Complaints about slow play...

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Fine, I don't agree with him. Or you.

 

Marshaling cannot change the design of the course or how it's played. Or the trouble some golfers can get into, especially when the group in front of them is playing unusually well.

 

1st hole at one of my regulars. Shortish par 5, just long enough so most can't get home in 2 and will lay up to within about 50 yards of the hole in 2 while group 1 is on the green.

 

1st group is putting while 2nd group is driving forward to their balls 50 yards from the green.

 

2nd group waits a very short time while the last guy in group 1 putts out.

 

So from this point you now have the 2nd group playing a very short, 50 yard "par 3", AND they've started their "par 3" before the 1st group gets to the tee of their real par 3, a much longer and more difficult hole than the guys now playing behind them.

 

90+% of the time the 2nd group HAS to be waiting for the 1st group to finish #2.

 

There are plenty of other hole combos/issues like this.

 

Short dogleg par 4 6th. 1st group on the green. 2nd group 2 guys "lay up" in the fairway and the other 2, able to fly the dogleg and hit the green have to wait until the green clears.

 

Next group (#3) finishes the easy/short par 4 5th and is now waiting on that same 6th tee for the last 2 guys (who can clear the dogleg) from group 2 who are waiting for the green to clear.

 

12 is a very difficult dogleg with water right and OB left. If the 1st group plays it well (quickly) and the 2nd group has a couple of guys get wet, or just get in trouble, often the 1st group is on the 13th green (short par 4 downwind), and sometimes even done with 13 by the time the 2nd group gets to the 13th tee.

 

Play a (busy) course often enough and you will see the same backups and same larges spaces between groups.

 

Round after round after round.

 

Now, you can submit suggestions for how a marshal can help any or all of this - and I'll be happy to pass your suggestions on to the golf course.

 

 

 

There are such holes on many golf courses and yet the rounds can be played with flexibility and fair pace. Temporary waiting on one hole due to design will be compensated on subsequent holes. And if not, extending the time between tee-offs is an excellent way to solve this very minor problem. Studies have shown that increasing the interval from 10 to 11 minutes will shorten the average throughput time and extending it to 12 minutes even more. In fact, the interval should never be shorter than what it takes to play the hardest par3. Otherwise you will always get groups packed on that particular tee.

 

So there are ways if there is will. Often money talks and the courses want to have as many players on the course at the same time as possible and do not give a s**t about throughput time. That is how you make those five hour rounds happen.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:54 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

First, pingfool wrote "should not be" and I agree with that.

Second, it CAN be helped and there are tools for that. It is called marshalling.

 

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

There are such holes on many golf courses and yet the rounds can be played with flexibility and fair pace. Temporary waiting on one hole due to design will be compensated on subsequent holes. And if not, extending the time between tee-offs is an excellent way to solve this very minor problem. Studies have shown that increasing the interval from 10 to 11 minutes will shorten the average throughput time and extending it to 12 minutes even more. In fact, the interval should never be shorter than what it takes to play the hardest par3. Otherwise you will always get groups packed on that particular tee.

 

So there are ways if there is will. Often money talks and the courses want to have as many players on the course at the same time as possible and do not give a s**t about throughput time. That is how you make those five hour rounds happen.

 

Moving the goal posts ? You said the problem could be taken care of by "marshaling". I disagreed and told you why.

 

Now you're suggesting leaving more time in between groups.

 

Make up my mind, will ya ?

 

I looked up 4 local and 1 course up in NY to see the gaps in starting times. 3 of them were 8 minutes apart, the old course up in NY was (surprisingly), 9 minutes, and 1 local one, the highest priced course of the local ones no less, was 7.

 

But you finally hit on something at the end.

 

Studies have shown that people want to earn as much on their investments as possible - and golf course operators, until long rounds hurt their bottom lines, aren't giving up 20 or more % of their income.

 

10, 11, 12 may happen in Finland but cash is king here and demand is still high and NOBODY, at least not @ public courses, is going to your numbers and give up that kind of income.

