let you play through.

[Soloman1]

Sometimes people can’t find their ball.

 

Sometimes a hole gets backed up.

 

Sometimes some courses take longer than others.

 

Sometimes people are not as good as you.

 

Sometimes people take longer than others because shooting 100, plus three practice swings before each, is a lot of swings.

 

Sometimes there are self-absorbed jerks on the course, on the road, in a store, at your work or in your home.

 

Sometimes you should accept that sometimes life gets in your way.

 

You’re outdoors, playing a game you enjoy. If 15 more minutes sometimes bothers you that much, you might have a problem.

 

Relax a little. Get some perspective. You’re playing golf, not knee deep in a rice patty in a place without running water, or digging in a landfill for some metal to sell.

[Greenie]

25 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Sometimes people can’t find their ball.

 

Sometimes a hole gets backed up.

 

Sometimes some courses take longer than others.

 

Sometimes people are not as good as you.

 

Sometimes people take longer than others because shooting 100, plus three practice swings before each, is a lot of swings.

 

Sometimes there are self-absorbed jerks on the course, on the road, in a store, at your work or in your home.

 

Sometimes you should accept that sometimes life gets in your way.

 

You’re outdoors, playing a game you enjoy. If 15 more minutes sometimes bothers you that much, you might have a problem.

 

Relax a little. Get some perspective. You’re playing golf, not knee deep in a rice patty in a place without running water, or digging in a landfill for some metal to sell.

  

15 mins more based on what? My group usually finish around 3:30. To us that is a nice easy not rushed round. Do we get mad at 15 mins more? 3:45 NO. 30 mins more at 4 hrs? NO At 4:15 getting there. 4:30 YES. My group has an 80's, 90's and 2 100 players. 

 

We played yesterday late (last minute decision)at 3:10 pm. The course we almost empty but they had another foursome going out at 3:00. Nice guys and they let us go first. I glad they did because when were riding up 18 fairway they were on 13 green putting. If you know you are going to be slow let others play through.

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

... or digging in a landfill for some metal to sell.

 

... that metal pays for my golf.

 

And here's a thought:  Allow 5-6 hours for your round of golf.  And subtract that extra hour or two from sex with your partner that evening.  (And while you're waiting on the tee for the fairway to clear chat with your partners about their children, BBQ techniques or stock picks)

[Mr. Bean]

54 minutes ago, Greenie said:

  

My group usually finish around 3:30.

 

Yes, I know such courses exist where there are 1-2 groups per hour if even that. Easy to play quickly. Been there, seen that. I have even played on a company owned private course alone with a friend of mine a few times. Had nobody in front of us. Or behind 😎

 

BUT, so many golf courses are busy and 3:30 is simply a dream, no matter how fast some people think they are.