 

At least not when demand outstrips supply. And while demand may have peaked, it is still high and the golf courses, some of which struggled pre-Covid, are striking while the iron is (still) hot.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Moving the goal posts ? You said the problem could be taken care of by "marshaling". I disagreed and told you why.

 

Now you're suggesting leaving more time in between groups.

 

Make up my mind, will ya ?

 

I looked up 4 local and 1 course up in NY to see the gaps in starting times. 3 of them were 8 minutes apart, the old course up in NY was (surprisingly), 9 minutes, and 1 local one, the highest priced course of the local ones no less, was 7.

 

But you finally hit on something at the end.

 

Studies have shown that people want to earn as much on their investments as possible - and golf course operators, until long rounds hurt their bottom lines, aren't giving up 20 or more % of their income.

 

10, 11, 12 may happen in Finland but cash is king here and demand is still high and NOBODY, at least not @ public courses, is going to your numbers and give up that kind of income.

 

At least not when demand outstrips supply. And while demand may have peaked, it is still high and the golf courses, some of which struggled pre-Covid, are striking while the iron is (still) hot.

 

So.... you are stuck with those five hour rounds over there and there is nothing to be done about it, right? So why do these threads where people (from over there) keep complaining about slow play evolve if there is nothing to be done about it?

[Newby]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Studies have shown that people want to earn as much on their investments as possible - and golf course operators, until long rounds hurt their bottom lines, aren't giving up 20 or more % of their income.

 

10, 11, 12 may happen in Finland but cash is king here and demand is still high and NOBODY, at least not @ public courses, is going to your numbers and give up that kind of income.

 

At least not when demand outstrips supply. And while demand may have peaked, it is still high and the golf courses, some of which struggled pre-Covid, are striking while the iron is (still) hot.

If there really is the demand why don't operators increase their starting gaps (happier customers) and increase their charges (maintaining their income).

If the demand continues the operators could then open more facilities to take the unsatisfied demand.

[lefty1978]

All my slow play aggravations stopped when I joined a private club. You never see 4+ hr rounds and most members walk.

 

I usually tee off at 830am and me and my three some are finished at 1130am. No rushed shots, just playing nice pace, ready to hit when its your turn.

 

This week I played with some friends at a local public course. Nice course, but notorious for slow play. Teed off at 816am, and finished at 1250pm. We had to wait on every shot. Three things I observed were..

 

1. Hackers need to move up a tee box (or 2), so when they mis hit their driver (which they will), they're not 200+ out on every par 4. 

2. Need to be ready to hit when it's your turn, if someone is still looking for their ball, play ready golf.

3. Stop with do overs!!!!

[eugkim]

So I played with my son at my club a few weeks ago. To ease play, I check the tee times on the club's website. There are 3 courses, so I find an opportune window where there might be a gap in play that I can squeeze into. I noticed that there was  a 90 minute opening, but I couldn't get to there in time, so I had 2 groups ahead. The caddie master and starter know me well, and they gave me permission to start on 3. There was a twosome that just teed off on 2. They saw us going off 3 and, next thing you know, the starter is driving up to us as we're teeing off on 4. He apologized for approaching, but wanted to let me know that the twosome called him to complain that we cut in. At this point, they're not even in the fairway on 3. He said that it was ridiculous, but he felt I should know. As we're going up 6, I see them (a couple of young guys) on the 4th tee playing from the back tees and they're both short and sideways. Finished the round playing behind a foursome that wouldn't let us through for the last 4 holes and still finished 4 holes ahead of them. Spoke to the caddie master and starter afterwards, and we agreed that those guys are the worst - first to complain that they're going to get screwed by someone else's slow play, but playing the wrong tees and the LAST people who would let a quicker group through.

[Double Mocha Man]

32 minutes ago, eugkim said:

So I played with my son at my club a few weeks ago. To ease play, I check the tee times on the club's website. There are 3 courses, so I find an opportune window where there might be a gap in play that I can squeeze into. I noticed that there was  a 90 minute opening, but I couldn't get to there in time, so I had 2 groups ahead. The caddie master and starter know me well, and they gave me permission to start on 3. There was a twosome that just teed off on 2. They saw us going off 3 and, next thing you know, the starter is driving up to us as we're teeing off on 4. He apologized for approaching, but wanted to let me know that the twosome called him to complain that we cut in. At this point, they're not even in the fairway on 3. He said that it was ridiculous, but he felt I should know. As we're going up 6, I see them (a couple of young guys) on the 4th tee playing from the back tees and they're both short and sideways. Finished the round playing behind a foursome that wouldn't let us through for the last 4 holes and still finished 4 holes ahead of them. Spoke to the caddie master and starter afterwards, and we agreed that those guys are the worst - first to complain that they're going to get screwed by someone else's slow play, but playing the wrong tees and the LAST people who would let a quicker group through.

 

Similar happened to me about 2 weeks ago.

 

I was in a threesome with a slowish twosome in front of us. And a slow foursome was in front of them. Fast twosome behind us.

 

Got to the par 3 #6 hole and there was a three group backup waiting on the tee.

 

So we invited the twosome behind us to join us to form a five-some thereby freeing up space on the course.  Roughly half a hole.  Just trying to speed up the overall pace of play.

 

We remained right on the backs of the folks ahead of us.

 

We quit after nine holes and the Pro shop told us that someone behind us had phoned in and complained about a fivesome. Go figure. We finished almost an entire hole ahead of the group behind us.

[rogolf]

57 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Similar happened to me about 2 weeks ago.

 

I was in a threesome with a slowish twosome in front of us. And a slow foursome was in front of them. Fast twosome behind us.

 

Got to the par 3 #6 hole and there was a three group backup waiting on the tee.

 

So we invited the twosome behind us to join us to form a five-some thereby freeing up space on the course.  Roughly half a hole.  Just trying to speed up the overall pace of play.

 

We remained right on the backs of the folks ahead of us.

 

We quit after nine holes and the Pro shop told us that someone behind us had phoned in and complained about a fivesome. Go figure. We finished almost an entire hole ahead of the group behind us.

I would do the same about a fivesome, regardless of their pace of play, and expect the pro shop to act on it.  Fivesomes are not permitted at our club.

[Golferpaul]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:49 AM, pingfool said:

There should not be an open hole on a busy golf course

I don't agree.  In real life, golf foursomes ebb and flow.  They do not play at exactly the same pace all the time.  Even fast golfers have slower holes and faster holes.

 

There are many reasons why a hole becomes open and that's OK.

 

I've played many courses where the starter will not let you tee off on the first hole (par 4) until the group in front of you is on the green.  That creates a small gap that allows groups to "ebb and flow" without always waiting for the group ahead.  

[Double Mocha Man]

19 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I would do the same about a fivesome, regardless of their pace of play, and expect the pro shop to act on it.  Fivesomes are not permitted at our club.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of fivesomes. But in this case it sped up golf for everyone behind us.  How can you be opposed to that? 

 

You must be that guy who comes to a full stop at every stop sign, in the middle of the countryside, without another vehicle within a mile.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Double Mocha Man

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of fivesomes. But in this case it sped up golf for everyone behind us.  How can you be opposed to that? 

 

You must be that guy who comes to a full stop at every stop sign, in the middle of the countryside, without another vehicle within a mile.

Yep, that's what the sign says, and at our club fivesomes are not permitted.

And I'm not apologetic for either.

[Double Mocha Man]

20 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Yep, that's what the sign says, and at our club fivesomes are not permitted.

And I'm not apologetic for either.

 

Well, then I'm putting a sign in my front yards that says, "Put $100 in my mailbox" every time you drive by.  😁

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Well, then I'm putting a sign in my front yards that says, "Put $100 in my mailbox" every time you drive by.  😁

I do have a Monopoly game which includes $100 bills, but I don't know where your house is, maybe somewhere just past "Go"?  🙃

Edited September 18, 2022 by rogolf

[Double Mocha Man]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I do have a Monopoly game which includes $100 bills, but I don't know where your house is, maybe somewhere just past "Go"?  🙃

 

It's the house with the sign in the front yard... on Park Place... 😀

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

It's the house with the sign in the front yard... on Park Place... 😀

For those in the CONGU area - Park Lane is a property in the UK version of the classic Monopoly boardgame. It is named after a major road in Westminster, Central London. Along with Mayfair, it forms the Dark Blue colour set. Park Lane is the second most expensive property on a standard UK board and subsequently has some of the highest rent prices, only behind Mayfair's £2000 rent when developed with a Hotel. Its similarly-named American counterpart is Park Place.

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, Newby said:

If there really is the demand why don't operators increase their starting gaps (happier customers) and increase their charges (maintaining their income).

If the demand continues the operators could then open more facilities to take the unsatisfied demand.

 

Come on, Newby!! You are suggesting a solution that is way too easy in modern economy! To satisfy the demand with new products? Oh no, that would bring competitors in my sand box... No, it is better to keep the customers dissatisfied and yet proud to have the privilege to play on a crowded course.

[StudentGolfer4]

Club I’m most familiar with allows for groups of 5-6 as long as you play in 4 hours or fewer and let faster groups play through. The pro or assistant pros are always on the tee box when a group tees off and I’ve never seen them prevent a group of more than four going off. A group of 10 show up for the 8am game? No problem. They just go off as 2 fivesomes or 4 and a 6. After 8-9 years I’ve never seen it become an issue. 
 

With that said, if the rule is no groups larger than 4 then by all means enforce it. My buddies club is very strict about it and it’s a non issue because they enforce it every time. Funny they do have a pace of play issues though. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by StudentGolfer4

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So.... you are stuck with those five hour rounds over there and there is nothing to be done about it, right? So why do these threads where people (from over there) keep complaining about slow play evolve if there is nothing to be done about it?

 

Never said nor implied as much. But you already know that.

 

But to answer your question,,,,,,,, because those who start those threads want to play faster ? 

 

That's my best guess.

 

 

13 hours ago, Newby said:

If there really is the demand why don't operators increase their starting gaps (happier customers) and increase their charges (maintaining their income).

If the demand continues the operators could then open more facilities to take the unsatisfied demand.

 

I really can't say. While I understand some basic business principles, I've never actually owned a business.

 

But it seems to me keeping customers happy is important. By both accommodating their reasonable requests (e.g. pace of play) and charging them an "appropriate" amount. While not mutually exclusive these 2 things are somewhat in opposition to each other.

 

Charging "too much" and customers may not come back. Tolerate slow play and customers may not come back.

Rush groups to catch up, especially when there's a "natural" gap, no matter how politely you do it, and customers may not come back.

 

It's a balancing act and one I don't have an answer for.

 

As far as opening a new facility goes,,,,,, I assume you mean another golf course, yes ? I have no idea where they'd put it or how much it would cost, but sure, that's a(nother) way to go.

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

ut to answer your question,,,,,,,, because those who start those threads want to play faster ? 

 

 

But when they are offered solutions they say "that cannot be done".

 

So what's the use?

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 9/18/2022 at 7:58 AM, rogolf said:

I would do the same about a fivesome, regardless of their pace of play, and expect the pro shop to act on it.  Fivesomes are not permitted at our club.

 

IMHO fivesomes should not be permitted to go off the 1st tee together. That's just asking for trouble and slow play. 

 

But if a fivesome forms naturally as an ANSWER to slow play in front of them, I wouldn't make a stink. As long as they can keep up, what's the harm? Per @Double Mocha Man it benefits the rest of the players on the course by having one less group to take up roughly 1/2 a hole of physical space. 

 

Obviously there can be gray areas. If two groups who know each other go off as a 3 and a 2 with the unstated intention to join as a 5 as soon as they get to the 2nd tee, then you have a problem because they're trying to find a loophole in the rule. But that'll never happen on the public courses where I play because you'll get a single joined to the 3 and another twosome with the 2... 

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

But when they are offered solutions they say "that cannot be done".

 

So what's the use?

 

Wanna go 'round in circles some more ?

 

Your "solution" was marshals. That's not a solution.

 

How about a course for each skill level ? By handicap ? By distance off the tee ?

 

Maybe build 18 par 3s; no water, no trees, no hills or dales, and have large flat greens.

 

The "answer" is educating (ALL) the players AND getting them all to play at the same pace.

 

Of course that still doesn't address the difference in skill level, difference in course design, difference in time it takes each player to play a shot, etc, etc, etc. But hey, ya can't have everything.

 

Good luck with your efforts. 👍

[Double Mocha Man]

38 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

difference in time it takes each player to play a shot

 

That's the one thing that can be addressed.

[Mr. Bean]

49 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Wanna go 'round in circles some more ?

 

Your "solution" was marshals. That's not a solution.

 

How about a course for each skill level ? By handicap ? By distance off the tee ?

 

Maybe build 18 par 3s; no water, no trees, no hills or dales, and have large flat greens.

 

The "answer" is educating (ALL) the players AND getting them all to play at the same pace.

 

Of course that still doesn't address the difference in skill level, difference in course design, difference in time it takes each player to play a shot, etc, etc, etc. But hey, ya can't have everything.

 

Good luck with your efforts. 👍

 

I also offered some other solutions but you seem to reject them being fixed with my first proposal. No worries, this is just a discussion with opinions.

[pingfool]

Another topic that 6 pages in has lost all contact with context of OP - derailed by those that find a problem with any and all suggestions. 
Try pulling this one apart. 10minute tee time intervals with added starter discretion to hold off 1st tee until group in front reaches the green. 
Can something go wrong? Sure. That’s what the marshal is for. A group that is not keeping up with the group in front of them can catch up if instructed. It is possible with ready golf and intent to close the gap.

Unfortunately too often you have groups with different goals for the day - especially at publics. Show me a private club with a slow play problem and I’ll bet you have a weak pro shop or board of directors, or both. 

 

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Unfortunately too often you have groups with different goals for the day - especially at publics.

 

 

... I have always felt people are either considerate or inconsiderate. Considerate golfers keep up with the group in front or if they fall behind a hole because of lost balls, etc they pick up the pace. Inconsiderate people not only don't keep up with the group in front of them, they just don't care about anyone but their group. Considerate golfers do not rush the group in front or scream at them to pick up the pace but politely ask them if they could please catch up to the group in front because the course is backing up behind them. Inconsiderate golfers scream at groups, ride up on them when they are hitting and worst case actually hit into them to "give them a message" because again, they just don't care about anyone but their own group.

 

[Double Mocha Man]

2 hours ago, pingfool said:

Unfortunately too often you have groups with different goals for the day - especially at publics.

 

That is the key sentence.  Not me, I'm fast, but folks have different agendas.  And sometimes we have to try to appreciate that...

Edited September 19, 2022 by Double Mocha Man

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I also offered some other solutions but you seem to reject them being fixed with my first proposal. No worries, this is just a discussion with opinions.

 

Sorry if I appeared to be stuck on "marshals", but I did address your "expanding the times between groups" solution.

 

The problem is $$$ (not including private clubs of course).

 

Time is money.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

That's the one thing that can be addressed.

 

Sure it can. How would you propose to address it ? Do you propose a ranger go out with every group and time every player ?

 

You take, iirc, 8 seconds from the time the previous player's ball is done rolling, until you hit your shot.

 

I have no fear of being contradicted suggesting (again ?) you are the exception, not the rule.

[Double Mocha Man]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sure it can. How would you propose to address it ? Do you propose a ranger go out with every group and time every player ?

 

You take, iirc, 8 seconds from the time the previous player's ball is done rolling, until you hit your shot.

 

I have no fear of being contradicted suggesting (again ?) you are the exception, not the rule.

 

There have to be members in the group that will suggest to others how to play "ready golf".  How to not take 6 practice swings...

[uitar9]

I was placed with three nice folks on Saturday. A single and a couple in a cart. Us singles were walking. 

 

We started on time and had to wait on 4 or 5 holes for the three walkers in front of us to get out of our tee shot range. 

 

We finished the 18. I got back to the car, packed up and was driving home when I checked the clock in the car. 3 hours 50 minutes. 

 

Yet it felt like we were waiting for hours.

 

I figure if I don't have an extra 6 hours to play 18 holes I shouldn't be playing. I gotta get there, warm up, play and get home. I gotta remember not to blame my poor planning on the folks in front of me.